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All our packaging: how to reduce it substantially?

[Deleted User]

So, leaving aside the obvious food waste, I'm fairly floored by the amount of cardboard, paper and plastic I've been putting in the recycling bins today. And I'm certain many people are feeling similarly about all their own waste (just had a big chat with the next door neighbour, who brought the topic of waste up).

I'm a strong believer in the Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility: for each additional unit (e.g. a toy car) of a product consumed a person's satisfaction declines. In other words, a kid isn't, for instance, getting anything like the same sort of satisfaction from cars 5, 10, or 15 as he is from car 1. In a nutshell, we all could do with far fewer presents, with far less paper and cardboard and all the rest and our satisfaction would probably not decline much, if at all. I've always been very conscientious about recycling, ever since I lived and worked in Scandinavia in the 1990s, an experience which was a huge eyeopener in how we as a society could be much more intelligent about our waste.

Anyway, while for cultural reasons to do with "expectations" I may not win the debate even in my own home about buying fewer presents next year, how can I reduce the impact of all this consumerism on our planet? I sense that there is a huge revolution needed in our packaging culture and it will have to be done at an EU-wide level at least. There's no way it could succeed on a voluntary basis because the fancy packaging will have the marketing edge and thus undermine attempts by companies to act more environmentally in their packaging. However, I cannot envisage all the extraordinary packaging of products today continuing indefinitely. I still remember when two of the local pubs used to sell sweets - bon, bons, Cola Cubes, etc - out of big jars, so anybody who thinks the current level of packaging has always been with us is very mistaken.

There is definitely a massive cultural change needed in terms of the "I have to buy a present for..." mentality. Can we not start a campaign to make it acceptable to give presents with far less packaging? Governments are giving tax breaks to businesses all the time, why not tax breaks to reduce waste? (Or else just change the law and compel them to be more ethical) It could be a superb business opportunity to facilitate a consumerism with far less plastic/cardboard/paper etc.

In the meantime, though, what is the next level up from conventionally recycling almost everything? Even our quotidian milk back in the 80s was in glass milk bottles - remember this? - which we washed and put back out for the milkman - not it's just plastic container after plastic container, every single day in the vast majority of homes. There are so many products like that now that really are no credit to our society but it seems to be the "lower cost" option to create more waste, when most of us would agree that we should inventivise a more efficient, less wasteful use of resources.

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jester77

CelticRambler wrote: »

Tomatoes are dead easy to grow in your garden; no packaging need come anywhere near them ... :cool:

I grow tomatoes in my garden, the problem is you only have a supply for a small part of the year. Albeit they are better than anything you will find in a supermarket. Same for berries.

CelticRambler

jester77 wrote: »

I grow tomatoes in my garden, the problem is you only have a supply for a small part of the year. Albeit they are better than anything you will find in a supermarket. Same for berries.

And that's where preserving comes in!

Re-using glass bottles and jars, instead of recycling them, thus saving all the energy needed to collect, crush and re-process them into something new.

SonNo.1 came back from Dublin with a proposal for eliminating soft "unrecyclable" plastic (mainly the film that wraps six-packs of cardboard cartons, etc. :mad: ) from our recyclables: compress it into plastic bottles to make ecobricks. So far, we've got nearly a fortnight's plastic wrapping into just one bottle.

kneemos

CelticRambler wrote: »

And that's where preserving comes in! Re-using glass bottles and jars, instead of recycling them, thus saving all the energy needed to collect, crush and re-process them into something new.

SonNo.1 came back from Dublin with a proposal for eliminating soft "unrecyclable" plastic (mainly the film that wraps six-packs of cardboard cartons, etc. :mad: ) from our recyclables: compress it into plastic bottles to make ecobricks. So far, we've got nearly a fortnight's plastic wrapping into just one bottle.

Takes more energy to recycle glass bottles apparently than produce new cartons.

