The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

clevtrev wrote: »

it may have been said before but the Dublin team is made up of a core of players that have been in position now since 2011-13.

If you look at the 2011 team there are still 12 in the current squad and the 2013 team has 17 still in the squad. This is a golden age for Dublin but it is not based on a massive squad of players. There area few new additions to the squad over the last few years but the success of the squad has helped to keep the team together and playing for longer. Players involved in unsuccessful teams find it more difficult to keep playing into their later years.

Also if the Dublin setup is so all powerful you would wonder why Kerry minors are going for 5 in a row this year.

Kerry were beaten in 1982 by Offaly and '83 by Cork. Genuine competitiveness was restored and crowds started to rise again.

Competitiveness equals bigger crowds. Its a well known fundamental of any sport.

BonnieSituation

ClanofLams wrote: »

Fairly sure I saw somewhere Mayo lads were taking a bus down this year so there wouldn’t be any mileage.

In previous years they took turns driving, they are hugely ambitious guys, I would think they would prefer to be to leave for training at 6pm and be home resting up at 9.30pm than knocking a few euro out of mileage.

You saw it in an Irish Times article in the last few days. Was linked here.

BonnieSituation

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Kerry were beaten in 1982 by Offaly and '83 by Cork. Genuine competitiveness was restored and crowds started to rise again.

Competitiveness equals bigger crowds. Its a well known fundamental of any sport.

Any comments on the claims I refuted earlier or are you hoping they've gone away?

Beechwoodspark

munster87 wrote: »

I’ve read an awful lot of shíte on gaa threads here the past few years but this wins. Fair play.

See my above post.

Happy to believe the 2 separate sources that told me.

No time for your sneering.

Gachla wrote: »

No, you didn't. What is factually incorrect about the graph?

What changed in Dublin GAA is that they got a huge number of professional coaches and appointed highly paid officers to oversee the new structures they wanted to put into place. GDO's who have been there from the start have noted the incredible change in standards from when they started to today. They say it's like night and day. Obviously, this will have a major impact on the standard of players available. This is at club level and inter county level. The results of this are there for all to see. 80+ titles in 14 years.

You can massage stats and charts which ever way you want.
I have already explained gachla be inspired make a new chart - look beyond your narrow prism - there are other variables intangibles.
Be inspired open your eyes and ears to them - soak it all up - you should be glad to be witnessing history.

You need to study the following

Leadership:

https://www.iidmglobal.com/expert_talk/expert-talk-categories/managing-people/leadership_talent/id22634.html

Inspiration:

https://hbr.org/2011/11/why-inspiration-matters

Dublin GAA's focus on youth:

https://www.eventbrite.ie/o/dublin-gaa-coaching-amp-games-development-7236498365

Read how Dublin made a mess of things prior to this era:

https://www.rte.ie/culture/2018/1022/1005923-reviewed-dublin-the-chaos-years-by-neil-cotter/

It is not solely down to funding and professional coaches - it is a much greater thing then that.

A time when all structures and plan work in unison real focus on youth with a strategy

http://www.stsylvesters.ie/files/the-blue-wave.pdf

As I said in previous posts this was not always the case - it was neglected.

All your answers are there if you are willing to read it and take your eyes off your colored chart repeating your same mantra.

The high horse brigade

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You’ve asked and answered your own question there.

I’d say Chris Barrett is (at least) semi-pro given the amount of money he’ll be making off mileage.

You didn't even read the ariticle as he says he gets a bus

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It sounds awfully like something a certain Brazil-based journalist would say.

What was it he called Jim Gavin?

He could not spell that word either then blamed himself for not editing it.

Then he completely changed his tweet - because even he knew it was in poor taste and went on the defensive....

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

And as for this so called exceptional manager let’s see how exceptional Jim is if he had to to manage literally any other county with some way normal resources

I very much doubt he would ever take that challenge on. I hope he proves me wrong.

Let him manage a mid level county with mid level resources (a world away from the ludicrous advantages what Dublin enjoys) to success. That would be a fitting challenge would it not?

I suspect though he will never take up that challenge. Too much like real work for him?

Yep and until he does that he will always be miles behind Micko.

Brian Clough is an example of a great soccer manager, turned two mid ranking teams into English league champions.

You'd wonder how Guardiola would fare with a mid ranking team.

Its the same in any sport, its rare that a manager can reproduce success across teams unless of course they have a substantial budget backing them up.

Beechwoodspark

Miles behind Micko is right

The sense I get from J Gavin is he knows well what side his bread is buttered on (ie he knows how well he has it in Dublin compared to everyone else)

it wouldn’t do at all to tarnish his reputation by chancing managing literally any other county where he wouldn’t have the same advantages that he has now.

