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Border Poll discussion

segarox

i hope some people from northern ireland are reading this because it concerns them.

i've been watching a few videos on what might happen to the north following brexit and one of the options is to reunify with ireland, which i believe, is not everyone cup of tea. me personally as an irishman, i have no strong feelings about this but i think it'd be nice to see a complete ireland on a map. however, i think i may have seen an option that hasn't been considered.

what if the north was to vote to rejoin ireland but in name only; establish yourselves as a separate state with your own government, your own police force (technically you have that already; Stormont and the PSNI) and your own currency.

could have the benefits of staying in the EU and not have the unpleasant taste of irish in your mouths. or am i talking rubbish? please, i'd to hear what you have to say.

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trashcan

Frank Castle wrote: »

In fairness if I am being honest I would say you are moderate for someone who still lives up home in the north. I'm not going to lie, my opinion only changed to what it is now after having moved to mayo.
Compared to myself I wouldn't call you moderate, but that may be an unfair comparison as I have a very different experience with nationalists down here (Nationalists back home are nothing like the nationalists here)

Frank, your contributions to this thread have been enlightening and refreshing. Downcow could do worse than have a closer read of what you've been saying. It's interesting that you say your attitude has changed since you moved "down here". I suppose when you're living in the middle of what was essentially a war zone for thirty years it's more difficult for both sides to come out of their respective trenches. Ultimately there is far more that unites rather than divides us on this island and I look forward to the day when more and more people start to realise this. Once we have that starting point all sorts of things are possible.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Personally I`d accept a UI referendum if that`s what the people of NI wanted but until they do you can`t attack people`s personal views which is what you are doing.In addition,you are very set in your ways yourself and unwilling to accept the views of others which makes your faux outrage astonishing.

You can characterise it as an 'attack' if you wish. Not much I can do about that. I see as debating issues, which is what a politics forum is for.

I like to think of myself as honest. If what you see is somebody 'set in their ways' I would disagree with that.
I present no threat to inclusive, democratic people who happen to identify differently to me.

downcow

trashcan wrote: »

Frank, your contributions to this thread have been enlightening and refreshing. Downcow could do worse than have a closer read of what you've been saying. It's interesting that you say your attitude has changed since you moved "down here". I suppose when you're living in the middle of what was essentially a war zone for thirty years it's more difficult for both sides to come out of their respective trenches. Ultimately there is far more that unites rather than divides us on this island and I look forward to the day when more and more people start to realise this. Once we have that starting point all sorts of things are possible.

I am reading franks posts closely and enjoying them and open to his thinking.
I am though keen he answers the question as to what makes him moderate and me not. I am genuinely interested provided his answer is specific enough to mean something

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can characterise it as an 'attack' if you wish. Not much I can do about that. I see as debating issues, which is what a politics forum is for.

I like to think of myself as honest. If what you see is somebody 'set in their ways' I would disagree with that.
I present no threat to inclusive, democratic people who happen to identify differently to me.

I actually think you seem a decent bloke and agree about this being a forum for debate-i just don't agree with your point of view on everything.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I actually think you seem a decent bloke and agree about this being a forum for debate-i just don't agree with your point of view on everything.

It isn't a requirement that 'we agree'.

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

And then the unionists will form a paramilitary sectarian gang and set about killing you all. I think that’s been tried!

The unionist paramiliatry sectarian gang certainly has. They teamed up with British state terrorists to kill over 1,000 civilians in the recent past.

downcow

Farawayhome wrote: »

The unionist paramiliatry sectarian gang certainly has. They teamed up with British state terrorists to kill over 1,000 civilians in the recent past.

Please don’t start that nonsense again!

Farawayhome

downcow wrote: »

Please don’t start that nonsense again!

You brought up the unionist sectarian murder gang!

blanch152

jm08 wrote: »

Donegal is an Ulster county where they speak Ulster Irish. How can you import Ulster Irish from one Ulster county to another?

They speak Donegal Irish in Donegal, it is a different dialect to that which was spoken in the North until it died out in the North.

Try telling the people of Ring that the Irish they speak is Munster Irish, the same as that spoken in Dingle.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Irish language belongs to all the people of this island, it is a part of them, even if they deny it, you cannot have a conversation without using words that derive from it.