Earthhorse

No one decides whether to have kids or not based on environmental concerns or at least not enough to make a difference. People aren't going to stop having kids, it's a huge biological urge, and sort of like abstaining from sex to avoid pregnancy it sidesteps the issue rather than addressing it.

questionmark? wrote: »

Plastic waste for food products is completely over the top and it's the one that fills your bin every week. For example you want some tomatoes but you get six in a plastic tray wrapped in non recyclable plastic wrap. Why is that necessary? Just have them loose buy as many as you need and put them into a bio degradable bag (like supervalue are doing) It's the same across most food products just excess packaging waste everywhere.

This is where we can make huge improvements. I think we're going to see a shift at some point to people bringing containers to supermarkets to refill from their supply; for example, cereals, shampoos etc. The truth is we do need packaging for a lot of stuff but there are more sustainable ways to manage it.

paulbok

CelticRambler wrote: »

Tomatoes are dead easy to grow in your garden; no packaging need come anywhere near them ... :cool:

How are they growing today for you?

CelticRambler

paulbok wrote: »

How are they growing today for you?

They're not (but I think you knew that ...

)

But there's no reason to be eating (fresh) tomatoes when there's plenty of other fruit available.

Unless, of course, you're someone who pays no attention to seasonality and insists on buying/eating things that have to be grown under artificial conditions or shipped in from the far side of the world, in which case buying a few grammes of plastic packaging is the least of your consumerist sins. :rolleyes:

LirW

CelticRambler wrote: »

And that's where preserving comes in! Re-using glass bottles and jars, instead of recycling them, thus saving all the energy needed to collect, crush and re-process them into something new.

SonNo.1 came back from Dublin with a proposal for eliminating soft "unrecyclable" plastic (mainly the film that wraps six-packs of cardboard cartons, etc. :mad: ) from our recyclables: compress it into plastic bottles to make ecobricks. So far, we've got nearly a fortnight's plastic wrapping into just one bottle.

Funnily enough, there was a pilot project with ecobricks building homeless accommodation with them, pretty cheap. I think it was somewhere in central America.
An awful lot of people from the US complained because they're concerned about the fumes that might come from them in warm weather.

You really can't win and make people happy.

kneemos

CelticRambler wrote: »

They're not (but I think you knew that ... )

But there's no reason to be eating (fresh) tomatoes when there's plenty of other fruit available.

Unless, of course, you're someone who pays no attention to seasonality and insists on buying/eating things that have to be grown under artificial conditions or shipped in from the far side of the world, in which case buying a few grammes of plastic packaging is the least of your consumerist sins. :rolleyes:

What fruit is available?

Dakota Dan

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Stop having kids.

3 posts in and the over population nuts have arrived :rolleyes:

Dakota Dan

Graces7 wrote: »

My wartime generation could teach a lot.. We wasted nothing. And the habits die hard. Old clothes end up as dusters and floor cloths. Paper waste lights the fire. Cardboard goes on the vegetable patch to mulch down. Turf ashes are cat litter....

The plastic milk cartons with the tops off make excellent planters. And they make great bird feeders and nest boxes. Leave the tops ready to put back on to make mini greenhouses..

Of course we had rationing. Limited all we bought.
Saving coupons for a new dress..

Cloth /string shopping bags. etc etc etc

Exactly, it's over consumerism not over population.

CalamariFritti

Dakota Dan wrote: »

3 posts in and the over population nuts have arrived :rolleyes:

You don't think there is such a thing? We could grow to 10, 20, 30 billion not a problem?

LirW

While babies are amongst the worst offenders with their baby-related rubbish, with a bit of effort you can drastically cut down the environmental impact of your child.
Nappies are incredibly bad, there's a good re-usable alternative though. Same goes for wipes.
More food from scratch so you save tons of packaging. Re-use toys, get the stuff second hand, same goes for clothes. Buy cotton clothes and avoid synthetic fabrics. Use bamboo plates and cups instead of hard plastic.

The western world has a lot of convenience products for children, every parent would do good to be more conscious about what they buy and what the children actually need.

Dakota Dan

CalamariFritti wrote: »

You don't think there is such a thing? We could grow to 10, 20, 30 billion not a problem?

