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Brexit discussion thread V - No Pic/GIF dumps please

Rhineshark

kuro68k wrote: »

The British government is going to take it right to the cliff edge and hope that someone else compromises. Of course they have their excuses already lined up if no-one does, only real question is who they will blame.

1. The EU
2. Remainers
3. Ireland
4. Corbyn

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Leroy42

EdgeCase wrote: »

It looks like the 'project fear' chants worked to silence any criticism.

This. Look at the car companies. The CEO's are very wary to say anything and even when they do they are immediately cast as some sort of EU loving traitors and not to be listened to. We get some MP from Dulwich or South Sommerset Downs who has never even seen the inside of a car manufacturing plant telling the BBC that the CEO simply needs to think differently and look at all the new markets that BRexit will deliver.

There is a real concern that speaking out will have a negative impact on consumer sentiment towards your product. And in the main, these big companies, the car companies etc, have the resources to work around whatever Brexit throws up. Either moving or adjusting.

But as shown in the posters pharma lab example, not every company can simply up sticks and move. But even if they can, that does nothing for the majority of the workers whi will be replaced by locals at the new base.

Still now, TM is not actually spelling out what is so bad about hard BRexit. This most she will say is that this deal is better. How though? They seemed so scared that laying out the real impact of a no deal would potentially lead to a call for No Brexit at all that they seem to be trying to sugarglaze the whole thing.

One needs to also remember that HMG have spent a lot of time, effort and money to keep these business's quite. Non disclosure agreements had to be signed before they could get participation in the discussions. Nissan received an assurance that they would be sorted should they suffer anything from Brexit. My bet is that there is loads of that going on, we just heard about the Nissan one. No way the other car companies simply sat idly by.

Water John

That is of A soccer match I think. Certainly not the Situation Room in the White House.

Surely that lab, if in Wales should have opened a small office in eg Wexford. Split their staff, who ever wants to work in Wexford either does so Mon-Fri and take the ferry or relocate. They have options, so many UK Cos don't.
I'd prefer to have the job in Wexford than the dole.

BonnieSituation

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Wasn't that the infamous Bin Laden photo?

It was the champions League final between Bayern and Chelsea in 2012.

Leroy42

Water John wrote: »

That is of A soccer match I think. Certainly not the Situation Room in the White House.

Surely that lab, if in Wales should have opened a small office in eg Wexford. Split their staff, who ever wants to work in Wexford either does so Mon-Fri and take the ferry or relocate. They have options, so many UK Cos don't.
I'd prefer to have the job in Wexford than the dole.

I suppose they bought into the brief that everything was going to be alright. Why go to all the hassle and expense of setting up a potential move to Wexford when they are being told it won't be needed.

Even from a HR point of view, announcing that they were planning to move would have a negative impact on staff, so maybe they simply hoped for the best. Certainly, that seems to be the case for many businesses in the UK. On the VoxPops on the news, many small business owners state they fear for the future but are in the dark and simply hope it will all work out.

The whole of the UK seems to be operating like that.

Faisal Islam from Sky News did a story recently about the Irish government brexit roadshow where they talked to local business about the potential impacts of Brexit, the availability of loans to help diversify etc. The main point was that there is nothing even remotely like this going on in the UK. They have done nothing to prepare for Brexit, they are still telling everyone that nothing will change.

lawred2

Water John wrote: »

That is of A soccer match I think. Certainly not the Situation Room in the White House.

Surely that lab, if in Wales should have opened a small office in eg Wexford. Split their staff, who ever wants to work in Wexford either does so Mon-Fri and take the ferry or relocate. They have options, so many UK Cos don't.
I'd prefer to have the job in Wexford than the dole.

lab equipment doesn't come cheap like

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

They have done nothing to prepare for Brexit, they are still telling everyone that nothing will change.

This is exactly why many people (including business people) don't believe a no-deal crashout is on the cards.

Tell me how

lawred2 wrote: »

lab equipment doesn't come cheap like

also you think that there are skilled lab technicians, pharmacists, QA professionals etc sitting on the dole waiting for a little office to open up?

Well, no, but is it better to just go out of business?

This would also be a case where future revenue for said lab could be predicted with a reasonable degree of accuracy given the existing business the company had.

Obviously there was a reason to not act but it seems either very naive or defeatist.

Water John

With that type of service you could module fit a container and move it to Wexford in 48 hours. A bit of thinking.

ilovesmybrick

Water John wrote: »

With that type of service you could module fit a container and move it to Wexford in 48 hours. A bit of thinking.

