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"Non book readers" - Season 8 Episode 6 "The Iron Throne" - Spoilers post 2 forw

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Note anything after this post may contain spoilers for the episode; do not read or open this thread until you have watched the whole episode!!!

This is ONLY about the specific episode! No information from any other source but listed below are allowed to be posted but book related information is allowed as well as the lore from the DVDs. Anything relating to interviews or articles directly related to this episode can be posted with a spoiler tag.

The "Next Episode" and any speculation on what may come in the future episodes should be put in the appropriate stickied Season 8 speculation thread; any funny pictures from the episode should be posted in this thread until Wednesday rather than the funny picture thread.

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namloc1980

danmci wrote: »

Where were all the other lords and nobleman of Westeros entitled to vote for a King? I'm sure they'd be fine knowing a vote took place without them and a few nobodies (davos, sam etc.) got to vote. Joffrey's ascension to the throne was more legitimate.

I'd day if you could check in a few months after Episode 6 the whole of Westeros is likely in open civil war. Sansa probably just about ok in the North but the rest will be fighting to claim the 6 kingdoms for themselves with zero loyalty to Bran who just got parachuted in out of nowhere.

crazy 88

Where were all the other lords and nobleman of Westeros entitled to vote for a King? I'm sure they'd be fine knowing a vote took place without them and a few nobodies (davos, sam etc.) got to vote. Joffrey's ascension to the throne was more legitimate.

Sending Jon to the night's watch? They surely all knew it served no purpose as the wildlings were no longer enemies and the white walkers were killed. Even if another threat were to emerge there's a big gaping hole in the wall for anyone to walk through.

How did Yara just waltz back to the Iron Islands and take them while Euron their true king was still alive? They just let her take it? He seemed pretty popular:

PinaKolada

It was such a lazy ending. I cannot believe how terrible the writing is compared to a few seasons ago.

Ignore Dany's suddenly going from a liberator to literally being Hitler and the worst tyrant Westeros had ever seen and Jon blindly following along and letting it all happen and dumbly repeating she's the queen despite absolutely everything he's ever done has shown his character would never in a million years do that.

Flash forward from Jon killing Dany which was so predictable it killed any hint of sadness over the death of one of the most loved characters in TV history to a comedy sitcom starring the bungling Lord Edmure. Greyworm ruling Kings Landing with the King of the North imprisoned. Tyrion still in chains and who was scheduled for execution before Dany died, is literally allowed by Greyworm (who'd been cutting throats every chance he got) to put forth a new king which was Jons brother, who exonerated Tyrion and named him his right hand man! And Greyworm just accepts it.

Bran who was all but a vegetable up to that point saying he's not Bran Stark anymore and he doesn't really feel anything says he's traveled all that way to be king and is delighted to be named Brandon Stark Lord of the 6 Kingdoms. Sansa refusing to accept Bran as king (Despite the fact he is actually lord of Winterfell) and happy to see the chosen king in the north exiled to appease the war criminal Greyworm who wasn't even staying in Westeros.

Yara Greyjoy who came into the show as Balon Greyjoy declared himself a king and was subsequently vying to be Queen of the Iron Islands and who had just said moments before that she followed Dany not the Starks and didnt give two damns about Jon was suddenly happy to bend the knee to Brandon Stark while Sansa refused and declared the north a sovereign kingdom. The Dornish likewise happy to swear fealty to a cripple with zero claim to the throne based on some tales of magic and zombies told by Tyrion Lannister who was in chains for betraying his Queen (who they were also supporting) trying to help the remaining Lannisters (no friends of the Dornish) to escape.

Then somehow Tyrion is allowed to name Bronn, a sell sword lord of High-garden and master of coin for not murdering him. The Dothraki just disappeared. Greyworm hands over kings landing and just leaves having let his queens murderer and the traitor who betrayed her go free. He literally got nothing and Jon was exiled for nothing and goes to the nights watch which doesn't even need to exist any more.

None of it makes any sense. It's like George R.R Martin told the guys the ending was "Dany becomes what she was trying to destroy, Jon sacrifices everything to stop her" and they skipped about 3 series and wrote that load of nonsense to try make it all happen in 6 episodes to wrap it all up.

