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Free Travel Pass Holders on peak time public transport

Emme

I have just got on the train. I pay over €3K a year for the privilege of travelling to work and €250 a year for parking. I am forced to commute by train because there are no viable alternatives. Driving is out because it would take 2 hours or more each way on the N7. There are no buses that go from my area. I cannot afford to live any closer to work. There are thousands of people in my position.

Eveey morning a good proportion of the seats are taken up by what look like free travel pass holders. Sometimes people like myself (paying commuters) have to stand because of this. From Athy on more people have to stand. Meanwhile the FTP holders who got on in Waterford or Kilkenny bask in comfort.

I understand some of them have to go to hospital appointments which is fair enough. But the gaggle of 8 mature women talking loudly about their shopping trip could have got a later train. They will probably get a peak time train home in the evening as will many of the other FTP holders. They always seem to get to the train first in the evenings while people who rush to the train from work often have to stand.

When you are tired and burnt out you can get angry and resentful. Angry and resentful of getting nothing for your taxes and paying a huge chunk of your salary to commute (often standing each way) while those who pay nothing get the seats.

I agree that some of these people worked hard and paid high taxes in their time but not as many of them were forced to do long commutes. They didn't have to work under the same pressure as people do now. Many of the women could be full time mums while many commuting women do not have this choice. Many of the FTP holders are in better health and more energetic than exhausted commuters. Yet we will have to work far longer than they did. Because of their energy they are able to protest if the government takes away their full time FTPs. There was a time it was for off peak travel only.

Meanwhile commuters are getting screwed in every way but are too exhausted to do anything.

The FTP should be for off peak travel only. If the government wants to give it to pensioners full time it should be means tested. If some of them can afford to shop in BTs they can surely afford the price of a train ticket.

Many will disagree with me. But I am tired of paying so much and getting nothing in return.

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MrMusician18

Goldengirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

No it wasn't. You said everyone needed to have contributed prsi for the FTP. There is no taking out of context.

Anyone, no one is making the case for the ftp scheme to be abolished, but reformed so those that have a real need to be out in the morning peak have a better chance at getting a seat, or even getting on at all.

ohnonotgmail

Goldengirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

For the sake of clarity this is the post i responded to and my reply. The bolding is mine. Can you clarify how i have taken you out of context?

Goldengirl wrote: »

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ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Everybody 66 or over is entitled to a FTP. no contributions necessary. Those 65 or under who receive disability allowance get a FTP. No contributions are required to receive disability allowance.

Goldengirl

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MrMusician18

Goldengirl wrote: »

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PRSI is stamps.

More capacity will just be filled with more FTP holders. It's a phenomenon known as trip generation.

The elderly are the wealthiest cohort of society btw.

Goldengirl

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ohnonotgmail

Goldengirl wrote: »

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you were wrong. own it and move on. faux clever answers just make you look worse.

Goldengirl

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Goldengirl

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MrMusician18

Goldengirl wrote: »

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The wealthiest group in society? Those are the vulnerable people we're talking about?

Not quite, but when you add capacity to a route and the only reason that people are staying off is due to congestion (rather than price) you'll find that the new extra capacity gets filled very quickly. If the argument is that ftp holders are staying off peak public transportation because of congestion (which has been made on this thread) when you add capacity you will get more ftp users. Transport economics 101.

Btw If you knew what prsi was you wouldn't have accused me of misquoting you.

As the above poster said, own your mistakes.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No it wasn't. You said everyone needed to have contributed prsi for the FTP. There is no taking out of context.

Anyone, no one is making the case for the ftp scheme to be abolished, but reformed so those that have a real need to be out in the morning peak have a better chance at getting a seat, or even getting on at all.

Charging a fee to FTP pass users on rush hour traffic who don’t need to be there will barely make a dent in seat availability.

This is a problem the world over - there is a reluctance to increase capacity on rush hour transport when even the current capacity available is not even half full at the off-peak times. Charging FTP holders for non-necessary rush hour journeys won’t solve this problem.

ohnonotgmail

Goldengirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

you edited your post and it is still wrong. Contributions are irrelevant to the FTP. they are taken into account when considering eligibility. And nor should they.

MrMusician18

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Charging a fee to FTP pass users on rush hour traffic who don’t need to be there will barely make a dent in seat availability.

This is a problem the world over - there is a reluctance to increase capacity on rush hour transport when even the current capacity available is not even half full at the off-peak times. Charging FTP holders for non-necessary rush hour journeys won’t solve this problem.

There was 8 FTP holders that got on whilst i was on the bus this morning and 10 commuters standing.
Most sprightly enough to get up the stairs as well.

