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Jp McManus and John Magnier Investment Success

NoteAgent

I was wondering what the Forum thought about Jp McManus and John Magnier's success in investing over the last 20 years or so? I didn't know whether to post this in here or the business section so apologies in advance.

I thought it would be interesting to post this as there is not a single book on either figure but plenty on Smurfit, O'Leary, etc. (Probably because they go largely unnoticed by the media).

If return percentages were publicly available on their gains I'm sure it would be over 20% every year over the last 20 years or so (putting them up there with Warren Buffett, etc)

I put together a list of what I could find on their investments (for inspiration for ordinary investors more than anything).

Here's a list of what I've been able to find (Sorry for all the links. Just thought I'd put them in if people wanted more info):

Equities:
Sale of Man Utd shares - My guess here is they heard that Malcolm Glazer was interested in buying the club so they bought in aggressively and sold it off to him. It's estimated they made about €125 million on their 30% stake. Link: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/magnier-and-mcmanus-to-make-125m-from-man-utd-1.441274

M&B Pubs - I'm not sure on how much exactly they have made on this. They initially bought a stake in 2007 and then purchased alot more at the bottom of the market in 2008. https://www.reuters.com/article/mitchellsbutlers-elpida/magnier-and-mcmanus-up-stake-in-mitchells-butlers-idUSL1170426120080411

Devro - Magnier went alone on this one. Estimated that he doubled his money. -https://www.independent.ie/business/magnier-quits-sausage-maker-devro-but-timing-was-off-26299970.html

Jp McManus stake in Indian Bank - I'm not sure what he paid for this stake but it could potentially worth a fortune considering its the fastest growing bank in India. https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/jp-mcmanus-is-linked-with-stake-in-fastest-growing-indian-bank-30013071.html

Barchester Healthcare: Magnier, McManus and Desmond are looking for £2.5bn for the Nursing Home Group
https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/2-5bn-payday-for-magnier-desmond-and-mcmanus-37124771.html

Property:
€1bn sale of Paris office block in 2016. They payed €660m for it in 2007 (presumably using debt).
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/jp-mcmanus-and-john-magnier-sell-paris-building-for-1bn-1.2908759

Sloan Capital: This is a property vehicle they have used to buy prime real estate in New York and London in the past along with Limerick developer Aidan Brooks.
https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/magnier-mcmanus-spend-300m-on-unilevers-hq-25896184.html
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/business-news/kendals-in-80m-sale-1035571
They sold off alot of their New York portfolio a few years ago - no doubt at a huge profit.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/companies/irish-investor-in-new-york-retail-property-selling-spree-1.2540103?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fbusiness%2Fcompanies%2Firish-investor-in-new-york-retail-property-selling-spree-1.2540103

Art:
Magnier made world headlines when it was rumoured he was behind the sale of a Modgiliani painting which sold for a record $157m at Sotheby's last year.
https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/art-and-design/john-magnier-s-modigliani-fetches-157-2m-at-sotheby-s-1.3495715

Even using the most conservative estimate, they have probably made €700-800m between them over the last 20 years.
Unbelievable!
Do you think they use advisers or is it their own skill? Maybe even luck?

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littlevillage

Its easy to make money when you have lots of it to begin with ... I would be more interested in JP McManus's early days where he was a small time book maker and gambler

NoteAgent

littlevillage wrote: »

Its easy to make money when you have lots of it to begin with ... I would be more interested in JP McManus's early days where he was a small time book maker and gambler

Well from the few interviews he's done it looks like he quit the bookies business when he realised that a bookie is forced to bet on everything whereas a gambler can be selective on what he bets on. If he a loses significant amount of money on a bet he has the discipline to walk away...there will be other days and other bets. That takes serious discipline.

He also has a mathematical brain and can spot a mispriced bet better than most.

These are fairly good qualities to have in the currency markets and it has paid off big time. There was rumours swirling around for years that he made a fortune on the devaluation of the mexican peso in 1994 but was never confirmed. Here's an old article about more gains he made on currencies. Apparently Joe Lewis (Owner of Spurs FC) got him into trading...https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/mcmanus-banks-25m-on-forex-bets-25955012.html

Dual wheels

Interesting post, you can throw Dermot Desmond into the mix as well... there’s a reason there are no books about these guys, let’s just say it’s widely believed that the origins of their wealth isn’t exactly on the up and up... you look at any major deal done in this country and they were involved in it, from the sale of the telecom eireann site to when denis o Brien got the leg up with the sale of the mobile phone license, but these guys are shrewd operators they fly below the radar, anybody in Ireland who generated extreme wealth, they are all inextricably linked and it’s a closed circle

NoteAgent

Dual wheels wrote: »

Interesting post, you can throw Dermot Desmond into the mix as well... there’s a reason there are no books about these guys, let’s just say it’s widely believed that the origins of their wealth isn’t exactly on the up and up... you look at any major deal done in this country and they were involved in it, from the sale of the telecom eireann site to when denis o Brien got the leg up with the sale of the mobile phone license, but these guys are shrewd operators they fly below the radar, anybody in Ireland who generated extreme wealth, they are all inextricably linked and it’s a closed circle

The report on that Telecom Eireann site showed nothing illegal took place. Seems to me that DD basically took a % as a brokers fee just like any other deal. The main beneficiary of that sale was UK Billionaire Joe Lewis anyway.

