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Cork developments

snotboogie

I noticed that the Limerick equivalent is a very popular thread over on their forum so I thought I might get one going here. To kick things off I'll list the bigger current projects I can think of:

Under Construction

Navigation Square: Four building office development on the former Navigation House site on Albert Quay. 310,000 sq ft of office space for up to 3000 employees. First phase to be completed Feb 19'

89-90 South Mall: 50,000 sq ft office, 5 storey office building.To be completed in December 18'

Dalata Hotel South Mall: Six storey hotel, 165 beds. To be completed in December 18'

Various Student Accommodation: Western Road and Beamish site are under construction, Crows Nest has planning and should start soon, Square Deal is facing appeals, Coca-Cola site on the Carrigrohane Road has had planning for over a year but nothing has happened? O’Riordans Joinery, Gillen House on Farranlea Road, Model Farm Road/Melbourne Road and Copely Street are all at various stages of planning and/or limbo.

Planning/Appealed

Horgan's Quay: Office Space for 5,000 employees, 200 apartments, 136 bed hotel and 3000 sq metres of restaurants and retail. Got planning permission in March but it was appealed by Port of Cork. Uncertain when the final decision will be. Construction on the Hotel will hopefully begin in Q4 this year with the office and apartments commencing in 2019.

Sullivan's Quay: 6 storey Office & 193 bed 4 star Hotel. Planning granted and immediately appealed. Given that demolition is nearly complete I'd expect this to go into construction as soon as planning is granted. Potential hold up over the height of the hotel, at 12 storeys and 47 metres, it is set to make the top 20 tallest buildings in the state if completed. An Taisce not happy.

Former Victoria Hotel: Knocking much of the Victoria and rebuilding to the back and refurbishing the original historic front/facade and to integrate the two sections into a new high order retail unit, of 25,000 sq ft, over four floors. Rumoured to be taken over by Zara. Planning granted in Feb, nothing happened on site since.

Metropole Redevelopment: €50m redevelopment of the Metropole Hotel to include a new five-storey boutique hotel on Patrick's Quay. Planning granted with amendments in March. No date for work to start.

Wilton Shopping Centre: €100 million revamp proposed. Mistake made in planning permission. In the process of resubmitting.

In Limbo

Event Centre: 6000 all seater multi purpose event centre with a tourist brewery experience. Arguably the most controversial construction project in the history of the city. After a bleak 6 months at the back end of 2017 there have been two instances of positive murmurs from the Government and BAM in January 2018 and April 2018. Construction allegedly to start in Q4 2018 but there are still conflicting and contradictory statements from all parties involved. Most would be shocked to see this start in 2018.

Anderson Quay/Camden Quay/Trinity Quarter: All have had planning for years with no work on site. Camden Quay allegedly had some work going on last week but I'd be shocked if it was related to the actual construction. I can't see any of these sites being developed as per their current proposals.

Concept/Pre Planning

Docklands Tower: 40 storey mixed use tower with the redevelopment of the existing customs house warehouses into cultural, tourist and retail space. By a mile the most ambitious development in Ireland. Announced over one year ago and no sign of a planning permission application yet, allegedly waiting for the Docklands development plan this summer to rezone heights for the site. If we don't see a planning application by the end of the year I'd be worried.

Ford Distribution Depot: Put on sale last week. Former site of the extremely ambitious Atlantic Quarter. Major development opportunity

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EdgeCase

Off board ticketing is important. The busses in Cork really seriously delay things with the very slow boarding.

If you get more than a few passengers boarding at a stop on a narrow street you often can't pass and the boarding time is very long with some passengers expecting change of notes and all sorts of mad stuff.

Also the lack of multiple doors on CIE busses in general is very odd. Not many urban bus systems have all the passengers trying to enter and exit through the front door. The same applies to Dublin Bus.

It all caused long dwell times and lack of convenience and also tends to result in people getting cold and wet standing there waiting to get in at busy stops.

For less mobile customers it's also challenging to have to move quickly to get past people moving the opposite direction. If you compare it to a typical continental bus, all doors open and people can get in and out easily.

The ticketing works fine on Luas. CIE just seems to be fixated on stamping things.

Tech is also cheaper and easier. I mean many of us can even already reload Leap on a mobile phone.

Making on board NFC payment standard would also be very very useful for casual users who could just tap and pay with a card, phone or watch using MasterCard / Visa.

AugustusMinimus

Isn’t the plan to run the Light Rail down McCurtain Street, over Patrick’s Bridge, Patrick’s Street and out the Western Road?

cgcsb

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Isn’t the plan to run the Light Rail down McCurtain Street, over Patrick’s Bridge, Patrick’s Street and out the Western Road?

thats the one

who_me

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Isn’t the plan to run the Light Rail down McCurtain Street, over Patrick’s Bridge, Patrick’s Street and out the Western Road?

Uh, really? I'd have thought the McCurtain St. / Bridge St. junction, and the Daunt Square corner seem impossibly tight for a light rail line to take.

namloc1980

who_me wrote: »

Uh, really? I'd have thought the McCurtain St. / Bridge St. junction, and the Daunt Square corner seem impossibly tight for a light rail line to take.