Graces7

MrMusician18 wrote: »

There was 8 FTP holders that got on whilst i was on the bus this morning and 10 commuters standing.
Most sprightly enough to get up the stairs as well.

Good for them

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

MrMusician18 wrote: »

There was 8 FTP holders that got on whilst i was on the bus this morning and 10 commuters standing.
Most sprightly enough to get up the stairs as well.

I remain bemused at people constantly referring to the mobility of FTP users in this thread. It covers serious illnesses as well as disabilities. I can usually climb stairs on public transport but if I told you why I qualify, you wouldn’t argue that I need the pass, believe me. You have no idea what is going on health-wise with anyone you see with a pass. Many very serious illnesses don’t show. You would not know to look at me that anything was wrong with me. You don’t know anything of the health status of any of those FTP holder you saw this morning. Not a jot. Even if you are a doctor, glancing at randomers won’t inform you of whether they have an illness or not. Where did you get this superpower?

PlaneSpeeking

Graces7 wrote: »

Good for them

In what way ?

The fact that they are allegedly disabled enough to warrant an FTP but can get up stairs on a moving bus with no issues - I can't even do that!

MrMusician18

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Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I remain bemused at people constantly referring to the mobility of FTP users in this thread. It covers serious illnesses as well as disabilities. I can usually climb stairs on public transport but if I told you why I qualify, you wouldn’t argue that I need the pass, believe me. You have no idea what is going on health-wise with anyone you see with a pass. Many very serious illnesses don’t show. You would not know to look at me that anything was wrong with me. You don’t know anything of the health status of any of those FTP holder you saw this morning. Not a jot. Even if you are a doctor, glancing at randomers won’t inform you of whether they have an illness or not. Where did you get this superpower?

It also covers people with no illness at all. The vast majority of FTP holders that use the pass have nothing seriously wrong with them, they are just over 66.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

MrMusician18 wrote: »

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It also covers people with no illness at all. The vast majority of FTP holders that use the pass have nothing seriously wrong with them, they are just over 66.

Yes and their level of mobility tells you precisely nothing of their health status. If you saw me using an FTP and going up some stairs, you’d be judging me based on what you’ve said (you brought up mobility) because I don’t look ill.

Ability to climb stairs =/= being in full health or anywhere near it.

iamwhoiam

MrMusician18 wrote: »

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It also covers people with no illness at all. The vast majority of FTP holders that use the pass have nothing seriously wrong with them, they are just over 66.

Yes, isnt it great that some of us are still mobile and healthy and able to get about and enjoy it when over 66. I hope you too can enjoy that in time !

[Deleted User]

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Charging a fee to FTP pass users on rush hour traffic who don’t need to be there will barely make a dent in seat availability.

This is a problem the world over - there is a reluctance to increase capacity on rush hour transport when even the current capacity available is not even half full at the off-peak times. Charging FTP holders for non-necessary rush hour journeys won’t solve this problem.

There was 8 FTP holders that got on whilst i was on the bus this morning and 10 commuters standing.
Most sprightly enough to get up the stairs as well.

How can you tell? Were you inspecting passes at the door or what?

Spanish Eyes

There are still the cornflake box cards going around. Flash it to the driver and off you go.

Anyway, I wouldn't begrudge it to anyone (wish I had it myself lol). But the chancers need to be culled.

I am guessing that most people will avoid the rush hour like the fecking plague. Well so would I.

end of the road

Sir Oxman wrote: »

But I didn't suggest that - I said at sometime in the future maybe the PSC card which is used for FT now could be part of a wholly integrated public service.

And what is wrong with suggesting all FTP holders pay a small percentage during peak hours?

nothing wrong with suggesting it. however, it brings nothing to the table if implemented. something like this is likely to cost, more then what it would bring in . if we were to implement this, there would need to be a huge benefit in return. realistically, there is going to be no benefit in return, which makes it worth implementing, so it would be throwing away money.
i can see your point about integrating all public services, but there is only so far that can really go, and i suspect any integration will be slow and when funding allows, and even then, the integration will be about bringing actual benefits.
you may want everyone to contribute something for everything, but that is probably going to cost, as a fellow tax payer, i honestly don't want to pay more for that.

Sir Oxman wrote: »

Please don't assume.

Obviously you and the likes of you cannot even contemplate an alternative point of view or suggestions to make things fairer and eventually more efficient.