There is absolutely no way you can outfit a "container" to contain a proper pharmaceutical testing laboratory and drop it into Wexford in forty-eight hours. Definitely not one that would comply with the health and safety and hygiene requirements to satisfy pharmacological testing. That's magical thinking.

flatty

Tell me how wrote: »

It's. f*cking. nonsense.

They suggested in the last week or so that there was time for a GE and for them to renegotiate with the EU before the 29th of March.

It's like telling a child that if they go to sleep now they can get up in an hour and watch television. It's embarrassing to be using such vacuous tactics.

Labour in fact want a far softer brexit. I'd imagine that could and would be entertained in very short order.

Tell me how

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

There is absolutely no way you can outfit a "container" to contain a proper pharmaceutical testing laboratory and drop it into Wexford in forty-eight hours. Definitely not one that would comply with the health and safety and hygiene requirements to satisfy pharmacological testing. That's magical thinking.

No. It could not be done that quickly. Various stages of validation and qualification would have to be carried out. I think the poster was referring to getting the equipment over here. It isn't that simple but it is far from excessively complicated.

If we manage to build manufacturing facilities for these drugs, I'm quite sure a suitable lab could be prepared while still conforming to all necessary regulations.

Quick? No.
Cheap? No
Impossible? Definitely not.

serfboard

Leroy42 wrote: »

Non disclosure agreements had to be signed before they could get participation in the discussions.

I really don't think that this can be emphasised enough - Faisal Islam (and maybe others) reported it.

When people are wondering why industry has been so quiet, this is why - they raised their concerns with the government, but were made to sign NDAs, forbidding them from talking about what was discussed.

Talk about trying to shut down discussion.

demfad

Enzokk wrote: »

Thank you for the list, that story on Farage seems like it should be out of a novel than real life. Either he and those he hangs out with are just unlucky when they happened to meet coincidentally with the Russians or the Russian Embassy, or they are knee deep in subversion of democracy at the hands of Russia. I see way too many meetings that would mean a coincidence for them to stick to that claim.

If you look at Farage's actions all over Europe meeting and supporting every kind of right wing group that crawled out from under rocks almost all supported and funded by Putin.

Here are two examples that may be pertinent the first to Ireland the second (mind blowing) implicates UKIP.

1: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/18/nigel-farage-party-staffer-russian-embassy-smear-campaign-kremlin-critic

Farage's European party the EFDD were doing their printing out of the Russian embassy in Brussels. Also, an Aide to Farage/EFDD Kevin Ellul-Bonici was investigated and found guilty of distributing a book "The Red Dahlia" to every MEPs cubby hole in parliament. The book attacked the Lithuanian PM who had previously attacked Putin. Oddly the book had been translated to English unknown to the author! Bonici was filmed with a Russian national and Polish National (born in Moscow) distributing the book. He was let go from the EFDD.
Bonici went to University in the former Soviet Union. His wife Sharon Ellul Bonici works for Marine LePen (Putin lent her Front Nationale €10 million).
Farage campaigned with Sharon Ellul-Bonici against Malta accession to EU in 2004. Note also Sharon campaigned in Ireland against Nice(!!!!)
Irexit Freedom fans will be dissapointed to hear that Ireaxit Freedom supremo Hermann Kelly was EFDD director of communications for the EFDD when they were printing out of the Russian embassy.

2. From 5th September 17.

https://eutoday.net/news/politics/2017/ukip-mep-addresses-pro-eu-demonstrators-alongside-saakashvili-in-kyiv

Former Georgian President Saakashvili arrest attempted in Kiev for taking a $500,000 bribe to work with Yanukovitz supporters (Putin Puppet president who fled to Moscon in 2014 Maidan revolution).
Climbs to his apartment complex 8 story roof, threatens to jump.
Police break in, apprehend him.
They put him in a van.
Van is overwhelmed by crowd espcially hundreds of military looking guys in black rigs (Russian special ops).
He is freed, and mellee moves to parliament buildings in Kiev.

By his side, somewhat astonishingly, was British eurosceptic MEP Jane Collins.

Addressing the crowd she declared, somewhat curiously,

“But what was today? It was your victory, the victory of Mikheil, and the victory of human rights in Ukraine, as well as the defeat of your government in democracy…”

WTAF??

EDIT: If anyone can find a connection between the Maltese Bonicis and Maltese Professor Mifsud you will be in effect adding the following letters to Farage's titles "FUBAR". (Kelly's too)

Zubeneschamali

Tell me how wrote: »

If we manage to build manufacturing facilities for these drugs, I'm quite sure a suitable lab could be prepared while still conforming to all necessary regulations.

Yes. In fact, in Hammer Archer's post upthread, they said: We have a good few contract labs across the EU that carry out this testing for us.

