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Dublin - BusConnects

marno21

Two weeks after a similar publication for Metrolink, the NTA have published a tender for design of 16 Core Bus Corridors for the BusConnect project:

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=127159&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

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Bray Head

In general I'm supportive of the flat fare principle, with no reductions for short trips.

But let's suppose it's €2.50 for 90 minutes, maybe €1.30 for kids.

A trip in and out of city centre daytime at a weekend for a family of four comes to over €15. For most people (me included) that's well above breakeven point for driving.

For me the price of a taxi to city centre is €12. For an evening out for two it's a toss-up already whether we take the bus or taxi given the door-to-door convenience and speed.

Stephen15

Bray Head wrote: »

In general I'm supportive of the flat fare principle, with no reductions for short trips.

But let's suppose it's €2.50 for 90 minutes, maybe €1.30 for kids.

A trip in and out of city centre daytime at a weekend for a family of four comes to over €15. For most people (me included) that's well above breakeven point for driving.

For me the price of a taxi to city centre is €12. For an evening out for two it's a toss-up already whether we take the bus or taxi given the door-to-door convenience and speed.

Tbh most journeys into the city centre from the suburbs cost the current maximum Leap fare at €2.60. The Leap card child fare is currently €1.05 and 80c during school hours so I'm not sure where you're getting the €1.30 figure from.

Qrt

Bray Head wrote: »

In general I'm supportive of the flat fare principle, with no reductions for short trips.

Hell will freeze over before I pay full fare to get to The Square! (read this comically and not attacking-ly)

CatInABox

I've been monitoring the reaction to the 10 minute dart schedule in the thread on the commuting forum, and it has not been pretty at all. Capacity problem all over the place, trains delayed all the time, and knock on impacts on commuter trains all over the country.

Part of it is possibly driver related, but a fair chunk of the problem seems to be a lack of dart carriages to maintain capacity, resulting in some trains running 4 carriages during rush hour.

Seeing as the 10 minute dart schedule is a pretty big assumption of BusConnects, what impact do you think this will have? I can't see the problems being fixed by this time next year, as new carriages will have to be bought, something that will take years.

LeinsterDub

CatInABox wrote: »

I've been monitoring the reaction to the 10 minute dart schedule in the thread on the commuting forum, and it has not been pretty at all. Capacity problem all over the place, trains delayed all the time, and knock on impacts on commuter trains all over the country.

Part of it is possibly driver related, but a fair chunk of the problem seems to be a lack of dart carriages to maintain capacity, resulting in some trains running 4 carriages during rush hour.

Seeing as the 10 minute dart schedule is a pretty big assumption of BusConnects, what impact do you think this will have? I can't see the problems being fixed by this time next year, as new carriages will have to be bought, something that will take years.

The government have 2 years to buy more trains. Capacity issue is very easily solved especially if they buy the hybrids and fast track the dart expansion

loyatemu

CatInABox wrote: »

I've been monitoring the reaction to the 10 minute dart schedule in the thread on the commuting forum, and it has not been pretty at all. Capacity problem all over the place, trains delayed all the time, and knock on impacts on commuter trains all over the country.

Part of it is possibly driver related, but a fair chunk of the problem seems to be a lack of dart carriages to maintain capacity, resulting in some trains running 4 carriages during rush hour.

Seeing as the 10 minute dart schedule is a pretty big assumption of BusConnects, what impact do you think this will have? I can't see the problems being fixed by this time next year, as new carriages will have to be bought, something that will take years.

The new timetable is showing Irish Rail can't reliably run trains every 10 minutes on a closed system, it's not doing much for the argument that DB will be able to run reliable 4 minute frequency on public roads (even if the priority measures are in place). The whole premise of BusConnects is that services will run at the promised frequencies, without big gaps appearing or bunching as happens now.

hmmm

CatInABox wrote: »

Seeing as the 10 minute dart schedule is a pretty big assumption of BusConnects, what impact do you think this will have? I can't see the problems being fixed by this time next year, as new carriages will have to be bought, something that will take years.

This and LUAS Cross city were the two big public transport initiatives this year. Neither were on the same scale as bus connects, and the NTA have to be lot to do to convince people why they should trust them.

CatInABox

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The government have 2 years to buy more trains. Capacity issue is very easily solved especially if they buy the hybrids and fast track the dart expansion

It's due to go out to tender late 2019 (which will probably be delayed), the tendering process could take years. BusConnects is meant to come in late 2019 (which, in fairness, will probably be delayed also)

LeinsterDub

CatInABox wrote: »

It's due to go out to tender late 2019 (which will probably be delayed), the tendering process could take years. BusConnects is meant to come in late 2019 (which, in fairness, will probably be delayed also)

Hearing 2020 on Twitter now.

