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The Grapevine (OFF TOPIC CHAT) Part II

Tar.Aldarion

Welcome to the new chat thread! The previous installment can be found here.
I will copy in some posts from the last thread now to help continue on!

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gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So now you’re accusing me of being self-righteous ? And I’m beating you up ? Jesus.

Well you gain pleasure in many ways from torturing animals - Financially. Taste. Superiority. Social acceptance. Those are just a few that spring to mind.

No. If you check they were general comments and refer to the experience of meat eaters being criticised for their activities and / or beliefs whilst an existing dichotomy is evident with the perceived status of domestic versus wild animals as opined by many vegans in my experience. I have already detailed this issue in previous posts.

Ok back to the references of 'Torturing' - first - 'Taste'. I'm trying not to be pedantic - but at the point of 'taste - an animal is ready to be eaten - the animal is dead and cannot feel anything. So imo no there cannot be any torture with this aspect of 'taste'. Where torture is defined as "the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure" - Merriam-webster online Dictionary. 'Financial'? Much of what a farmer earns is ploughed straight back into a farm and the looking after animals including feed - vetinary care - land management for grazing etc etc. So no I do not accept that there is evident 'torture' there. Superiority? Social acceptance - how the frack does any of the above translate into the torture of animals as defined.

Ok can you try and be a bit more specific rather than throwing a bunch of nouns into a sentence. I really am struggling with that specific phrase is in any way relevant to the day to day care of domestic animals. Thanks.

gozunda

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Most vegans like the taste of meat, all I ate was steak. I don't want to be vegan, I just logically came to the conclusion I should after a lot of thought.

I always got the idea that there was a lot of repulsion by many vegans relative to meat. I suppose I have not thought about it like that previously.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

We have a responsibility to lessen harm, whether it be food miles, non-sweatshop clothes, or not killing others for pleasure of taste. Most people try and do their bit and try to improve what they themselves do. However we are brought up in a society where use of sentient feeling beings has been taught to us as not just acceptable but a right and it's hard to shake world views instilled into you from birth.

I would agree with most of what you have said there tbh.

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Originally man just thought of himself as another animal and there is a good book called Sapiens partly about this that I am just finishing. It goes into how it was universal monotheist religions like Christianity that were the first to elevate us as above other animals in our minds. "We directly communicate with God, we are different than the rest of you!". This then helped justify our oppression of other peoples/animals with our divine authority. It talks about that even if we throw off the yoke of subjugation of the likes of Christianity or an empire like Rome it is too late for us, we think like they wanted us to think, we speak their language, we use their roads, we hold to their values, our world outlook is theirs and our past culture is forever gone. Be born in a Catholic country you grow up as a Catholic, same with Islam, same with any moral beliefs which are instilled by our forebears, always a challenge to change these things. And then when you do you forget how hard tit is for others because you forget how it wasn't obvious to you all along.

Is there a real danger that we have swapped new beliefs such as veganism for old time religion?

Havnt read that book - but I think I'll try a get a copy. Btw I agree and "I blame the Romans" - What did they ever do for us"?

I do find it ironic though that Ireland as one of the few countries in western Europe, not to be invaded by the Romans- it was Ireland alone which adopted the Roman patronym 'Patricius' as a national prenom. Go figure eh...

[Deleted User]

gozunda wrote: »

No. If you check they were general comments and refer to the experience of meat eaters being criticised for their activities and / or beliefs whilst an existing dichotomy is evident with the perceived status of domestic versus wild animals as opined by many vegans in my experience. I have already detailed this issue in previous posts.

Ok back to the references of 'Torturing' - first - 'Taste'. I'm trying not to be pedantic - but at the point of 'taste - an animal is ready to be eaten - the animal is dead and cannot feel anything. So imo no there cannot be any torture with this aspect of 'taste'. Where torture is defined as "the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure" - Merriam-webster online Dictionary. 'Financial'? Much of what a farmer earns is ploughed straight back into a farm and the looking after animals including feed - vetinary care - land management for grazing etc etc. So no I do not accept that there is evident 'torture' there. Superiority? Social acceptance - how the frack does any of the above translate into the torture of animals as defined.

Ok can you try and be a bit more specific rather than throwing a bunch of nouns into a sentence. I really am struggling with that specific phrase is in any way relevant to the day to day care of domestic animals. Thanks.

In relation to your first paragraph -

So you aren’t having a discussion with me anymore ?

You’re just taking this opportunity to make general points that you want to make about all carnists or all vegans ?

Sure just do that on your own. Don’t involve me.