As for the DOB phone licence, Desmond provided some equity which again is totally normal. If he didnt go in on the deal, some private equity fund probably would have.

What i like about the 3 lads (Magnier, Desmond, McManus) is that they kept there head down during the Celtic Tiger while all of these "celebrity developers" loved to make the front pages and get all the attention (Dunne, Ronan, etc). Theres a sense of class about them that these other wannabes dont have

Dual wheels

NoteAgent wrote: »

The report on that Telecom Eireann site showed nothing illegal took place. Seems to me that DD basically took a % as a brokers fee just like any other deal. The main beneficiary of that sale was UK Billionaire Joe Lewis anyway.

As for the DOB phone licence, Desmond provided some equity which again is totally normal. If he didnt go in on the deal, some private equity fund probably would have.

What i like about the 3 lads (Magnier, Desmond, McManus) is that they kept there head down during the Celtic Tiger while all of these "celebrity developers" loved to make the front pages and get all the attention (Dunne, Ronan, etc). Theres a sense of class about them that these other wannabes dont have

Ah comparing the 3 lad to the likes of Sean Dunne and Johnny Ronan is like comparing a primary school maths test to an honors degree
They are so clever that anything they do looks above board and because of that they stay below the radar but take it from me you do not get to their levels without stepping over the boundary

NoteAgent

Dual wheels wrote: »

Ah comparing the 3 lad to the likes of Sean Dunne and Johnny Ronan is like comparing a primary school maths test to an honors degree
They are so clever that anything they do looks above board and because of that they stay below the radar but take it from me you do not get to their levels without stepping over the boundary

Is this your view on all successful people?

I've just given several examples of successful investments they've made which are very ordinary and are assets that virtually everyone has in their portfolio (equities, property, etc). Did they cheat on those too?

I'd be interested to hear what excuse you have for Michael O' Leary being successful?

KaneToad

They've benefitted hugely from favourable tax breaks on stud fees. A nice little helping hand from the Irish state - ie you and me...

NoteAgent

KaneToad wrote: »

They've benefitted hugely from favourable tax breaks on stud fees. A nice little helping hand from the Irish state - ie you and me...

JP's equine interests has lost him money overall actually. This hobby of his costs him millions of euro every year. As for Magnier, you're right he has benefited but on the other hand he brings in hundreds of millions in revenue every year into the country, employs thousands both directly and indirectly and has turn Ireland into the leading producer of thoroughbreds in the world.

the-island-man

It also helps that JP is tax resident in Geneva so through the double taxation treaty he's only liable for a flat rate of 20% income tax on any income earned in Ireland.
Also Switzerland's capital gains tax is 0% which works nicely for his trading business.

Dual wheels

NoteAgent wrote: »

JP's equine interests has lost him money overall actually. This hobby of his costs him millions of euro every year. As for Magnier, you're right he has benefited but on the other hand he brings in hundreds of millions in revenue every year into the country, employs thousands both directly and indirectly and has turn Ireland into the leading producer of thoroughbreds in the world.

Lol do you really think J.P. Mc loses millions!!! It’s a tax offset
These guys have it all sewn up, they benefited greatly from state subsidies and state deals yet don’t pay a cent tax here
On Michael o Leary, he’s a different fish, he got to where he is through pure determination and hard graft and a lot of luck along the way, the other boys got to where they are through shrewdness and an ability to know the right people and circumvent the law

ScottCapper

Dual wheels wrote: »

Lol do you really think J.P. Mc loses millions!!! It’s a tax offset
These guys have it all sewn up, they benefited greatly from state subsidies and state deals yet don’t pay a cent tax here
On Michael o Leary, he’s a different fish, he got to where he is through pure determination and hard graft and a lot of luck along the way, the other boys got to where they are through shrewdness and an ability to know the right people and circumvent the law

They still create thousands of jobs and do a load of charitable work. Quit being so negative it will get you absolutely no where..

Odelay

Dual wheels wrote: »

Lol do you really think J.P. Mc loses millions!!! It’s a tax offset
These guys have it all sewn up, they benefited greatly from state subsidies and state deals yet don’t pay a cent tax here
On Michael o Leary, he’s a different fish, he got to where he is through pure determination and hard graft and a lot of luck along the way, the other boys got to where they are through shrewdness and an ability to know the right people and circumvent the law

Horses can’t be a tax off set because it is tax exempt.
Some bar stool lads think call something a tax offset is the way to make millions. It doesn’t work that way, some hard work and smart thinking is involved too.

NoteAgent

JP should be going down as one of the greatest financial traders ever (up there with Druckenmiller, Soros, Tudor Jones, etc) but people would rather gloss over his genius and put his success down solely to his tax situation.
Fun fact: You have to actually make gains in order to be taxed in the first place.

Dual wheels

ScottCapper wrote: »

They still create thousands of jobs and do a load of charitable work. Quit being so negative it will get you absolutely no where..