The Irish language isn't as much a part of the people of this island as the English language is. You will deny that, as will others, but the English language is much more engrained in ordinary culture. It is probably more correct to call it a Hiberno-English dialect.

The Irish language was more or less dead by 1900, and was only artificially revived in the century since. Even calling it revived is a stretch.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

The Irish language isn't as much a part of the people of this island as the English language is. You will deny that, as will others, but the English language is much more engrained in ordinary culture. It is probably more correct to call it a Hiberno-English dialect.

The Irish language was more or less dead by 1900, and was only artificially revived in the century since. Even calling it revived is a stretch.

Why it was dead by 1900 is a debate for another thread but it wasn't the fault of the native speakers.

Nobody made a comparison between it and English btw.

Is it a non threatening enriching complex and sophisicated part of us - all of us.

IMO it is and even if you ignore it, you cannot divest yourself of it as if it was something dirty - they tried that up to 1900. My grandmother, a native speaker, would not teach it to her children she was made to feel so inferior and shamed.
Obviously there are those who still see it as a sign of cultural inferiority and almost apologise for it. That must be a terribly sad way to be, culturally.

Frank Castle

downcow wrote: »

I am interested what you think makes you moderate and me not. - that’s a serious question?

Imo the difference between you and me is that I don't see integration with Ireland as a threat to who I am. I don't take issue with the irish language (my children will be studying it when they start school down here) and I don't think our culture revolves around bonfires, flags and marching. They are part of it sure, but they are not the core of it, and losing/changing them would not change who we are.

I believe you are a little stuck in the past when we had it all, we never had to compromise, so now any compromise made feels like a threat when it simply isn't.

Ireland has no intention of wiping us out nor our beliefs. I am free to do and practice what I want here without question. And that is much better than at home where you can't enter certain areas because of your beliefs or who you support.

I would be happy to ban bonfires (most people I know would too, but yes we are probably a minority - I'd blame education overall) and I'm happy with altered parade routes. What matters is that we can parade in a peaceful way and enjoy it. I have no interest of parading down a catholic area and potentially cause violence. Same should apply to patricks day parades.

As I said, from your post so far, it seems you do not want to comprise because for some reason you see compromise as a threat to our culture. Do you really think our culture is so weak?

(Sure you are happy with changes to same sex and abortion etc, but that's different because imo its not our culture to be a damn bigot)

Also down here does have gaa flags everywhere, what is it with this island and flags!

Frank Castle

blanch152 wrote: »

The Irish language isn't as much a part of the people of this island as the English language is. You will deny that, as will others, but the English language is much more engrained in ordinary culture. It is probably more correct to call it a Hiberno-English dialect.

The Irish language was more or less dead by 1900, and was only artificially revived in the century since. Even calling it revived is a stretch.

Tbh that's because we did a great job of wiping it out. Its the reason the empire was so successful, ruled with an iron fist and wiped out local history and languages where it could.

The language seems to be alive in mayo at least, as I hear people using it all the time, which is annoying because I don't have a clue what they are saying :P

Dytalus

Frank Castle wrote: »

The language seems to be alive in mayo at least, as I hear people using it all the time, which is annoying because I don't have a clue what they are saying :P

My two closest friends speak it regularly to one another, one of them went to a gaelscoil. I can sympathise because I'm stuck there all "uh huh. I know some of these words."

The language is very much not dead (as, say, Latin is), there are areas of Ireland where it's spoken as a first language, but I agree it's not thriving across the island. I think it's a bit pessmistic for folks to say "it's dead, let it die".

FrancieBrady

Dytalus wrote: »

My two closest friends speak it regularly to one another, one of them went to a gaelscoil. I can sympathise because I'm stuck there all "uh huh. I know some of these words."

The language is very much not dead (as, say, Latin is), there are areas of Ireland where it's spoken as a first language, but I agree it's not thriving across the island. I think it's a bit pessmistic for folks to say "it's dead, let it die".

I think it is in transition mode. We have switched away from the stiff compulsory mode and it is now been encouraged at a more organic level. That will ultimately be a much more successful approach and it needs support.

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

They speak Donegal Irish in Donegal, it is a different dialect to that which was spoken in the North until it died out in the North.

Accent is the main difference.
Not sure what the issue is with what dialect it is. There is a standard Irish anyway for schools etc. As far as I know, they speak Connemara Irish in the Meath Gaeltacht - does that make it inferior or something because it was imported in with migration from Connemara?

