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Mens Rights Thread

Woodward

Ok I'm pretty new here but I havent been able to find a thread on this topic

Are any of you here involved in the Mens Rights or Masculinist Movements? Is there any organised male orientated rights associations in Ireland except for Fathers Rights?

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One eyed Jack

silverharp wrote: »

from my kids school earlier in the week, an apt reminder never to interact with kids while being male, even if they might need your help

update

Ahh tbh silverharp I can understand the reaction under the circumstances as described. I wouldn’t take it as an apt reminder of anything to do with me personally. It’s far worse if men actually were to start thinking that they couldn’t interact with children based upon paranoia about other people being paranoid. Other people being paranoid is their problem, you being paranoid (not you personally, but men in general), that’s your problem.

Reviews and Books Galore

Negative, it's a western society thing, it's the same in other countries, such as Italy - if you're a man and are within 5 meters of a child, you're automatically a paedophile.

not allowing me to qoute for some reason, but I disagree with the above. It isn't a thing in France, Germany, Poland and Spain. The spanish fathers are quite doting, and the Polish fathers are very outwardly caring of their children.

Also, I'm not entirely sure I agree with you about Italy. Italian fathers also are very playful with their children in public.

H3llR4iser

Reviews and Books Galore wrote: »

Negative, it's a western society thing, it's the same in other countries, such as Italy - if you're a man and are within 5 meters of a child, you're automatically a paedophile.

not allowing me to qoute for some reason, but I disagree with the above. It isn't a thing in France, Germany, Poland and Spain. The spanish fathers are quite doting, and the Polish fathers are very outwardly caring of their children.

Also, I'm not entirely sure I agree with you about Italy. Italian fathers also are very playful with their children in public.

When did this become about "fathers"? You see dads with their children in parks and public places all the time everywhere. People are extremely stupid, but not at the level of not recognizing a father-child relationship, at least not yet.

The episode above - that would have caused hysteria and calls to the police anywhere in the west. It's not an "Irish" nor an "American" issue.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Ahh tbh silverharp I can understand the reaction under the circumstances as described. I wouldn’t take it as an apt reminder of anything to do with me personally. It’s far worse if men actually were to start thinking that they couldn’t interact with children based upon paranoia about other people being paranoid. Other people being paranoid is their problem, you being paranoid (not you personally, but men in general), that’s your problem.

Yet, you have to be careful as the average idiot on the street can and will make assumptions. The gentleman from the story above did nothing wrong and found himself being asked questions...this wouldn't have happened if he didn't have a penis, which is the issue

silverharp

H3llR4iser wrote: »

The episode above - that would have caused hysteria and calls to the police anywhere in the west. It's not an "Irish" nor an "American" issue.

Yet, you have to be careful as the average idiot on the street can and will make assumptions. The gentleman from the story above did nothing wrong and found himself being asked questions...this wouldn't have happened if he didn't have a penis, which is the issue

I'd be inclined to draw a distinction between the Anglo world against say continental Europe, with the US leading the way in paranoia and hysteria

One eyed Jack

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Yet, you have to be careful as the average idiot on the street can and will make assumptions. The gentleman from the story above did nothing wrong and found himself being asked questions...this wouldn't have happened if he didn't have a penis, which is the issue

You’re right, I’m not even going to argue that one with you - it would have been incredibly unlikely to happen in the first place, let alone escalate as it did if it were a woman in that scenario instead of a man. So there absolutely is the issue of sexism.

Having said that, I don’t particularly care one way or the other whether or not it was sexist, and so that wouldn’t be an issue for me. The issue for me is one of child protection, and to that end if I had been in that situation myself where I observed a man who to my mind was behaving suspiciously, I wouldn’t have reacted the same way as the average idiot who works in childcare who are generally hyper-vigilant and super-paranoid about child safety concerns which lead them to make those kinds of assumptions.

I’m not suggesting at all that innocent men need to be more careful, and if silverharp hadn’t included the context I would have wondered was there more to it anyway, what I’m saying is that anyone, whether they be a man or a woman, needs to be aware of their surroundings and the situations in which they find themselves which can be misinterpreted, I don’t for one minute agree with the whole “children should be taught not to talk to strangers” nonsense, because that can leave children unaware of how to deal with those kinds of situations themselves, when other adults may not be around to protect them.