You are mistaking fact for negativity, in fact I say fair play to them, if I had a way of dodging tax and knew the right people who could cut corners for me I’d do the exact same, there’s more people scrounging off the state than there is avoiding tax, they create loads of jobs and don’t forget J.P. gave every county 100k for their gaa clubs last year.... don’t forget though Pablo Escobar and el chappo were 2 of the most charitable people in the world, charity offers you 2 things, good public image and sweet tax breaks!!!

Dual wheels

NoteAgent wrote: »

JP should be going down as one of the greatest financial traders ever (up there with Druckenmiller, Soros, Tudor Jones, etc) but people would rather gloss over his genius and put his success down solely to his tax situation.
Fun fact: You have to actually make gains in order to be taxed in the first place.

Lol J.P. never traded in his life other than on the pony’s

marvin80

Dual wheels wrote: »

Ah comparing the 3 lad to the likes of Sean Dunne and Johnny Ronan is like comparing a primary school maths test to an honors degree
They are so clever that anything they do looks above board and because of that they stay below the radar but take it from me you do not get to their levels without stepping over the boundary

Do tell us more random punter from the internet :rolleyes:

NoteAgent

Dual wheels wrote: »

You are mistaking fact for negativity, in fact I say fair play to them, if I had a way of dodging tax and knew the right people who could cut corners for me I’d do the exact same, there’s more people scrounging off the state than there is avoiding tax, they create loads of jobs and don’t forget J.P. gave every county 100k for their gaa clubs last year.... don’t forget though Pablo Escobar and el chappo were 2 of the most charitable people in the world, charity offers you 2 things, good public image and sweet tax breaks!!!

You haven't stated any fact though lol. JP is fully tax compliant and isn't "circumventing the law".
Why would he pay taxes here if he doesn't owe any taxes here? He pays taxes where he generates income i.e. Switzerland.

Should all the plasterers and builders who emigrated to Australia still be paying taxes back to Ireland even though they don't generate income here anymore?

Sounds like you have an issue with the system rather than the people.

Odelay

Dual wheels wrote: »

Lol J.P. never traded in his life other than on the pony’s

Are you confused with a different JP?

NoteAgent

Dual wheels wrote: »

Lol J.P. never traded in his life other than on the pony’s

There are multiple sources proving he does. I've provided one of them earlier in the thread.

Whereas you have provided no evidence that he has broken any laws :rolleyes:

Dual wheels

NoteAgent wrote: »

You haven't stated any fact though lol. JP is fully tax compliant and isn't "circumventing the law".
Why would he pay taxes here if he doesn't owe any taxes here? He pays taxes where he generates income i.e. Switzerland.

Should all the plasterers and builders who emigrated to Australia still be paying taxes back to Ireland even though they don't generate income here anymore?

Sounds like you have an issue with the system rather than the people.

LOL

ScottCapper

JP is a legend

the-island-man

NoteAgent wrote: »

but people would rather gloss over his genius and put his success down solely to his tax situation.
Fun fact: You have to actually make gains in order to be taxed in the first place.

Not sure if this is in reference to my post. I didn't mean it in a negative way. I just mean part of his success is in the fact that he has based himself in a jurisdiction that suits his activities.

Spending a 183\184 days of the year in a different jurisdiction away from family and friends wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.

NoteAgent

the-island-man wrote: »

Not sure if this is in reference to my post. I didn't mean it in a negative way. I just mean part of his success is in the fact that he has based himself in a jurisdiction that suits his activities.

Spending a 183\184 days of the year in a different jurisdiction away from family and friends wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea.

No I was talking about Dual Wheels' posts.

I agree that his tax avoidance is quite extreme but he isn't breaking any laws.

Paying less tax allows him to compound his capital quicker but you could put a million other people in his position and using the same advantages and they're not going to be able to get JP's results. What I mean is he is clearly gifted at what he does.

StolenKrone

JP is about as dubious as Mansfield was. There's a lot going on behind the scenes; like most that can get 100+ million together in this country.

ScottCapper

JP made his money abroad why should he pay it here?

NoteAgent

StolenKrone wrote: »

JP is about as dubious as Mansfield was. There's a lot going on behind the scenes; like most that can get 100+ million together in this country.

Spoken like a true commie!

"That guy has more money than me therefore he must have broken the law to get rich because theres's no way he's smarter than me"

marvin80

A lot of scurrilous accusations being made with absolutely no proof to back it up.

badboyblast

Mods should close this thread, absolute nonsense thread.

ScottCapper

NoteAgent wrote: »

Spoken like a true commie!

"That guy has more money than me therefore he must have broken the law to get rich because theres's no way he's smarter than me"

Our country is being taken over by ****ing lefties who want everything for free and complain left right and center. socialism doesn't work JP and manfield should be motivational to people if anything! Jealousy is a bitch

Dual wheels

StolenKrone wrote: »

JP is about as dubious as Mansfield was. There's a lot going on behind the scenes; like most that can get 100+ million together in this country.

Thank you! Finally someone on this thread that’s not a sheep and has something between the ears
Fair play to every one of them but going around saying what great men they are is just pathetic, they did very well for themselves but they are no saints let me tell you