Try telling the people of Ring that the Irish they speak is Munster Irish, the same as that spoken in Dingle.

It is still Munster Irish! There are several dialects within the Provinces - e.g., Kerry Irish, Cork Irish. People from all over the country used go to Ring and I have never heard of it being a handicap.

downcow

Frank Castle wrote: »

Frank your definition of moderate frustrates me. You sound like the Alliance Party up here. I was a supporter of NI21 which formed and then emploded. The difference in my view is the Alliance Party tried to be neutral while NI21 tried to be diverse. Diversity is healthy and rich

Let me try and respond to your stuff below

"Imo the difference between you and me is that I don't see integration with Ireland as a threat to who I am(neither do I). I don't take issue with the irish language (my children will be studying it when they start school down here) and I don't think our culture revolves around bonfires, flags and marching(neither do I). They are part of it sure, but they are not the core of it, and losing/changing them would not change who we are (but it would dramatically change or culture . Huge numbers of or people enjoy these activities so why should the intolerance of others prevent them).

I believe you are a little stuck in the past when we had it all, we never had to compromise, so now any compromise made feels like a threat when it simply isn't. I just don't understand this. I am in my 50s and i have never been able to be myself in my home town. I can't display my culture, I can't leave poppys at the cenotaph without them being destroyed. I can't drink in my local pubs. I can't openly support my national football team. etc, etc, etc, My neighbours have been able to do all these things all my life - so i think i have done a fair bit of compromising

Ireland has no intention of wiping us out nor our beliefs. I am free to do and practice what I want here without question. And that is much better than at home where you can't enter certain areas because of your beliefs or who you support.

I would be happy to ban bonfires That sounds like the opposite of a moderate - certainly not someone who wants to protect minority cultures on this island or as you put it a damn bigot (most people I know would too, but yes we are probably a minority - I'd blame education overall) and I'm happy with altered parade routes(So am I when it is reasonable). What matters is that we can parade in a peaceful way and enjoy it. I have no interest of parading down a catholic area and potentially cause violence. Same should apply to patricks day parades Unlike you, I look forward to the day when all on this island can not only tolerate diversity but can respect it.

As I said, from your post so far, it seems you do not want to comprise because for some reason you see compromise as a threat to our culture. Do you really think our culture is so weak? again I have no idea what you are talking about. I have asked several times on this site what compromise people would like me to make and no one will tell me

(Sure you are happy with changes to same sex and abortion I am somewhere in the middle on abortion and if you are black & white on the issue then thats certainly not a moderate etc, but that's different because imo its not our culture to be a damn bigot) My point exactly, but to me your wish for not exposing each other to diversity is heading toward bigotry

Also down here does have gaa flags everywhere, what is it with this island and flags! - and they are fine with you - its just my flags that are a problem to you?"

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

]Unlike you, I look forward to the day when all on this island can not only tolerate diversity but can respect it.[/U]

Why do you keep flip flopping?

In response to the question: 'What would you do in a UI scenario' you said that you would basically withdraw from it and ignore 'your jolly little united Ireland project'.

Is that your definition of 'tolerance of diversity and respect'? Seems to me that it is a one way street.

James Brown

RobMc59 wrote: »

My opinion is only as a British unionist who finds republicans saying what is and is`nt acceptable in the event of a UI at this early stage as threats-I`m sure others would see it like that too.
Anyway,what`s the big rush-it does`nt seem many in NI are clamouring for a poll?

No you said one side was all about no compromise and Unionists had to lump it. Now you're saying the idea of discussing any compromises pre any moves towards a poll is a threat. I'll leave it there.

Frank Castle

downcow wrote: »

(but it would dramatically change or culture . Huge numbers of or people enjoy these activities so why should the intolerance of others prevent them).