So you are talking about a UK company not just upping sticks and moving to another country, but trying to set up an accredited lab in jig time in competition with established EU labs.

It's a tall order.

And on the other hand, in the worst-case-scenario, that competition from EU labs may be eliminated for work in the UK market and they might be able to do OK exactly where they are.

Spook_ie

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Wasn't that the infamous Bin Laden photo?

Nah Chelsea v Bayern Munich

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/g8/9277799/Dont-mention-the-score-Angela-Merkel-looks-stony-faced-as-David-Cameron-celebrates-Chelsea-victory.html

Water John

Cos looking to avail of such services like to spread the work and not become dependent on a few. Said Co already has contracts, I'm sure their would be goodwill from contracting parties in the circumstances. They already have a good working relationship.
Cos in the UK need wherever possible to make contingency plans both for Crash out Brexit and when it may eventually leave in the form of a Deal.

Professor Moriarty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yes. In fact, in Hammer Archer's post upthread, they said: We have a good few contract labs across the EU that carry out this testing for us.

So you are talking about a UK company not just upping sticks and moving to another country, but trying to set up an accredited lab in jig time in competition with established EU labs.

It's a tall order.

And on the other hand, in the worst-case-scenario, that competition from EU labs may be eliminated for work in the UK market and they might be able to do OK exactly where they are.

Much of what can be extrapolated from that UK lab example is pertinent across British industry. A golden rule in business is never give your customer a reason to think of changing supplier. Brexit is one enormous and inescapable reason why any business supplied or serviced by Britain must think of changing supplier.

McGiver

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Wasn't that the infamous Bin Laden photo?

Nope. 2012 UEFA cup.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:G8_leaders_watching_football.jpg

It's easy to manufacture myths and spread them in this age of internet information and social media. Any nutter or devious person with agenda can create and spread myths over social media very easily. We had actually seen this in action with Trump, Le Pen, Brexit, the migration crisis and all populist/extremist parties in Europe. I wonder what's next on Kremlin's/oligarchs agenda.

EDIT: Not that you do, just speaking generally, that you can take this image and create any myth around it as you want, and many people will turn it to "truth".

serfboard

McGiver wrote: »

After all the Socialists are the second largest group in the EP.

And who is the largest? The EPP, a grouping that also includes Silvio Berlusconi's Forza Italia and the Hungarian Far-Right party Fidesz. In fact:

Wikipedia wrote:

The EPP has been the largest party in the European Parliament since 1999 and in the European Council since 2002. It is also by far the largest party in the current European Commission. The President of the European Council, President of the European Commission and the President of the European Parliament are all from the EPP

McGiver wrote: »

Barosso? Former communist then socialist.

Barosso's political party, the Social Democrats, are acutally a centre-right party, so I don't know where you're getting Socialist from. They are also in the EPP as well, by the way, which is another indication.

Barosso also disgracefully intervened in the Scottish Independence Referendum, but that's probably for another thread.

Enzokk

Rhineshark wrote: »

Huh. What was it that they'd nearly cleared by the austerity program? I thought it was the debt but maybe it was just one part of it.

I believe they were talking about clearing the deficit with austerity. You cannot clear the debt though without clearing your deficit so it is the first step to doing that. It is also an easier target to aim for as well.

listermint

New Fledgling political party in the UK

https://www.renewparty.org.uk/

Footage

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/video/new-anti-brexit-political-party-renew-launches-england-news-footage/1072471042

LeinsterDub

listermint wrote: »

New Fledgling political party in the UK

https://www.renewparty.org.uk/

Footage

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/video/new-anti-brexit-political-party-renew-launches-england-news-footage/1072471042

Why didn't they form 2 years ago? It's most likely too late now

Tell me how

listermint wrote: »

New Fledgling political party in the UK

https://www.renewparty.org.uk/

Footage

https://www.gettyimages.ie/detail/video/new-anti-brexit-political-party-renew-launches-england-news-footage/1072471042

Change has to start somewhere to be fair. Using the calamity of Brexit to showcase the inadequacy of existing parties is as good a place to start as any I suppose.

Seems a pretty balances gender split if not yet a wholly diverse group.

All that being said, chances of survival in a meaningful way in 5 years must be incredibly small.

Infini

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why didn't they form 2 years ago? It's most likely too late now

Takes time to get people together, build a base etc. Realistically to get anywhere they need a decade as they have to take on the old guard parties as well not to mention that FPTP also works againsy them.

Franz Von Peppercorn

The liberal party should be hoovering up those remain votes but it isn’t. I’m not sure the remain voters are going to peel off in any other direction.

flatty

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The liberal party should be hoovering up those remain votes but it isn’t. I’m not sure the remain voters are going to peel off in any other direction.