And it realtion to your last paragraph -

You don’t care for an animal by imprisoning it, torturing and slaughtering it because that’s what you are doing if it’s your job or if you’re paying someone to do it, for example, buying meat, milk, cheese etc.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In relation to your first paragraph -

So you aren’t having a discussion with me anymore ? You’re just taking this opportunity to make general points that you want to make about all carnists or all vegans ?Sure just do that on your own. Don’t involve me

Seriously - Are you really so determined to appear insulted again? They were general points made as part of the previous posts about domestic/ wild animals and relative values. Those issues had already been discussed with you. Whats not to understand??? :mad:

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And it realtion to your last paragraph -
You don’t care for an animal by imprisoning it, torturing and slaughtering it because that’s what you are doing if it’s your job or if you’re paying someone to do it, for example, buying meat, milk, cheese etc.

Simply No - what was asked was how the inclusion of the word 'torture' included in your comments relates to the definition of torture (as given by the Miriam-webster dictionary

definition of torture -
the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

Avoiding that question by once again quoting an abused online phrase detailed below and which can be found on any number of websites without qualification or explanation.

Perhaps you would explain where the 'infliction of intense pain ... sadistic pleasure & etc ' comes into your latest comment even if anyone was to agree to the following statement you gave "You don’t care for an animal by imprisoning it, torturing and slaughtering if it’s your job or if you’re paying someone to do it, for example, buying meat, milk, cheese etc".

The use of the phrase "torturing" and it's actual definition completely fail to add up in this and in the previous instance. Explain that.

That is all I am asking. Thanks

[Deleted User]

I think torture is the perfect word to describe the period of time from birth to slaughter.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I think torture is the perfect word to describe the period of time from birth to slaughter.

Ok you can't provide a bona fide answer to the question asked ...

So no will not do - again how does the definition of torture as given by the Merriam- Webster dictionary relate to your reply?

definition of torture - the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

Answer it doesn't - even using the most basic comprehension of the English language

Again you are use much abused terminology found on any number of unsupported websites without knowing what the actual words mean.

It does not help your argument one tiny little bit..

[Deleted User]

gozunda wrote: »

Ok you can't provide a bona fide answer to the question asked ...

So no will not do - again how does the definition of torture as given by the Merriam- Webster dictionary relate to your reply?

Answer it doesn't - even using the most basic comprehension of the English language

Again you are use much abused terminology found on any number of unsupported websites without knowing what the actual words mean.

It does not help your argument one tiny little bit..

Afraid I’ll not be responding to you anymore Gozunda.

Having seen your comments in the other thread I believe you are just in here for the wind-up and to take the pîss so please don’t expect me to respond to you any more as my time is more valuable than that.

I don’t believe you to be sincere and I should have trusted my gut previously but I wasted my time and gave you the benefit of the doubt. I still refuse to believe all farmers will engage as you do and that some will be interested in a genuine discussion.

I expect you’ll respond with some attempt of sincerity but I’m afraid you’ve blown your cover and I won’t be engaging again.

gozunda

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Afraid I’ll not be responding to you anymore Gozunda.

Having seen your comments in the other thread I believe you are just in here for the wind-up and to take the pîss so please don’t expect me to respond to you any more as my time is more valuable than that. I don’t believe you to be sincere and I should have trusted my gut previously but I wasted my time and gave you the benefit of the doubt. I still refuse to believe all farmers will engage as you do and that some will be interested in a genuine discussion.
I expect you’ll respond with some attempt of sincerity but I’m afraid you’ve blown your cover and I won’t be engaging again.

Klop - I could understand your position if you had genuinely tried to answer the simple question I asked in this thread, however you have clearly refused to do so over many pages and streadfastly failed to engage with that in genuine discussion. You have rather took to taking an occasional strop when suits. And yes I fear you've just done that again...

Rather than engaging fully it is evident you have kept repeating that same phrase - which if you do a quick Google search comes back with at least 250, 000 hits and in as many of those hits which I checked - that same phrase and found it is used again and again without any understanding of what those words actually mean in context.

Copying and pasting such material will never make for any type of convincing argument to anyone with any discernment.

In my opinion that lack of understanding is the main inherent flaw in much of such rhetoric. Using copy and paste phrases instead of a rational discussion does your argument no favours whatsoever. It really is that simple. I do hope you at least understand that now.

As for farmers and many others you will find that they cannot engage in any meaningful way with you - when you default position is to bark the mantra of "imprisonment torture slaughter" at them repeatedly without any understanding.

And yes I'm happy with the other thread - that is AH and yes you will require at least some humour to go there. Monthly Python is always funny. It works both ways ...