Not really, loads of people would because the excuse for a piss up is gone, but really it wouldn't affect us as a people. If i asked you to describe yourself would any of those 3 things be in your description? No they are just events and things we have gotten used to, and they have been degraded by sectarian acts. They are no longer the celebration they were, they are now just another excuse to 'stick it to themuns' (and an excuse to get drunk). We don't need to light a fire to show how great we are, or that billy won a battle. Why do you insist that our culture has to involve sectarian issues. We have plenty of arts and artists we can point to, but no, we light a f*cking fire and celebrate killing some catholics.

downcow wrote: »

I just don't understand this. I am in my 50s and i have never been able to be myself in my home town. I can't display my culture, I can't leave poppys at the cenotaph without them being destroyed. I can't drink in my local pubs. I can't openly support my national football team. etc, etc, etc, My neighbours have been able to do all these things all my life - so i think i have done a fair bit of compromising

See this is what I mean, the other side have the exact same issue as you but you can't see it. We both do the same thing to eachother but both sides claim innocence. There's no such thing as I compromise my whole life and they haven't.

downcow wrote: »

That sounds like the opposite of a moderate - certainly not someone who wants to protect minority cultures on this island or as you put it a damn bigot[/U] (most people I know would too, but yes we are probably a minority - I'd blame education overall) and I'm happy with altered parade routes(So am I when it is reasonable). What matters is that we can parade in a peaceful way and enjoy it. I have no interest of parading down a catholic area and potentially cause violence. Same should apply to patricks day parades Unlike you, I look forward to the day when all on this island can not only tolerate diversity but can respect it.

Please don't try to pull the diversity card... The truth is, ignoring the sectarian burning, bonfires are bad for the planet, at some point we need to stop being c*nts and start looking after the planet, because previous generations didn't give a sh*t and have ruined it. (Global warming is a thing even if the DUP refuse to admit it).
Thing with tolerating diversity is that diversity cannot be offensive. It is not ok to a white supremacy march in a black area, same was as its not ok to march in support of oppressing women. If we want our marches to be tolerated then we need to stop forcing into catholic areas and stop being so aggressive (remember the 12th celebrates killing catholics, so its offensive anyway, we have to be reasonable too)
If we want respect then we need to find common ground to celebrate without insulting each other.

downcow wrote: »

again I have no idea what you are talking about. I have asked several times on this site what compromise people would like me to make and no one will tell me

I'm suggesting we could give up bonfires, and tone down flag use and have our parades in reasonable areas (I'd also allow irish on signs). All 3 options you have shot down.

downcow wrote: »

I am somewhere in the middle on abortion and if you are black & white on the issue then thats certainly not a moderate etc, but that's different because imo its not our culture to be a damn bigot) My point exactly, but to me your wish for not exposing each other to diversity is heading toward bigotry

Diversity should never mean control of another person. I personally don't like the idea of abortion, but why should that mean I can prevent others from doing it? Diversity is about respect, then imo respect other peoples choices and don't force them to do what you want. (thats my moderate stance)

downcow wrote: »

- and they are fine with you - its just my flags that are a problem to you?"

No if it was up to me all flags would be banned. Fair enough on match days or parades. But to have them up 24/7 just looks horrible and distasteful imo.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Thanks Matt. And I can assure you most unionists are keen to embrace same sex marriage.
It would be an amazing gesture if you were going to ensure Ulster Scots parades could get back into their traditional routes. But I agree with you that it is crazy they can’t march

Ulster Scots parades?

So your idea of compromise is to allow gay people equality? Essentially align your laws with Britain (and the South).

And in return for "allowing" that you want to have traditional route for these fabled Ulster Scots parades? Hmmmmm...

Is there a different definition for "compromise" in Ullans that I'm missing?

jm08

downcow wrote: »

I believe you are a little stuck in the past when we had it all, we never had to compromise, so now any compromise made feels like a threat when it simply isn't. I just don't understand this. I am in my 50s and i have never been able to be myself in my home town. I can't display my culture, I can't leave poppys at the cenotaph without them being destroyed. I can't drink in my local pubs. I can't openly support my national football team. etc, etc, etc, My neighbours have been able to do all these things all my life - so i think i have done a fair bit of compromising.

I think that you don't fully understand what compromising is. A compromise to me would be displaying the flag on a set number of days a year, or bonfires in designated areas, of a certain size and use of materials, away from houses so that they don't disrupt people.

Personally, while I don't object to the actual bonfires, I don't like the environmental damage due to the material used, size and the burning of effigies, posters of politicians and flags. All that does is promote hate.

Frank is amazed at the number of flags in Mayo, but if Mayo ever win an all-Ireland, there will be joyous bonfires (small ones) on every cross-roads in Ireland (outside of Dublin!) to celebrate their win.