Plenty of space there.

Markcheese

snotboogie wrote: »

I'd be less concerned about the buses and more concerned about the general principals; most importantly the off board ticketing as you mentioned and dedicated lanes. It looks like this will not have dedicated lanes.

If it doesn't have dedicated lanes, and any taxi, minibus, BMW end up using it, (especially at junctions), it'll be ****e useless...
Basically Brt buses, and emergency services only... And if possible concrete dividers to separate the Brt lanes....

cgcsb

Bus connects will include camera enforcement at bottlenecks, areas where Audi drivers might fancy themselves a bus driver. I would imagine similar is planned for Cork. There'll also be demand management on roads. With Dunkettle upgraded to free flow, smaller junctions (Douglas and Pouladuff Rd) on the N40 will have to be closed to protect the N40's strategic function as a National road/ future motorway. A toll (or possibly tolls) to be put in place.

TheChizler

Is this all opinion or are you speaking from knowledge?

hans aus dtschl

cgcsb wrote: »

N40 will have to be closed to protect the N40's strategic function as a National road/ future motorway. A toll (or possibly tolls) to be put in place.

I suspect this can only happen if N40 north is completed. The alternative route is through the city centre.

cgcsb

TheChizler wrote: »

Is this all opinion or are you speaking from knowledge?

Knowledge, except camera enforcement, I'm not sure about that in Cork but can ask around, and/or you'll find out early next year anyway.

cgcsb

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I suspect this can only happen if N40 north is completed. The alternative route is through the city centre.

Not really, parallel link road for Douglas is planned to compensate. Pouladuff is a simple closure.

AugustusMinimus

cgcsb wrote: »

Not really, parallel link road for Douglas is planned to compensate. Pouladuff is a simple closure.

Where will this link road be?

who_me

namloc1980 wrote: »

Plenty of space there.

Really? Seems surprising to me. How do we see the layout? One line on the street, or one line either way? Because I can't see how 2 lines on the street could work, there's no way the inside lane could make it around those corners.

cgcsb

who_me wrote: »

Really? Seems surprising to me. How do we see the layout? One line on the street, or one line either way? Because I can't see how 2 lines on the street could work, there's no way the inside lane could make it around those corners.

Two tracks turning from the west side of Bridge St to the north side of McCurtain St. Buses and luas will share this section of road. There will be a general traffic lane on the east side of Bridge st turning right onto McCurtain st to provide access to loading and parking areas on the south side of McCurtain. The general traffic lane will disappear down harley st and the road will be narrowed to 2 luas/bus lanes only with wider footpaths. The luas will continue on the South side of McCurtain st with another general traffic lane on the north side of the street which will disappear up York st. Luas will continue down Alfred St into Kent and across a new bridge to the docklands.

This work will tie in closely with a propose 2 way cycle lane from Pope's Quay to Horgan's Quay on the riverside.

marno21

cgcsb, these posts are outlining a tremendous level of ambition that we've so sorely lacked. Thank you and I hope we get to see this all implemented some day

chalkitdown1

cgcsb wrote: »

Two tracks turning from the west side of Bridge St to the north side of McCurtain St. Buses and luas will share this section of road. There will be a general traffic lane on the east side of Bridge st turning right onto McCurtain st to provide access to loading and parking areas on the south side of McCurtain. The general traffic lane will disappear down harley st and the road will be narrowed to 2 luas/bus lanes only with wider footpaths. The luas will continue on the South side of McCurtain st with another general traffic lane on the north side of the street which will disappear up York st. Luas will continue down Alfred St into Kent and across a new bridge to the docklands.

This work will tie in closely with a propose 2 way cycle lane from Pope's Quay to Horgan's Quay on the riverside.

Do the McCurtain street Luas plans mean the reverting of that street to two-way has been scrapped? I definitely remember reading about that happening in 2019 earlier this year.

[Edit]

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/City-Council-moving-ahead-with-plans-for-two-way-MacCurtain-Street-c35d98d9-d3c3-42c5-a2b2-2a4a74a6c561-ds

TheChizler

chalkitdown1 wrote: »

Do the McCurtain street Luas plans mean the reverting of that street to two-way has been scrapped? I definitely remember reading about that happening in 2019 earlier this year.

[Edit]

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/City-Council-moving-ahead-with-plans-for-two-way-MacCurtain-Street-c35d98d9-d3c3-42c5-a2b2-2a4a74a6c561-ds

They'll get the best part of a decade out of it before anything happens surely

snotboogie

marno21 wrote: »

cgcsb, these posts are outlining a tremendous level of ambition that we've so sorely lacked. Thank you and I hope we get to see this all implemented some day

Yes I agree.

From his posts it seems like we will have a light rail line from Mahon to Ballincollig announced in Jan with construction to start in 2023?

Bus connects won’t have full BRT but will see a massive overhaul of the system? Will any of this be tendered out? How far out will it go? Will we see areas with heavy commuter traffic outside of the city like Carrigaline, Ringaskiddy, Little Island and the Airport get an overhaul too?

He mentioned the North Ring not being included, is this because it is outside of the remit of CMATS or because it has been shelved?