It was an absolutely fantastic show, no doubt. But the ending is an atrocity given the effort that went into writing, shooting and building up to that point producing some of the best TV that has ever been aired along the way. What a shame.

Twenty Grand

lawlolawl wrote: »

Also, Jon can just come back home after Grey Worm and the rest of the lads head off in the ships.

They are the only ones who wanted him dead.

Jon could have just stopped after he reach the new Independent North. No need to keep going to the NW.

Or he could have asked the ship captain to wait around until the Unsullied were over the horizon, then just got off.

It's sad to see so many fantastic and loved characters just die for nothing in such a poorly written, poorly timed manner.

Remember the Red Wedding. Rob Stark, the hero of the show get murdered completely by surprise. His death gets a whole episode to play out practically, and was telegraphed well in advance if only you knew where to look (Constantly ignored Roose Bolton, killed the Umber guy, Tywin writing letters and hinting that battles didn't win wars). It was shocking, all his hopes and dreams snuffed out, but every choice each character made was true to form, so it was believable.

Look what we've had for the last season. Major characters killed and saved purely to tie up loose ends and move the plot from A to B. No thought, no nuance, just hack and burn the story to get to the end.

Foxtrol

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but what if Jon's refusal was what brought them to that decision?

They could have done that but choosing 'democracy' due to a monarch turning down the job isn't near as powerful decision for the Houses to make.

Paddy Cow

Twenty Grand wrote: »

There's no nights watch left I think. Part of me thinks it was a lie to keep Grey worm happy and send Jon back to where he was happiest.

The last of the Night's Watch died at Winterfell. Sam doesn't count because he's....well.....I'm not sure. An expectant father? Lord Tarly? Maester? I don't know how he can suddenly be a maester when he ran from the Citadel and stole from them.

Blinky Plebum

Keyzer wrote: »

No.

No he didn't.

He got an shambolicly bad ending for his character arc (and its inferred and ultimately subverted trajectory).

He did practically nothing in Season 8 of note.

How these two sh1theads (D&D) put this crap together and thought it was good is beyond me..,

Jon Snow didn't want to be king though so he got what he wanted in life and seemed happy to be heading north to be with the wildlings. I'd argue it's the perfect ending for him.

lawlolawl

Also, Jon can just come back home after Grey Worm and the rest of the lads head off in the ships.

They are the only ones who wanted him dead.

Foxtrol

Lionbacker wrote: »

I don't think she cared all that much for Slavers Bay. She always wanted to get back to Westeros and to be honest, she was quite entitled to claim the throne seeing as her father was King before meeting his end.

I agree she never really cared much for Slavers Bay, she always wanted more.

I don't think you can say her drive was based on some sense of moral entitlement, as finding out John had a better claim did nothing to slow her down. It was her drive for power that led to her downfall.

crazy 88

The dialogue between jon and daenerys leading up to her death was atrocious...made home and away look like Shakespeare. This is how they marked the death of the most important character.
The very last scene of dialogue in the whole series (the small council) was probably worse again
Only thing the ep did well was tying back to the prophesy of snow/ash on the iron throne

Twenty Grand

flazio wrote: »

Dany wanted to break the wheel. They put two wheels on the throne.

Give that man a can of coke!

Twenty Grand

Paddy Cow wrote: »

She killed the Night King!

She had 10 seconds of usefulness, and an hour at threathening to be useful, but doing nothing.

LionelNashe

re: Jon being a Targeryon, it did serve a purpose:

- It drove a wedge between him & Dany, contributing to her losing the plot
- It shook Dany’s belief in her own destiny, contributing to her losing the plot.
- It triggered Varys’s treason, or at least brought it out in the open
- It gave him the ability to ride a dragon, which came in handy at Winterfell
- I reckon it’s why Drogon didn’t flame him
- It’s just a great tragic story; being a bit of an outsider and being hated all his life by Caetlyn and it turns out Ned Stark didn’t father a bastard after all.