Tar.Aldarion

gozunda wrote: »

I always got the idea that there was a lot of repulsion by many vegans relative to meat. I suppose I have not thought about it like that previously.

I would agree with most of what you have said there tbh.

Is there a real danger that we have swapped new beliefs such as veganism for old time religion?

Havnt read that book - but I think I'll try a get a copy. Btw I agree and "I blame the Romans" - What did they ever do for us"?

I do find it ironic though that Ireland as one of the few countries in western Europe, not to be invaded by the Romans- it was Ireland alone which adopted the Roman patronym 'Patricius' as a national prenom. Go figure eh...

A vegan may come to not like the idea of meat after some time, animals are dissociated from food when you don't eat them. Beforehand, when somebody becomes vegan they've been eating meat their whole lives, possibly argued against veganism and so on. It's generally a position taken from the opposite of what they once believed so you can see they would of course like meat from their previous actions. It's is generally the case that somebody that is vegan has most likely thought to themselves that they will never be a vegan.

There is always a danger of traits of religion entering into any held belief. I'll often see posts on both sides with terrible logic being thanked on boards for instance, because you are throwing your lot in with anything that slightly agrees with you or puts another belief down. Blind following of anything in favour of what you believe... or what you want to believe. Let's just say that on average (zealotry of youth aside), that somebody changing their whole lifestyle, going against society and their whole upbringing to do something they don't want to do, like veganism, causing themselves a lot of hassle in daily life, all stemming from a point of introspection and evaluation of though is unlikely to be a religious zealotry like being raised and conditioned to believe in something.

New Home

It's a start, at least.

gozunda

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Most vegans like the taste of meat, all I ate was steak. I don't want to be vegan, I just logically came to the conclusion I should after a lot of thought.

We have a responsibility to lessen harm, whether it be food miles, non-sweatshop clothes, or not killing others for pleasure of taste. Most people try and do their bit and try to improve what they themselves do. However we are brought up in a society where use of sentient feeling beings has been taught to us as not just acceptable but a right and it's hard to shake world views instilled into you from birth.

Originally man just thought of himself as another animal and there is a good book called Sapiens partly about this that I am just finishing. It goes into how it was universal monotheist religions like Christianity that were the first to elevate us as above other animals in our minds. "We directly communicate with God, we are different than the rest of you!". This then helped justify our oppression of other peoples/animals with our divine authority. It talks about that even if we throw off the yoke of subjugation of the likes of Christianity or an empire like Rome it is too late for us, we think like they wanted us to think, we speak their language, we use their roads, we hold to their values, our world outlook is theirs and our past culture is forever gone. Be born in a Catholic country you grow up as a Catholic, same with Islam, same with any moral beliefs which are instilled by our forebears, always a challenge to change these things. And then when you do you forget how hard tit is for others because you forget how it wasn't obvious to you all along.

My apologies- only coming back to this now. Tbh my initial reluctance continue the discussion in general (and not you btw) was somewhat predicated by certain comments which I found unnecessarily nasty and aggressive. I then completely forgot about it.

Anyway to your point about 'liking' meat and your disclosure that as a meat eater- you ate mainly steak. May I ask why was it so and do you think that was inpart influential in your move to a vegan diet?

My own personal experience is that I eat meat - however it is part of what I would describe as a fairly mixed diet. My dietery habits mean that I will happily eat any combination from the main food groups. That said I prefer to eat seasonly and locally produce where possible for a number of reasons which are I suppose at best a mix of eating a healthy diet and a wish to support local enterprise and employment.

Leaving aside the idea that all humans have a inherent mandate or desire to "lessen harm"(?) - I would accept that largescale industrialised farming as it is practised etc is far from a ideal model for food production. However I would put forward that intensive crop production on the same scale has as many detrimental impacts on the environment and other living things. The death large numbers of other animals and organisms is a very real consequence of all the most intensive arable and horticultural practices. The environmental impacts of such intensive cultivation in my experience is a hugely significant issue that deserves at least equal attention to that of animal farming.

Regarding the issue of religion - I do think there is a danger that by viewing ourselves as wholly removed from other animals and the planet's ecology - there is also a very real risk of some seing themselves as almost having a godlike role with regard to other living things. I believe this is in contrast to the largely relict religous ethos of humans having "dominion over animals" .

loveisdivine

There's an ad on the radio at the minute that's driving me mad. It's children singing "Connaught Gold Milk is made for us, made for us, made for us" and various other things and I want to scream at the radio everytime and say "It's literally made for baby cows! Not for you stupid children!" But I can't, cos I only hear it at work!