Notice I haven't argued against any of the positives of FTP expressed in this thread or said it is a waste of money etc etc

it is already fair though. we are never going to have 100% fairness where we all receive the same benefits. that's just not possible. there are certain things we can change to make parts of society fairer but this isn't one of them.

end of the road

devondudley wrote: »

i live in a small town 30 mins from a city, to go out for a few pints i often get the bus for a few Sunday sessions. last week out of 12 that got on the bus im the only one who paid. i know this i was first on and sat up the front we dont have leap card as not in the area. ive lost count of the number of times one or two at max people have paid while rest use the pass.

im not too bothered by whos entitled to it or not but it always gets me wondering with the free travel how people give out about the quality and price of the service of both trains and buses when for example im the only one of 12 paying so im the only income bus eireann got from that route.

bus eireann would have got a payment from the dsp for the pass users, and an operating subsidy from the NTA assuming your bus route is a public service obligation route. so they do get income other then the fare payer.

noodler wrote: »

Different time.

only in terms of the year the restriction was abolished. other then that, everything else that would be related was similar to now.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

No it wasn't. You said everyone needed to have contributed prsi for the FTP. There is no taking out of context.

Anyone, no one is making the case for the ftp scheme to be abolished, but reformed so those that have a real need to be out in the morning peak have a better chance at getting a seat, or even getting on at all.

that can be done via buying extra vehicles. something that needs to be done anyway and which will have an actual benefit even if it costs a lot.

MrMusician18 wrote: »

PRSI is stamps.

More capacity will just be filled with more FTP holders. It's a phenomenon known as trip generation.

The elderly are the wealthiest cohort of society btw.

the extra and needed capacity will mostly be filled by paying passengers, just like now. this supposed phenomenon known as trip generation if it even exists, will barely be a blip over all. the more users using public transport the better, the more it justifies increases to services, and the more benefits it brings.

Knine

MrMusician18 wrote: »

There was 8 FTP holders that got on whilst i was on the bus this morning and 10 commuters standing.
Most sprightly enough to get up the stairs as well.

I'm pretty sprightly & I have a FTP. Unless you know the individual with the pass, I would not be making assumptions. Carers get them too. Although I can't manage my daughter on a bus so I have to drive her around but sometimes I use the pass myself.

prinzeugen

MrMusician18 wrote: »

There was 8 FTP holders that got on whilst i was on the bus this morning and 10 commuters standing.
Most sprightly enough to get up the stairs as well.

The 10 standing were probably the sort of twats that stand and block the entrance even although the upper deck is empty.

Every bus has them. Too lazy to go upstairs and look for a seat.

Goldengirl

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Goldengirl

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Annasopra

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Well obviously. What the OP is suggesting is a change in policy. Free anything is always a bad idea, it leads to abuse

Ah self entitled workers. You mean those that pay for everything and get the least in return? Those people?

Abuse me hole. The only abuse is the begrudgery of those giving out about the travel passes.

Annasopra

troyzer wrote: »

Yes, it does.

The free travel pass is a good idea but it shouldn't come at the expense of people who are paying both for themselves and the travel pass.

The OP is right. As a 25 year old it just depresses me how older people managed to shaft my generation with national debt, an unaffordable housing market and lower salaries whilst simultaneously enjoying benefits at our expense that we'll never have like state pensions and free travel passes.

That's how society works and that's fine, hopefully things will get better slowly for us. But in the meantime, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that if you're going to get free travel passes then you shouldn't be allowed to use them at peak times.

You don't need to be in Dublin nine in the morning, people who work do. Unless you have a medical appointment of course, in which case it should be free.

By the way, I think the OP is probably taking too many liberties by assuming they're FTPHs. But we all know that public transport capacity is bursting at the seams so even if you can reduce the numbers by 5-10% it would help.

Thats mad.

Your argument is there intergenerational inequality. I have lesser economic conditions than my elders. Therefore make their conditions worse. Thats just bonkers. Why would you want to solve the inequality by keeping older peoples conditions good and working to make younger peoples conditions better.

Hard to understand why working people want to take away good public services for older people. They will be old themselves. And then they cant exactly moan about lack of public services then.

Goldengirl

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Annasopra

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I'm afraid it does Grace. Reducing the cost of any service where demand is controlled by price always leads to an increase in use when prices fall. Another example of this is free GP care for under sixes has led to a 30% increase in under sixes attending the GP. If free services are not ever abused there should only have been a marginal increase in visits.

Anecdotally I know of plenty of OAPs that use their FTP to go on excursions and day trips that they would not have taken if they were paying €30 for the day return

This is just silly. Use is not abuse. Its actually a good thing that people goto the doctor more. It means their health improves and it means that they can go early and prevent sickness getting worse.

So what if oaps go on day trips.

That is a good thing. It is good for oaps to be out and about, socialising, meeting people and it is good for shops in towns.

The begrudgery that an oap goes on a day trip every so often is quite sickening to be honest.