Depends on individual candidates being credible, and the leader being charismatic.

ancapailldorcha

First Past the Post means it takes ages to build up a support base. Then you need that support base to be sufficiently concentrated in certain areas so that you might actually land a seat or two and build from that. Being in the centre nowadays should be a boon.

The Liberal Democrats are being hampered by three things in my opinion. First is the specter of tuition fees. Second is the unrepresentative voting system that is First Past the Post. Finally, we are living in a society where political debate is becoming ever more polarised and insular. Nobody talks to the other side any more while their side veers off the reservation. Vince Cable is about as dull and dreary a leader as you could get. I hate to sound ageist but surely someone younger and livelier would be better suited to representing a party that is supposedly out for the young (a claim marred and undermined by the aforementioned tuition fees).

This is too little and too late. I have no idea who this woman is and she has nowhere near enough time to mount any sort of resistance. Hopefully, I'm wrong.

Sam Russell

Remember the Social Democrats which was formed by 'the Gang of Four'. It eventually amalgamated with the Liberal Party to form the Lib Dems.

(from Wikipedia). The four left the Labour Party as a result of the January 1981 Wembley conference which committed the party to unilateral nuclear disarmament and withdrawal from the European Economic Community. They also believed that Labour had become too left-wing, and had been infiltrated at constituency party level by Trotskyist factions whose views and behaviour they considered to be at odds with the Parliamentary Labour Party and Labour voters.

Sounds familiar.

It might work, but it has to capture the Conservative non-Tory vote and the New Labour (Blairite) vote. It might get traction, but I doubt it. Its very entry to some constituencies might change the make up of the resulting HOC, but maybe not.

It needs quite a well thought out strategy, which is hard to get right from a zero start.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Brexit is in many ways a perfect storm of bad luck and bad polling.

You need the liberals to join a coalition with the conservatives and ruin their brand.

You need the Tories to originally promise a referendum two elections down the line; one which the leadership doesn’t agree with nor expects to happen as they expect another coalition. The polls are wrong and they win outright.

You need a tw... incompetent leader like Cameron in power with a full majority. Which he didn’t expect but it’s there and so he has to have the referendum. Then he makes no real effort to win the referendum as all of the main parties were in support and the polls are wrong again. He resigns, leaving the hapless (if tenacious) Theresa May in charge.

Labour is meanwhile run by a old school socialist who doesn’t really like the EU. Polling was wrong on him winning the leadership if I recall. Yet his remain supporters don’t defect because the only real defection is to the liberals. See point one.

Advised by incorrect polls again after the referendum the Tory prime minister has an election expecting this time to clean up, and .... loses the majority they didn’t expect in the previous election but did in that one. Worse they depend on the DUP and therefore can’t negotiate the border with Ireland\EU as they might like.

Sam Russell

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Brexit is in many ways a perfect storm of bad luck and bad polling.

You need the liberals to join a coalition with the conservatives and ruin their brand.

You need the Tories to originally promise a referendum two elections down the line; one which the leadership doesn’t agree with nor expects to happen as they expect another coalition. The polls are wrong and they win outright.

You need a tw... incompetent leader like Cameron in power with a full majority. Which he didn’t expect but it’s there and so he has to have the referendum. Then he makes no real effort to win the referendum as all of the main parties were in support and the polls are wrong again. He resigns, leaving the hapless (if tenacious) Theresa May in charge.

Labour is meanwhile run by a old school socialist who doesn’t really like the EU. Polling was wrong on him winning the leadership if I recall. Yet his remain supporters don’t defect because the only real defection is to the liberals. See point one.

Advised by incorrect polls again after the referendum the Tory prime minister has an election expecting this time to clean up, and .... loses the majority they didn’t expect in the previous election but did in that one. Worse they depend on the DUP and therefore can’t negotiate the border with Ireland\EU as they might like.

You missed the point that Cameron went to the EU to get a better deal for the UK but the EU said you already have a better deal than anyone else - and No - you cannot cherry pick the four freedoms the single market depends on.

This allowed the Brexiteers to claim the EU are bullies and not open to democracy and is run by undemocratic, faceless, un-elected bureaucrats. Of course, the UK is run by un-elected faceless Civil Servants, ruled over by Governments that have not enjoyed majority single party governments since 1932.

That was a strategic mistake that cost him the referendum. If he did not go to Brussels cap in hand, he could have claimed the the UK enjoyed the best deal of any EU states. He also tried 'project fear' instead of 'peerless privileged' to win.

It did not work.