As for him getting sent to the wall, he did kind of deserve it. He bent the knee to Dany unnecessarily, when she had already promised to fight the dead, and he kept his knee bent until King’s Landing was toast, despite the warning signs. What happened to KL is partly his fault (and Tyrion’s, Varys’s, etc).

flazio

Dany wanted to break the wheel. They put two wheels on the throne.

Twenty Grand

Sandor Clegane wrote: »

Maybe im missing something but at the end did Jon abandon the nights watch to live beyond the wall with the wildlings?

There's no nights watch left I think. Part of me thinks it was a lie to keep Grey worm happy and send Jon back to where he was happiest.

Sandor Clegane

Maybe im missing something but at the end did Jon abandon the nights watch to live beyond the wall with the wildlings?

Paddy Cow

lawlolawl wrote: »

The gosh darn patriarchy couldn't handle the prospect of a strong woman on the throne!

Seriosuly though, that wasn't very good.

Arya and Jon went off to be lumberjacks, Sansa's character doesn't make any sense and Bran not really seeming to care about being king makes him a terrible choice.

Bonus points for everyone accepting an imprisoned traitors plan on how to clear everything up.

I've found Sansa's story the most satisfying over all and I HATED her to start with. I thought she was a whingy, self-indulgent pain in the arSe and when she got Lady killed and sold out Ned to Cersei, I had no sympathy for her. On re-watches I can see her for what she was - a silly, immature, naive girl with romantic notions of going to the capital and marrying the King and living happily ever after. There was always a defiant spark to her though. Even when she became Joffrey's play thing she had moments where she defied him.

She went full circle in the end - from wanting to leave the North to ending up liberating it and wanting to be nowhere else. She really did look regal when she was crowned. The only problem I have with her becoming Queen in the North is that Yara should've thrown a b!tch fit and demanded independence.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

This sums up the season for me. Euron Greyjoy turning to the camera and saying "I am the man who killed Jamie Lannister."

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

*There aren't enough role eyes in all of the 7 Kingdoms to do it justice.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Paddy Cow

Keyzer wrote: »

No.

No he didn't.

He got an shambolicly bad ending for his character arc (and its inferred and ultimately subverted trajectory).

He did practically nothing in Season 8 of note.

How these two sh1theads (D&D) put this crap together and thought it was good is beyond me..,

What ending did you want for him? Unless he died there was no where for him. He lost the respect of the Northern Lords when he bent the knee to Dany and rejected their crowning him King in the North. He would never have been accepted again.

He was also never going to sit on the throne. He's like Ned - too naive to play the game. Just because he was a Targaryen and the rightful heir doesn't mean he should get the throne.

There's a great scene between Theon and Jon talking about loyalties. In the end Jon was more Stark than Targaryen and his nobleness overrides any desire for power. He ended up in the North which is where Starks belong.

lawlolawl

The gosh darn patriarchy couldn't handle the prospect of a strong woman on the throne!

Seriosuly though, that wasn't very good.

Arya and Jon went off to be lumberjacks, Sansa's character doesn't make any sense and Bran not really seeming to care about being king makes him a terrible choice.

Bonus points for everyone accepting an imprisoned traitors plan on how to clear everything up.

PressRun

That was very, very poor. Just absolutely terrible storytelling.
I didn't see anything redeeming about it.

-The person sitting on the throne is someone who is indifferent to the trials and tribulations of humanity. Does he even identify as human? And all the other lords are totally fine with this? Robin has nothing to say? The scene where they choose Bran was actually comical, and not in a good way.

-And what about Jon? A revelation 10 years in the making, a secret Ned Stark took to the grave, a secret that was supposed to change everything and be one of the most compelling parts of the story...ends up being a catalyst to drive Daenerys mad and is otherwise utterly meaningless. Nobody even mentions it after Daenerys is killed...what a complete waste.

-I wasn't displeased to see Sansa become Queen in the North, but what is the poignancy of a Stark ruling Winterfell when her family is scattered to the wind? What was the point of Arya kind of reclaiming her identity when she just jumps on the first boat out of there?