What about the bridges planned like the Eastern Gateway Bridge? Do these get a mention?

[Deleted User]

snotboogie wrote: »

Yes I agree.

From his posts it seems like we will have a light rail line from Mahon to Ballincollig announced in Jan with construction to start in 2023?

Bus connects won’t have full BRT but will see a massive overhaul of the system? Will any of this be tendered out? How far out will it go? Will we see areas with heavy commuter traffic outside of the city like Carrigaline, Ringaskiddy, Little Island and the Airport get an overhaul too?

He mentioned the North Ring not being included, is this because it is outside of the remit of CMATS or because it has been shelved?

What about the bridges planned like the Eastern Gateway Bridge? Do these get a mention?

Shur why would we need a North Circular road? It's not as if the tunnel is swamped with all the N/S traffic that really just needs to get to Ballincollig and west Cork

no.8

EdgeCase wrote:

You also have things like regenerative breaking which is a big deal in terms of efficiency as systems become bigger and busier.

Excellent points from both of you wrt electrification. While an interim solution is fine, I believe the current rolling stock on the commuter line are not fit for purpose when more stations are built. Acceleration, breaking, efficiency and general comfort tbf are key reasons. Would be wonderful to have an electrified line between Mallow and Midleton as the potential should be realised eventually.

no.8

EdgeCase wrote:

You also have things like regenerative breaking which is a big deal in terms of efficiency as systems become bigger and busier.

cgcsb

chalkitdown1 wrote: »

Do the McCurtain street Luas plans mean the reverting of that street to two-way has been scrapped? I definitely remember reading about that happening in 2019 earlier this year.

[Edit]

https://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/City-Council-moving-ahead-with-plans-for-two-way-MacCurtain-Street-c35d98d9-d3c3-42c5-a2b2-2a4a74a6c561-ds

It won't be possible to have 2 way flow. But there's some time before construction will begin. So it could be done for a short time.

cgcsb

snotboogie wrote: »

Yes I agree.

From his posts it seems like we will have a light rail line from Mahon to Ballincollig announced in Jan with construction to start in 2023?

Bus connects won’t have full BRT but will see a massive overhaul of the system? Will any of this be tendered out? How far out will it go? Will we see areas with heavy commuter traffic outside of the city like Carrigaline, Ringaskiddy, Little Island and the Airport get an overhaul too?

He mentioned the North Ring not being included, is this because it is outside of the remit of CMATS or because it has been shelved?

What about the bridges planned like the Eastern Gateway Bridge? Do these get a mention?

To answer some of your questions. The more distant commuter towns aren't really the focus of cmats although they will have improved service levels. Similar to Dublin's bus connects, the infrastructure part will be solely focused on the continuous urban area.

CNRR is more of a TII project and for the purpose of CMATs it's not considered in the modelling because such a road would not be designed for trips that start and end in the urban area. Demand management on the existing N40 is the favoured TII approach for now afaik.

A public transport, walking and cycling bridge is included that will carry the luas between Kent and the South docks. This would be East of all other bridges in the city but it's name is not yet clear.

Markcheese

cgcsb wrote: »

It won't be possible to have 2 way flow. But there's some time before construction will begin. So it could be done for a short time.

Short time?? As in 20 years. :-)
Or even in the likelihood of Brt line they'll just send the one way down the bus/just parking for a few minutes lane... And the other direction down the keys...

snotboogie

cgcsb wrote: »

To answer some of your questions. The more distant commuter towns aren't really the focus of cmats although they will have improved service levels. Similar to Dublin's bus connects, the infrastructure part will be solely focused on the continuous urban area.

CNRR is more of a TII project and for the purpose of CMATs it's not considered in the modelling because such a road would not be designed for trips that start and end in the urban area. Demand management on the existing N40 is the favoured TII approach for now afaik.

A public transport, walking and cycling bridge is included that will carry the luas between Kent and the South docks. This would be East of all other bridges in the city but it's name is not yet clear.

Appreciate the answers, great input

opus

Took a pic over the fence of the ongoing work by the railway station as was around there at lunchtime today. Sorry for the glare, it was one of the few sunny parts of the day.

marno21

Simon Coveney on RedFM this morning talking with Neil about the Events Centre, from 21 minutes in

http://www.redfm.ie/on-air/podcasts/neil-prendeville-on-redfm/episode/21st-december-2018

He reckons construction will start in Q2 2019 assuming approval of the planning permission by Cork City Council and no appeals to ABP.

j8wk2feszrnpao

marno21 wrote: »

He reckons construction will start in Q2 2019 assuming approval of the planning permission by Cork City Council and no appeals to ABP.

I'm taking that with a grain of salt. He put his snout front and center during the sod turning, and the lies and delays since, means his word isn't worth much. When they start construction, then I'll believe it.

EnzoScifo

I wouldn't hold my breath. The revised planning application is flawed and in my opinion an insult to the City.

I want an events centre, but not at the expense of our historic centre.

questionmark?

EnzoScifo wrote: »

I want an events centre, but not at the expense of our historic centre.

Do you want to explain that statement?