CatInABox

Sam Russell wrote: »

Actually, it would be better to say a 20% increase in the number taking the bus instead of the car would result in the buses travelling 10% quicker, and journey times being reduced by 6%.

It might be worth pointing out that the 90 min fare would be significantly cheaper for most commuters. Also, the increased ridership should not threaten the fare box so subsidy is not increased.

(If any of that is true).

The thing is though, politicians don't really care about journey times, or anything transport related to be honest. Going down the "BusConnects reduces cancer" angle means that they may pay more attention to the positive aspects of it.

CatInABox

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Hearing 2020 on Twitter now.

Considering Leo has told the NTA to come back with major modifications, 2020 might be optimistic.

LeinsterDub

hmmm wrote: »

This and LUAS Cross city were the two big public transport initiatives this year. Neither were on the same scale as bus connects, and the NTA have to be lot to do to convince people why they should trust them.

Not sure if this is splitting hairs but the NTA are only doing what they are told. They told DCC that college green should be in place first and that extra trams were needed. Also said the same about dart.

CatInABox wrote: »

It's due to go out to tender late 2019 (which will probably be delayed), the tendering process could take years. BusConnects is meant to come in late 2019 (which, in fairness, will probably be delayed also)

The refurbishment of the 2700 class should be coming online this year, start of next year, which should free up some other trains to come back to the Dublin region and add extra capacity.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

The refurbishment of the 2700 class should be coming online this year, start of next year, which should free up some other trains to come back to the Dublin region and add extra capacity.

Unfortunately that tender has not even been awarded yet, and work has not started and may not even happen at all. If that remains the case, we are unlikely to see additional rolling stock in service until sometime in 2020 at the earliest, and if it is new stock, probably 2021.

But of course the NTA knows best.

Zebra3

CatInABox wrote: »

They should really promote the health benefits of having an increased ridership on buses as well.

For example, using totally made up figures:

A 20% increase in the number of people using buses means X amount of cars taken off the roads, which will lead to Y reduction on the amount of lung cancers caused by pollution.

A decrease in commuting times means that people will have a better work life balance, with more time with their kids

The last point is massive and has been totally missed.

Would leave opposing politicians looking like mugs.

marno21

The NTA have published a PIN for tender of a contract for Environmental Impact Assessment, Transport Impact Assessment and Construction Strategy for the 16 Core Bus Corridors announced earlier this year. Concept design for the 16 corridors is complete. Emerging Preferred Routes have been identified and will be put to non statutory public consultation in Q4 2018

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=136601&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

Qrt

marno21 wrote: »

The NTA have published a PIN for tender of a contract for Environmental Impact Assessment, Transport Impact Assessment and Construction Strategy for the 16 Core Bus Corridors announced earlier this year. Concept design for the 16 corridors is complete. Emerging Preferred Routes have been identified and will be put to non statutory public consultation in Q4 2018

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=136601&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

So it'll be a while yet before we see the detailed proposals are released?

LXFlyer

Qrt wrote: »

So it'll be a while yet before we see the detailed proposals are released?

You won’t see proposals to EIS detail this time around, but we should see what they are proposing in terms of bus gates, traffic restrictions and road widening (and indicative CPO activity), for each corridor.

Whether they actually happen to the scale the NTA would like is another thing, as I suspect they will end up being subjected to many legal challenges where CPOs are involved.

People also need to remember that the infrastructure element is a 10 year project unlike the network redesign, which was being proposed to be delivered without most of the infrastructure works being in place.

Qrt

LXFlyer wrote: »

You won’t see proposals to EIS detail this time around, but we should see what they are proposing in terms of bus gates, traffic restrictions and road widening (and indicative CPO activity), for each corridor.

Whether they actually happen to the scale the NTA would like is another thing, as I suspect they will end up being subjected to many legal challenges where CPOs are involved.

People also need to remember that the infrastructure element is a 10 year project unlike the network redesign, which was being proposed to be delivered without most of the infrastructure works being in place.

I'm trying to think of the most difficult corridor planned, Kimmage most likely?

CatInABox

LXFlyer wrote: »

You won’t see proposals to EIS detail this time around, but we should see what they are proposing in terms of bus gates, traffic restrictions and road widening (and indicative CPO activity), for each corridor.

Whether they actually happen to the scale the NTA would like is another thing, as I suspect they will end up being subjected to many legal challenges where CPOs are involved.

People also need to remember that the infrastructure element is a 10 year project unlike the network redesign, which was being proposed to be delivered without most of the infrastructure works being in place.

The CPO process is pretty legally sound at this stage, so long as the government can demonstrate a need to do it, then it'll go through, and any legal challenge to it will fail pretty quickly.