Anyone behaving suspiciously is going to be asked questions, it’s not a judgement on their character, and they maintain the presumption of innocence of course, and I hope the pendulum doesn’t swing the other way to the point where if someone is behaving suspiciously, they are not to be approached and questioned as to what business they have standing outside a school talking to children.

Reviews and Books Galore

The episode above - that would have caused hysteria and calls to the police anywhere in the west. It's not an "Irish" nor an "American" issue.

I must admit, I still disagree with what you are saying here. Nobody would bat an eyelid in Poland, Germany and probably France if an adult male was talking to a child on the street. It would be seen the same as a woman talking to a child.

It is definetly an anglosaxon issue and I imagine would be slightly bizarre to most other countries.

And, unfortunately, I'm not sure if people are able to tell difference between father and child in the way that you mentioned above.

H3llR4iser

And here we go, an academic career that will likely be flushed down the toilette because Prof. Alessandro Strumia's study ended up producing data that doesn't fit in the mainstream narrative - guilty by Twitter, "offensive" claims and CERN distancing themselves following suit:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/physics-men-women-invented-alessandro-strumia-physicist-cern-workshop-talk-a8562801.html

Read the article, then have a look at his slides deck, which you can find here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c_NyUhOZ8erdqU2AGZJZtNfFeA91Kefj/view

"Physics was invented and built by men" is not even remotely the central point of his presentation, they found the sentence that was the most likely to cause outrage and slammed it on page 1; In all fairness, it's an extremely poorly worded bit that he should have left out - it's not helped by the fact his command of the English language ain't great (more than a few statements betray a thought process that started in Italian).

Most of his presentation goes against the notion of "gender quotas" and basically the concept that institutions MUST hire women, even in the case there are men who happen to be more qualified and suitable for the job.

However, strangely this didn't go down well at all - the biggest complaint is that he was telling women their careers were due to "tokenism", which you know, it's so much worse than telling men how anything they achieve is due to "male privilege"

TL;DR - if you conduct a study about gender discrimination in a sector and data end up showing there is none or, worse still, it goes the opposite direction than what is deemed "acceptable", don't tell anyone - burn your papers and pretend amnesia.

Pero_Bueno

H3llR4iser wrote: »

And here we go, an academic career that will likely be flushed down the toilette because Prof. Alessandro Strumia's study ended up producing data that doesn't fit in the mainstream narrative - guilty by Twitter, "offensive" claims and CERN distancing themselves following suit:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/physics-men-women-invented-alessandro-strumia-physicist-cern-workshop-talk-a8562801.html

Read the article, then have a look at his slides deck, which you can find here:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c_NyUhOZ8erdqU2AGZJZtNfFeA91Kefj/view

"Physics was invented and built by men" is not even remotely the central point of his presentation, they found the sentence that was the most likely to cause outrage and slammed it on page 1; In all fairness, it's an extremely poorly worded bit that he should have left out - it's not helped by the fact his command of the English language ain't great (more than a few statements betray a thought process that started in Italian).

Most of his presentation goes against the notion of "gender quotas" and basically the concept that institutions MUST hire women, even in the case there are men who happen to be more qualified and suitable for the job.

However, strangely this didn't go down well at all - the biggest complaint is that he was telling women their careers were due to "tokenism", which you know, it's so much worse than telling men how anything they achieve is due to "male privilege"

TL;DR - if you conduct a study about gender discrimination in a sector and data end up showing there is none or, worse still, it goes the opposite direction than what is deemed "acceptable", don't tell anyone - burn your papers and pretend amnesia.

But this is so frightening, it's like Orwells 1984, when facts were denied and erased from existence - is this where we are heading ?

iptba

H3llR4iser wrote: »

TL;DR - if you conduct a study about gender discrimination in a sector and data end up showing there is none or, worse still, it goes the opposite direction than what is deemed "acceptable", don't tell anyone - burn your papers and pretend amnesia.