What he doesn’t realise tho is that outside Dublin his reputation isn’t worth talking about because there’s a huge asterisk beside the Dublin wins since the financial doping started.

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Yep and until he does that he will always be miles behind Micko.

Brian Clough is an example of a great soccer manager, turned two mid ranking teams into English league champions.

You'd wonder how Guardiola would fare with a mid ranking team.

Its the same in any sport, its rare that a manager can reproduce success across teams unless of course they have a substantial budget backing them up.

Micko will always be number 1 manager for what he did with various teams and he always improved them

This Dublin team will be the number 1 team in the history of the game as they have changed football.
Gavin being the humble man he is is more than happy for the players to get the credit and will say that Micko is the number one manager.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

Kerry were beaten in 1982 by Offaly and '83 by Cork. Genuine competitiveness was restored and crowds started to rise again.

Competitiveness equals bigger crowds. Its a well known fundamental of any sport.

Any comments on the claims I refuted earlier or are you hoping they've gone away?

You must think I have no life outside of boards.ie. I come on here occassionally when I have time.

So dial it back there pal.

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

You can massage stats and charts which ever way you want.
I have already explained gachla be inspired make a new chart - look beyond your narrow prism - there are other variables intangibles.
Be inspired open your eyes and ears to them - soak it all up - you should be glad to be witnessing history.

You need to study the following

Leadership:

https://www.iidmglobal.com/expert_talk/expert-talk-categories/managing-people/leadership_talent/id22634.html

Inspiration:

https://hbr.org/2011/11/why-inspiration-matters

Dublin GAA's focus on youth:

https://www.eventbrite.ie/o/dublin-gaa-coaching-amp-games-development-7236498365

Read how Dublin made a mess of things:

https://www.rte.ie/culture/2018/1022/1005923-reviewed-dublin-the-chaos-years-by-neil-cotter/

It is not solely down to funding and professional coaches - it is a much greater thing then that.

A time when all structures and plan work in unison real focus on youth with a strategy

http://www.stsylvesters.ie/files/the-blue-wave.pdf

As I said in previous posts this was not always the case - it was neglected.

All your answers are there if you are willing to read it and take your eyes off your colored chart repeating your same mantra.

It is not solely down to funding, you of course need to have good people overseeing things too in management admin etc

But funding is a substantial factor in why Dublin footballers both men and women’s are enjoying their best decade in history. And why their hurlers are enjoying their best decade in sixty plus years.

The massive disparity in funding cannot be justified.

ClanofLams wrote: »

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You’ve asked and answered your own question there.

I’d say Chris Barrett is (at least) semi-pro given the amount of money he’ll be making off mileage.

Fairly sure I saw somewhere Mayo lads were taking a bus down this year so there wouldn’t be any mileage.

In previous years they took turns driving, they are hugely ambitious guys, I would think they would prefer to be to leave for training at 6pm and be home resting up at 9.30pm than knocking a few euro out of mileage.

And who owns the bus? Mayo or one of the players?

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

And who owns the bus? Mayo or one of the players?

I have no idea. I would presume it’s just rented out for each session, why?

ClanofLams wrote: »

It is not solely down to funding, you of course need to have good people overseeing things too in management admin etc

But funding is a substantial factor in why Dublin footballers both men and women’s are enjoying their best decade in history. And why their hurlers are enjoying their best decade in sixty plus years.

The massive disparity in funding cannot be justified.

But yet they are only really holding thier own to Rugby in the capital - there was a fear that Dublin would become a Soccer and Rugby city.
That was the justification for the funding to promote the games in the largest county in Ireland in the face of competition from other sports.

bobbysands81

The high horse brigade wrote: »

You didn't even read the ariticle as he says he gets a bus

Did he say he didn’t take mileage?

Last Stop

All this nonsense about Dublin doing 10 in a row and they will break a record by doing half of that! As others have rightly pointed out, Kerry won the last 5 minors which must tell at some stage.

Dublin has had a population advantage since the foundation of the GAA (granted not as big as today) so I don’t think that this is the key to their current success although it certainly helps. If it was all down to population then the hurling team would have achieved more that a single semi final since 1961! Granted they have improved significantly in recent years but their record is extremely poor.

Arguably the reason for their dominance in Gaelic is because the game itself. If you look at the current game, a good team could be made up a goalie, 11 athletes and 3 forwards who can kick a score. There is no real need for anyone in the back or middle third to be able to kick the ball nowadays. This makes it easier for Dublin as it’s very easy to find a natural athlete as opposed to a natural footballer. That is by no means a dig at Dublin or any other team as there is some incredible players out there but the game is dying because the game itself is being degraded.
A case in point is MDMA. He is potentially player of the year for the second time and I reckon I could count on one hand the number of points he has kicked in championship games. That’s not saying he isn’t player of the year but you have to question how you can have a game where the footballer of the year struggles to kick the ball accurately!