Junkyard Tom

So loss of contentious parading routes that were used to wind up the Catholic/Nationalist population is, to Downcow at least, bigotry and intolerance of diversity? Sweet sufferin' mercy.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So loss of contentious parading routes that were used to wind up the Catholic/Nationalist population is, to Downcow at least, bigotry and intolerance of diversity? Sweet sufferin' mercy.

And the proposal to swap them back in return for LGBT rights...frankly bizarre.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why do you keep flip flopping?

In response to the question: 'What would you do in a UI scenario' you said that you would basically withdraw from it and ignore 'your jolly little united Ireland project'.

Is that your definition of 'tolerance of diversity and respect'? Seems to me that it is a one way street.

I’m fine being quoted but don’t make stuff up to suit

downcow

Frank Castle wrote: »

Not really, loads of people would because the excuse for a piss up is gone, but really it wouldn't affect us as a people. If i asked you to describe yourself would any of those 3 things be in your description? No they are just events and things we have gotten used to, and they have been degraded by sectarian acts. They are no longer the celebration they were, they are now just another excuse to 'stick it to themuns' (and an excuse to get drunk). We don't need to light a fire to show how great we are, or that billy won a battle. Why do you insist that our culture has to involve sectarian issues. We have plenty of arts and artists we can point to, but no, we light a f*cking fire and celebrate killing some catholics.

Now the moderates true colours can be seen.
You are either being mischievous or you have simply idea what happens at the 3000+ parades or the twelfth etc.
I think that is a disgusting way to describe marching, fires etc
Of course some people drink but it is a nonsense to suggest that is not a small minority.
And again it shows where your head is if you think anyone is celebrating killing catholics. It’s actually quite sad to read you post it is so far from reality.
The laugh is you quote st Patrick’s parade as culture and orange parades as not.
I’ve been to both and I can assure you the standard of band is streets ahead at an orange parade and the drinking is streets ahead at a st Patrick’s parade. You need to do some serious work on your prejudice.
It is quite sad to read your post.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I’m fine being quoted but don’t make stuff up to suit

You said it.

downcow

Frank Castle wrote: »

Not really, loads of people would because the excuse for a piss up is gone, but really it wouldn't affect us as a people. If i asked you to describe yourself would any of those 3 things be in your description? No they are just events and things we have gotten used to, and they have been degraded by sectarian acts. They are no longer the celebration they were, they are now just another excuse to 'stick it to themuns' (and an excuse to get drunk). We don't need to light a fire to show how great we are, or that billy won a battle. Why do you insist that our culture has to involve sectarian issues. We have plenty of arts and artists we can point to, but no, we light a f*cking fire and celebrate killing some catholics.

See this is what I mean, the other side have the exact same issue as you but you can't see it. We both do the same thing to eachother but both sides claim innocence. There's no such thing as I compromise my whole life and they haven't.

Please don't try to pull the diversity card... The truth is, ignoring the sectarian burning, bonfires are bad for the planet, at some point we need to stop being c*nts and start looking after the planet, because previous generations didn't give a sh*t and have ruined it. (Global warming is a thing even if the DUP refuse to admit it)..

Take a serious look at your prejudice with this planet nonsense.
The anti crowd have tried everything but this one is the biggest joke of all. It is nothing short of sectarian hatred of s culture that leads people to quote this reason.
Most of the kids involved in bonfires are form fairly disadvantaged areas. Most will never have boarded a plane and many will be in households with no car.
I am guessing you have a car and a holiday and probably go to watch the annual fireworks display or maybe air show. So get off your sectarian high horse and give these kids a break.
Honestly examine yourself and consider why you want the kids with the smallest carbon footprint and the least opportunities to stop the one big annual activity they love. I heard a kid on tv last year saying that Xmas comes second to the boney. You might not like that but try to be moderate and tolerant.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You said it.

That’s what quotes are for francie. You seem to be able to quote me accurately on this one but you’ve lost the other quote. I am getting a bit pi**ed off with being misquoted

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

That’s what quotes are for francie. You seem to be able to quote me accurately on this one but you’ve lost the other quote. I am getting a bit pi**ed off with being misquoted

What?
You said it in reply to a question I asked you 'on what you would do if there was a UI.'

So I’d be completely peaceful but I wouldn’t be part of you jolly Ireland project

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