The population of Europe is dropping and aging and it's the poorer countries that are increasing population. In fairness there isn't a hope in hell of 30 billion unless we all start breeding like rabbits.

quietsailor

Earthhorse wrote: »

This is where we can make huge improvements. I think we're going to see a shift at some point to people bringing containers to supermarkets to refill from their supply; for example, cereals, shampoos etc. The truth is we do need packaging for a lot of stuff but there are more sustainable ways to manage it.

Its already starting. You can go to the Quay co op shop in cork city centre to refill your Ecover washing liquids.

There's another shop that does it out in Clonakilty https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/olives-refill-station-aims-to-cut-down-on-use-of-plastics-469495.html

Its slow starting but its happening

Day Lewin

The only way to discourage packaging is to just NOT BUY STUFF that is in packets.

It's not as hard as you might think!

Get fruit and veg at greengrocer, loose: do not purchase plastic items made in factories and imported. This includes food, of course, and toys.

Local products in sustainable materials are the best choice for this lovely planet.

Just say No.

rtron

I've saved up all the plastic packaging from Xmas presents and will feed it to the whales on my next visit to the sea. Apparently they love eating it according to news reports this year.
That should help cut down to on the waste.

Franz Von Peppercorn

CalamariFritti wrote: »

You don't think there is such a thing? We could grow to 10, 20, 30 billion not a problem?

The world population is trending towards stability (and then a fall) at about 10B

CelticRambler

kneemos wrote: »

What fruit is available?

Apples and pears, mainly, and nuts of various kinds. Plus whatever you threw in the freezer and/or dried, bottled or made into jam during the summer glut ... :cool: My Christmas guests have been gorging themselves on a fig and apricot chutney made last February from the 2017 harvest.

Ger Roe

Going back to the original question posed - Would you support moves to drastically reduce packaging?

The obvious issue here is, what moves in particular?. I have been recycling for years only to find that my need to do so and the level of segregation required has increased dramatically, it is also extremely disappointing to note that as a nation we don't actually recycle, we export our waste materials.

Drastic change needs to be enforced from the top down. I can only buy what is offered to me in whatever container it comes. The idea that the last person in the chain has to solve the entire problem by 'recycling' is crazy and the fact that I am ending up recycling more and more material, despite my best efforts just highlights that truth.

Why do we allow non recyclable materials into the country?. Why do we not have a government led approach to eliminate the use of mixed packaging?. Why do we not tell people to crush cans and reduce the number of journeys then required to recycle them?. We don't we recycle our own waste instead of exporting it all? Why do we subsidise the waste industry to export our waste while we have made no effort to reduce the amount of potential waste coming into the country in the first place? Why is waste management still in the realm of the local authorities, resulting in big variations in the services and facilities available - this is a national issue, the standard of waste management service provision should not be dependent on your geographical location or local council budget or policy.

I know the reasons of course, the consumer is an easy target for taxes and levies because in the end it doesn't matter how much material or energy is wasted as long as someone (us) pays for it. It's easier to tax than to reform and it's best not to put any pressure on big corporations for fear that we won't be seen as a great little country to do business in. Just watch for the introduction of carbon tax shortly, we will all be punished for using resources for which by and large we have no alternative, because our overlords have been doing nothing to develop alternatives apart from setting up various quangoes to monitor and lecture us, when we, as end line consumers, are powerless pawns in the game.

CelticRambler

CalamariFritti wrote: »

You don't think there is such a thing? We could grow to 10, 20, 30 billion not a problem?

Nope. The world's population is trending towards stabilising at around 11bn, and that's in the face of a rapidly declining birth rate. Have a look at Hans Rosling's work (e.g. this video) and how the real problem facing the world is old people - the worst offenders when it comes to excessive consumption of the world's resources.

Healthcare for the over fifties - including all those individually wrapped, single-use medical products - produces an enormous amount of waste (and costs the ever-declining population of able-bodied working taxpayers a fortune) ... but that's a whole other discussion.

[Deleted User]

CalamariFritti wrote: »

You don't think there is such a thing? We could grow to 10, 20, 30 billion not a problem?