Unfortunately the focus of the modern game has moved towards fitness and gym work over actual football. This is natural as part of the modernisation of the game (the same thing is happening in hurling) but there should be rules to counteract it. Whether that’s a limit on hand passes or incentives to kick the ball, something must be done to bring skill back into the game. Will the stop Dublin in the short term? Probably not as the current group of players are brilliant footballers but it will create a more level playing field.

The other thing to note is that several teams have shown ways to beat Dublin this year. Meath, Cork and Mayo have all been competitive for periods of their games and done a lot of things that show Dublin’s weaknesses. The high ball into the full forward is certainly an area where they struggle and yet very few teams have kicked ball in. Kerry will almost certainly try it!

Another thing that really frustrates me Dublin currently is their comfort in their routine particularly in Croke Park. Watching the parade vs Mayo and the Dublin players were laughing and joking etc.
Jim Gavin is a complete perfectionist and has everything down to a tee. The only manager you could argue is comparable to him is Joe Schmidt. And there in lies a weakness. When Ireland were beaten by Scotland a few years ago, a big part of the aftermath focused on the Scottish police escort bringing the team bus a longer way meaning Ireland were late to the stadium. Why has no team even tried to disrupt Dublin’s rhythm? Whether that’s not coming out of the dressing room at the right time, warming up in front of the hill (Dublin don’t have a Devine right to warm up there) etc etc. I know it sounds very cynical but if Dublin are so far ahead you have to do something to level the playing field.

Finally, referees need to get harsher on Dublin! The amount of cyclical fouling and simulation they get away with compared to other teams is unbelievable. While Cillian O’Connor was stupid to do what he did, there way no need for the Dublin player to go down the way he did. MDMA was also extremely lucky on a number of occasions and in particular when the ref he committed the next foul after ref warned him for persistent fouling.
If you compare their treatment to that of Kilkenny towards the end of their dominance it’s polar opposites. Despite their dominance, they rarely get black cards or pulled up for stopping quick frees etc. Remember that the goal that stopped the Kerry 5 in a row was a blatant free out yet wasn’t given. I wonder if the same thing happened if Kerry were about to score against Dublin?

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

But yet they are only really holding thier own to Rugby in the capital - there was a fear that Dublin would become a Soccer and Rugby city.
That was the justification for the funding to promote the games in the largest county in Ireland in the face of competition from other sports.

Competition from other sports is not a problem unique to Dublin - Galway hurlers two of their best minors from last years all Ireland winning team to Connacht rugby. Roscommon footballers lost Jack Carty to Connacht. Tiernan O’Halloran was a talented footballer who would have been one of the best prospects in Galway at his age and chose to focus on rugby.

Jarlath Fallon was offered a part time contract by Connacht back in the day - they had a limited number of full time contracts at that time, if he gotten offered one of those he says he would have taken it and Galway might be down two All Irelands.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Did he say he didn’t take mileage?

What would he be eligible to take mileage for??? He doesn’t incur expense on the bus. Whatever you are trying to insuinate is proven untrue by the fact that those lads were more than content to give up mileage.

tikkahunter

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Humble????

Humble????

Are you for real?

Dublin have crazy and mad advantages over every other county.

Inherent advantages in terms of population and facilities as it is the capital city.

then to add petrol to the fire HUGE financial advantages

Yet He personally and the Dublin set up revel in it.

What’s humble about that?

The rest of the country is jumping up and down screaming for the inequality to be addressed and we supposed to respect a supposedly humble and polite man?

Get real. Again, you and your like are fooling nobody.

Go and have a look what that man does for charity in his spare time , the little of he has and come back and tell me he is not humble.Look at how the players conduct themselves and how down to earth and hard working they are not one ego in the group compare that to the teams of the early 00’s players like Vaughan with his dyed blonde hair going around shaping like they where something, Dublin teams like that where never going to succeed as they thought they where better than what they were. Gavin would not let ****e like that go on under his management .

Last Stop

ClanofLams wrote: »

I have no idea. I would presume it’s just rented out for each session, why?

At that rate, why would they not just train in Dublin? Isn’t that what Abbotstown is for?
While its not ideal to split team trainings for a team like Mayo between two camps (I.e. Dublin and Mayo), surely for mid week sessions it would make sense for the coaches to travel instead of getting 20 lads to drive 4 hours each way.

ClanofLams wrote: »

ToBeFrank123 wrote: »

And who owns the bus? Mayo or one of the players?

I have no idea. I would presume it’s just rented out for each session, why?

Its an expense.

bobbysands81

ClanofLams wrote: »

Fairly sure I saw somewhere Mayo lads were taking a bus down this year so there wouldn’t be any mileage.