Legal challenges attacking the process around it may bear more fruit though, such as going after the EIS on it. The same legal tactics were used against the Athenry data centre, and the new runway at Dublin Airport.

cgcsb

Once an airtight EIS is produced there is little legal recourse against a CPO. This is done all over the country to build motorways, and is noting new.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Once an airtight EIS is produced there is little legal recourse against a CPO. This is done all over the country to build motorways, and is noting new.

I certainly don’t share your optimism that this process will happen as smoothly as you seem think.

It’s one thing for the NTA to come up with them, it’s another thing for the various councils to approve them (as they will have to), and there has been anything but smooth progress in that regard.

That’s before you even look at individual legal objections to the plans.

It will be interesting to see if the second draft of the network redesign reflects the reality that, until the infrastructure improvements are in place, connections on radial routes will be virtually impossible to guarantee as journey times will be as variable from one day to the next as they are today. This is particularly relevant where connecting services are planned to be every 30 mins or greater.

Most of your posts on the network design keep referring to the infrastructure improvements as if they’re guaranteed to be in place and simultaneously with the network redesign rollout, which ignores the fact that the infrastructure plan has a 10 year rollout period and most of it is highly unlikely be in place ahead of the network redesign. This is (for me) a critical shortcoming and certainly militates against removing existing direct connections to the city.

The infrastructure element is absolutely critical to delivering an effective bus network, as is to my mind the actual enforcement of the bus priority measures, something that simply isn’t present anywhere right now.

LXFlyer

Qrt wrote: »

I'm trying to think of the most difficult corridor planned, Kimmage most likely?

Kimmage, Templeogue and Rathfarnham-Terenure-Rathmines, Old Cabra Road / Manor Street will probably prove the most difficult as they have significant pinch points and potential road closures.

cgcsb

Many significant pinch points can be removed by next year though. For example on the blanch corridor, a one way Stoneybatter, a car free Old Cabra Rd and Prussia St and a car free North quays can be accomplished with hardly any construction work or CPOs, these changes alone can deliver easily 20 minutes journey time improvement on that corridor while providing a greater degree of reliability.

Putting up flexible pollards around all QBCs at junctions, another small construction job = huge time savings.

One way Rathmines = huge time savings.

This won't provide 100% reliability but it'll be a vast improvement on the current system in the short term.

Qrt

LXFlyer wrote: »

It’s one thing for the NTA to come up with them, it’s another thing for the various councils to approve them (as they will have to), and there has been anything but smooth progress in that regard.

Are they not going straight to An Bord Pleanála? NTA seem to think so...

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Many significant pinch points can be removed by next year though. For example on the blanch corridor, a one way Stoneybatter, a car free Old Cabra Rd and Prussia St and a car free North quays can be accomplished with hardly any construction work or CPOs, these changes alone can deliver easily 20 minutes journey time improvement on that corridor while providing a greater degree of reliability.

Putting up flexible pollards around all QBCs at junctions, another small construction job = huge time savings.

One way Rathmines = huge time savings.

This won't provide 100% reliability but it'll be a vast improvement on the current system in the short term.

You’re still making a massive assumption that those sorts of changes will be in place. Closing roads to traffic in the city centre has proved massively difficult to push through and I think it’s going to be far more difficult to push through on arterial routes outside of the city centre.

Where is there any evidence that the examples that you posted will be place next year?

There isn’t and I think you need to stand back a bit from this.

Until I see hard proposals and frankly physical work actually taking place I certainly would not be anywhere near as confident about them.

LXFlyer

Qrt wrote: »

Are they not going straight to An Bord Plean? NTA seem to think so...

That will depend upon the legal basis that they are introduced under.

But are we saying that local government will be bypassed? I’m not sure about that.

cgcsb

LXFlyer wrote: »

Where is there any evidence that the examples that you posted will be place next year?

There isn’t and I think you need to stand back a bit from this.

Lol. It's a message board pal, not the UN. Chill out.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Lol. It's a message board pal, not the UN. Chill out.

I’m perfectly chilled.

I just think you’re making an awful lot of assumptions that have no basis in reality.

There is absolutely no evidence that any of the things you listed above are going to happen in that short a timeframe.

This matters as a network redesign predicated on interchanges needs the infrastructure in place first - and that’s not what’s happening here.

I make no apologies for being passionate about this - it’s a subject I have a particular interest in and I think that the rollout of the infrastructure is going to be significantly more difficult than you seem to think.

LXFlyer wrote: »

There is absolutely no evidence that any of the things you listed above are going to happen in that short a timeframe.

Well some of those things listed have already quietly happened at other locations over the past few years. For instance the recent placement of bollards along the bus lane at Whitehall.

The widening at the Cat & Cage in Drumcondra was a major project and it has gone extremely well and has been a great improvement.