Where do all the other animals live?

CalamariFritti

CelticRambler wrote: »

Nope. The world's population is trending towards stabilising at around 11bn, and that's in the face of a rapidly declining birth rate. Have a look at Hans Rosling's work (e.g. this video) and how the real problem facing the world is old people - the worst offenders when it comes to excessive consumption of the world's resources.

Healthcare for the over fifties - including all those individually wrapped, single-use medical products - produces an enormous amount of waste (and costs the ever-declining population of able-bodied working taxpayers a fortune) ... but that's a whole other discussion.

Easy solution I suppose. Can't remember what's the name of the film where everyone over 30 goes 'to live on a farm'? Was it the same movie that had soylent green in it? I think it was.

questionmark?

Graces7 wrote: »

To protect the produce from being mauled and damaged. Tomatoes are fragile. And too many fingers handling them.

It's crazy that places like supervalue, greengrocers and markets all around Europe can survive without putting everything in a plastic package. As for the mauling, there is a thing called water where you get to wash the products!

Also what about items like sweet potatoes,carrots, onions also in plastic wrapping? It's just plastic waste there is no real need.

harry Bailey esq

It's simple really, find and open spot football pitches or parks for instance, pile it all up and f*ck a match to it.

nice_guy80

I've started reusing compostable bags for fruit and veg.

Would definitely like less packaging

Blaizes

quietsailor wrote: »

Its already starting. You can go to the Quay co op shop in cork city centre to refill your Ecover washing liquids.

There's another shop that does it out in Clonakilty https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.irishexaminer.com/ireland/olives-refill-station-aims-to-cut-down-on-use-of-plastics-469495.html

Its slow starting but its happening

I thought there was a shop like that in Dublin before where you could buy loose flour, rice etc. This would definitely cut down on packaging.Another idea would be to buy catering size jars of coffee instead of the smaller jars.I have seen these at my local supermarket.I think any bit we can do would help.

Dravokivich

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Easy solution I suppose. Can't remember what's the name of the film where everyone over 30 goes 'to live on a farm'? Was it the same movie that had soylent green in it? I think it was.

There was also Logan's Run.

[Deleted User]

In the UK you can unpackage your products and leave it at the store you bought it in. I've done it a few times in Tesco, who claim to welcome packaging. If enough manufacturers get feedback that their good are so over packed that they're being unwrapped/boxed at the store, it might encourage them to rethink their methods. I'm always especially annoyed at things in plastic blisters then covered with cardboard and the whole thing then covered in this plastic wrap.

I'm not sure if you can do the same in Ireland, might be worth looking into.

Dakota Dan

CelticRambler wrote: »

Nope. The world's population is trending towards stabilising at around 11bn, and that's in the face of a rapidly declining birth rate. Have a look at Hans Rosling's work (e.g. this video) and how the real problem facing the world is old people - the worst offenders when it comes to excessive consumption of the world's resources.

Healthcare for the over fifties - including all those individually wrapped, single-use medical products - produces an enormous amount of waste (and costs the ever-declining population of able-bodied working taxpayers a fortune) ... but that's a whole other discussion.

So over 50 is old now and as for the dig about taxpayers funding their healthcare, the majority have spent a lifetime working up to 65/66 and paying taxes.

steves2

This is something I've thought about a lot this Christmas, seeing the amount of packaging that gifts and food comes in. I went to our local playground with my daughter yesterday and brought a plastic bag with me to pick up the litter that's always there, something I always meant to do but never remembered. Picked up a full bag of litter and could've gotten more if I'd another.
People looking to the government for guidance on the issue of packaging and plastics are delusional. The perpetual consumer machine needs to keep going, they need us to be out there spending our money on stuff, jobs depend on it.
I leave excess packaging behind in my local Lidl, sometimes I feel like it's a waste of time but the consumer is the one having to pay for all of this. I wrote to a minister years ago about how we don't have places to return plastic bottles for money, like they do in Germany and Scandinavia, the response I got would fill you with apathy. Maybe that's the point?!