In previous years they took turns driving, they are hugely ambitious guys, I would think they would prefer to be to leave for training at 6pm and be home resting up at 9.30pm than knocking a few euro out of mileage.

They’re huge ambition is matched by the huge amounts spent on the team. They only spend marginally less than the Dubs do who are a genuine dual-county (granted figures are from 2017 season).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/revealed-here-is-how-much-your-county-spent-on-its-teams-in-2017-with-dublin-only-the-second-biggest-spenders-36576369.html

€1.542m

€30,000 per week is spent on preparing Mayo teams for inter-county glory... by far the most for counties that don’t also play hurling at the top table.

Last Stop wrote: »

At that rate, why would they not just train in Dublin? Isn’t that what Abbotstown is for?
While its not ideal to split team trainings for a team like Mayo between two camps (I.e. Dublin and Mayo), surely for mid week sessions it would make sense for the coaches to travel instead of getting 20 lads to drive 4 hours each way.

They used to split camps until the end of college/start of championship time. That Irish times article came up as subscriber only for me so I’m not sure if it does into details but I presume they felt that splitting camps wasn’t the best way if they adapted to having them all in Mayo this year.

Last Stop wrote: »

ClanofLams wrote: »

I have no idea. I would presume it’s just rented out for each session, why?

At that rate, why would they not just train in Dublin? Isn’t that what Abbotstown is for?
While its not ideal to split team trainings for a team like Mayo between two camps (I.e. Dublin and Mayo), surely for mid week sessions it would make sense for the coaches to travel instead of getting 20 lads to drive 4 hours each way.

They have to plan and practice for certain situations I'd imagine in games, eg pressing up on kickouts. Collective training is hugely important these days.

bobbysands81

ClanofLams wrote: »

What would he be eligible to take mileage for??? He doesn’t incur expense on the bus. Whatever you are trying to insuinate is proven untrue by the fact that those lads were more than content to give up mileage.

Where did it say they gave up mileage?

Do we know that lads that are car-pooling or jumping on a bus are not either entitled to or claim mileage? I’m not for a second trying to insinuate that Mayo players are doing something wrong or against the rules, I am asking whether we know that they aren’t claiming mileage from Dublin to Mayo regardless of how they get there?

odyssey06

Last Stop wrote: »

Arguably the reason for their dominance in Gaelic is because the game itself. If you look at the current game, a good team could be made up a goalie, 11 athletes and 3 forwards who can kick a score. There is no real need for anyone in the back or middle third to be able to kick the ball nowadays. This makes it easier for Dublin as it’s very easy to find a natural athlete as opposed to a natural footballer. That is by no means a dig at Dublin...
Unfortunately the focus of the modern game has moved towards fitness and gym work over actual football. This is natural as part of the modernisation of the game (the same thing is happening in hurling) but there should be rules to counteract it. Whether that’s a limit on hand passes or incentives to kick the ball, something must be done to bring skill back into the game. Will the stop Dublin in the short term? Probably not as the current group of players are brilliant footballers but it will create a more level playing field.

Not dismissing your other points but just noting really this needs to be done regardless of how many all irelands any one team is winning because it would be for the long term popularity of the game.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

They’re huge ambition is matched by the huge amounts spent on the team. They only spend marginally less than the Dubs do (grantees figures are from 2017 season).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/revealed-here-is-how-much-your-county-spent-on-its-teams-in-2017-with-dublin-only-the-second-biggest-spenders-36576369.html

€30,000 per week is spent on preparing Mayo teams for inter-county glory... by far the most for counties that don’t also play hurling at the top table.

Fair enough. I’m not a Mayo man so I don’t really care but in fairness 2017 was a year they went all around the country in qualifiers, presumably that adds serious expense?

bobbysands81 wrote: »

ClanofLams wrote: »

Fairly sure I saw somewhere Mayo lads were taking a bus down this year so there wouldn’t be any mileage.

In previous years they took turns driving, they are hugely ambitious guys, I would think they would prefer to be to leave for training at 6pm and be home resting up at 9.30pm than knocking a few euro out of mileage.

They’re huge ambition is matched by the huge amounts spent on the team. They only spend marginally less than the Dubs do who are a genuine dual-county (granted figures are from 2017 season).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/revealed-here-is-how-much-your-county-spent-on-its-teams-in-2017-with-dublin-only-the-second-biggest-spenders-36576369.html

€1.542m

€30,000 per week is spent on preparing Mayo teams for inter-county glory... by far the most for counties that don’t also play hurling at the top table.

Realiatically you should be including the cost of GDOs and the like at the Dublin clubs when counting the cost of preparing a team. Every Dublin senior player and youngster is supported by a GDO at their club and sometimes two. This is a cost that is never factored in.