And then other issues within the episode itself:
Drogon burning the throne - Such fan fiction stuff. How does he even understand that the pursuit of the throne is the reason Daenerys is dead? And then flying off with her body - to where?
Greyworm - suddenly he's very invested in what happens in King's Landing and is calling the shots, yet also gets his sailing off into the sunset moment despite being a war criminal, while Jon is banished to the wall (despite there being no real need for that anymore).
Bronn becoming Master of Coin and ruling High Garden - wtf. Does anyone in the reach even know who the **** he is??

- Ultimately, what are we supposed to take from all this? That everything is meaningless? That people aren't capable of really changing? That we all become our parents eventually? What?

Keyzer

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I think he got a good ending. He might be the rightful heir to the throne but he has no desire to rule and like Ned is completely out of his debt in court politics. I like that he's gone north to live with the Wildlings. He is respected by them and feels at home but doesn't have any pressure of ruling. Bran did him a favour sending him there. There really was no other place for him.

No.

No he didn't.

He got an shambolicly bad ending for his character arc (and its inferred and ultimately subverted trajectory).

He did practically nothing in Season 8 of note.

How these two sh1theads (D&D) put this crap together and thought it was good is beyond me..,

NeonWolf

So let me get this straight

The people who won the game of thrones are a cripple, a ginger bird, a midget, a fat kunt and Liam Cunningham.

Political correctness has gone too far by infiltrating fantasy tv.

Paddy Cow

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that the Jon/Dany love story was supposed to be central to the ending/story. They were supposed to be properly in love.
Jon being a Targaryen and having a claim was supposed to sort of tear them apart.
Dany was supposed to be broken hearted that Jon no longer wanted her and turned mad queen.
Jon was probably supposed to be devastated about having to kill her.
I think thats kind of what they were going for.

Jon and Ygritte felt real and when he betrayed her for the Night's Watch you knew it broke both of them. I never felt any chemistry between Jon and Dany. At the beginning of season 8 when they were all sickly sweet smiles and dragon rides by moonlight it felt like they were forcing something that simply wasn't there. Jon and Ygritte are married in real life so their chemistry was 100% real.

Paddy Cow

dsmythy wrote: »

My favourite part was the Lords laughing at the idea of everyone voting. I would have been sick at the idea of a kingdom switching that quickly to democracy.

That was how democracy started in real life. People got sick of the absolute power of Kings and the nobles demanded they be allowed vote and created parliaments etc. Eventually the middle classes said we want the vote too, just because we're not noble doesn't mean we don't count. Then the poor demanded the vote. And finally the women. It was a long process.

Paddy Cow

is_that_so wrote: »

Ultimately he was a poor character. Far too much overactive conscience and conflict and not enough decision making in anything.

He was a moody teen but becoming the Lord Commander's steward started shaping him into a decent man. He went to save Wildlings and brought them south, knowing it would p!ss off a lot of people but he knew it was better to have them south than in the NK's army. He took back Winterfell (albeit with the Knight's of the Vale) but overall I liked him up until he bent the knee to Dany. Then he basically became her whipping boy and it was disappointing to watch him defend her sh!tty actions and lose the respect of the people in the North.

Paddy Cow

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Wtf why did Jon Snow get totally shafted? I mean he basically saved the world. And he was the rightful king. Seems a bit ridiculous

I think he got a good ending. He might be the rightful heir to the throne but he has no desire to rule and like Ned is completely out of his debt in court politics. I like that he's gone north to live with the Wildlings. He is respected by them and feels at home but doesn't have any pressure of ruling. Bran did him a favour sending him there. There really was no other place for him.

Paddy Cow

Teddy Daniels wrote: »

Actors were on x per episode so instead of 10 40 minute episodes we git the same 400 minutes over 6 episodes saving a huge amount. HBO will have sold it and its ad revenue for the same amount.

Episodes have always been an hour long. It's pretty much accepted that D&D wanted to wrap it up and move on.

Paddy Cow

Hercule Poirot wrote: »

Drogon melting the throne was bizarre to say the least, it's always been assumed the dragons had some level of intelligence but that was crap - maybe it knew what Jon was going to do but I don't see how it would lay there and let it happen?

RickBlaine

In fairness to Emilia Clarke, she can definitely deliver a rousing speech in a fictional language.