TheFortField

Has anyone else noticed a slight tanning of their skin since going vegan/vegetarian?

I’ve had porcelain white skin all my life but since switching to a plant based diet I’ve developed a light tan. A few people have commented on it in a positive way, that I look very healthy or they’ve asked if I had a few days away in the sun :pac:

davidjtaylor

TheFortField wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed a slight tanning of their skin since going vegan/vegetarian?

I’ve had porcelain white skin all my life but since switching to a plant based diet I’ve developed a light tan. A few people have commented on it in a positive way, that I look very healthy or they’ve asked if I had a few days away in the sun :pac:

You’ve now got so much iron that you’re going rusty.:)

TheFortField

davidjtaylor wrote: »

You’ve now got so much iron that you’re going rusty.:)

Haha, I wish

I have to watch the old iron levels. Does anyone else do the lower eyelid test? I find it’s a fairly reliable indicator of when my iron levels are low.

I take a glass of freshly make juice every day and I think it’s helping my iron levels (it might also be helping the tan

)

Juice - Kale, Spinach, Broccoli, Turmeric, Orange, Apple & Blueberries.

Tar.Aldarion

TheFortField wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed a slight tanning of their skin since going vegan/vegetarian?

I’ve had porcelain white skin all my life but since switching to a plant based diet I’ve developed a light tan. A few people have commented on it in a positive way, that I look very healthy or they’ve asked if I had a few days away in the sun :pac:

Careful you don't have Jaundice or something!

TheFortField

Thanks very much TA for the friendly advice

My GP informs me that my light tan is a perfectly harmless reaction to my high intake of carotene rich foods. The ‘tan’ will fade as soon as I reduce my intake of these foods..

Tar.Aldarion

carrots, squash, and sweet potatoes out the wazoo haha.

Worztron

TheFortField wrote: »

Thanks very much TA for the friendly advice My GP informs me that my light tan is a perfectly harmless reaction to my high intake of carotene rich foods. The ‘tan’ will fade as soon as I reduce my intake of these foods..

Hi TheFortField. Your vitamin A levels should be great.

TheFortField

Just popping by to wish you all a very Happy Christmas/Holidays and to thank you for all your great recipes, advice and support. My WFPB diet journey has been a bit of a learning curve but overall it’s been a fantastic change for the good! Thank you all

Tar.Aldarion

And to you, glad it's been positive and that the forum has helped, and long may it continue.

rubadub

saw these in tesco on offer, might be posted before, I never saw them before

https://www.tesco.ie/groceries/Product/Details/?id=301795243

Goodfella's Vegan Falafel Pizza 377G
Special OfferSAVE 99c Was 3.99 No...
valid until 28/1/2019

Tar.Aldarion

Cheers for the tip!

Worztron

rubadub wrote: »

saw these in tesco on offer, might be posted before, I never saw them before

https://www.tesco.ie/groceries/Product/Details/?id=301795243

Goodfella's Vegan Falafel Pizza 377G
Special OfferSAVE 99c Was 3.99 No...
valid until 28/1/2019

Excellent! I must try that.

F1ngers

Found Almond Baileys in Super Valu in Tallaght, imported from the US by Diageo Ireland.
They may be in other Super Valus'/other shops.

E25 for 0.7L(I think).

davidjtaylor

It’s in the offie in the Crescent shopping centre in Limerick too (can’t think of the shop name right now).

rubadub

Saw vegan magnums in tesco too, again never heard of them before

Magnum Vegan Almond Ice Cream 270Ml
Special OfferSAVE 1.69 Was 4.69 Now 3.00
valid from 1/1/2019 until 28/1/2019

Magnum Vegan Classic Ice Cream 270Ml
Special OfferSAVE 1.69 Was 4.69 Now 3.00
valid from 1/1/2019 until 28/1/2019

and 2 "dees" products are half price, which I know are usually expensive.
https://www.tesco.ie/groceries/product/search/default.aspx?searchBox=vegan

Tar.Aldarion

The Magnums are really great, so are the vegan Ben & Jerry's. Dee's products are really healthy and tasty compared to similar products, they are a steal at half price as they are so handy. I must pick up a ton of her lunch pots, the thai coconut one is delicious.

loveisdivine

Greggs vegan sausage rolls now available in a couple of Belfast stores and the Applegreens on the M1 south of Belfast!

thesandeman

That vegetarian white pudding that Aldi or Lidl were trying out last year is now available in my local SuperValu. It's kept in the same fridge as the Happy Pear stuff.
While I think it's lovely I'm still torn about buying it as the manufacturer is also a butcher and I don't want to be supporting that side of his business.