I imagine this could be a big problem in the field.

This is sometimes called the "file drawer problem" where there is a bias in what gets published. This could also apply to more informal surveys and the like.

A simple example might be ads you see, which say "8 out of 10 x prefer this product". But if this was only the results of one survey and they did lots of surveys and another survey, for example, found that only 20% preferred this product, it is very problematic to only refer to the 80% survey.

In medical clinical trials, there is a big move towards prospectively registered trials where people say in advance what they will measure and what will be primary outcome measures, to cut down on publication bias.

H3llR4iser

iptba wrote: »

I imagine this could be a big problem in the field.

This is sometimes called the "file drawer problem" where there is a bias in what gets published. This could also apply to more informal surveys and the like.

A simple example might be ads you see, which say "8 out of 10 x prefer this product". But if this was only the results of one survey and they did lots of surveys and another survey, for example, found that only 20% preferred this product, it is very problematic to only refer to the 80% survey.

In medical clinical trials, there is a big move towards prospectively registered trials where people say in advance what they will measure and what will be primary outcome measures, to cut down on publication bias.

Precisely, that works both ways - and when it's done the "wrong" way, people scream bloody murder.

Looking at the slides and leaving along the "sexism!" commentary, in all honesty I can see how some of his points could be taken the wrong way, especially by somebody looking for "discrimination" in every nook and cranny.

As a fellow Italian native, I can easily say that Professor's Strumia's main issue lays in his command of the English language being a bit subpar for somebody working in an international environment.

Oversimplifying, the Italian language uses specific sentence structures that make statements sound like "commands" when taken to in other cultures and/or languages; Therefore his statement about "physics being invented by men", while being meant to demonstrate there is no bias (anybody who's good enough can win a Nobel, essentially, regardless of what set of genitalia they were born with), was poorly translated to sound like something very different.

In the end, his entire grief is around quotas and tokenism - something I've seen first hand in some companies hiring policies - when 90% of the CVs you get for 2 positions as Developers are sent by men, but you must hire at least one woman...even if the two best candidates both happened to be guys.
Again, the situation should be that the best 2 candidates are hired - regardless of them being women, men, smurfs or a six-legged dog...

Hector Savage

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Precisely, that works both ways - and when it's done the "wrong" way, people scream bloody murder.

Looking at the slides and leaving along the "sexism!" commentary, in all honesty I can see how some of his points could be taken the wrong way, especially by somebody looking for "discrimination" in every nook and cranny.

As a fellow Italian native, I can easily say that Professor's Strumia's main issue lays in his command of the English language being a bit subpar for somebody working in an international environment.

Oversimplifying, the Italian language uses specific sentence structures that make statements sound like "commands" when taken to in other cultures and/or languages; Therefore his statement about "physics being invented by men", while being meant to demonstrate there is no bias (anybody who's good enough can win a Nobel, essentially, regardless of what set of genitalia they were born with), was poorly translated to sound like something very different.

In the end, his entire grief is around quotas and tokenism - something I've seen first hand in some companies hiring policies - when 90% of the CVs you get for 2 positions as Developers are sent by men, but you must hire at least one woman...even if the two best candidates both happened to be guys.
Again, the situation should be that the best 2 candidates are hired - regardless of them being women, men, smurfs or a six-legged dog...

Spot on.

wexie

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Therefore his statement about "physics being invented by men", while being meant to demonstrate there is no bias (anybody who's good enough can win a Nobel, essentially, regardless of what set of genitalia they were born with), was poorly translated to sound like something very different.

Funnily enough...from today :

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45655151

The 2018 Nobel Prize in Physics has been awarded to a woman for the first time in 55 years.

Donna Strickland, from Canada, is only the third woman winner of the award, along with Marie Curie, who won in 1903, and Maria Goeppert-Mayer, who was awarded the prize in 1963.

LLMMLL

Well if anyone can make sense of those slides they deserve a novel prize themselves.

I did have to laugh when part of his evidence was himself losing out on a promotion. No axe to grind there.

backspin.

wexie wrote: »

Funnily enough...from today :

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-45655151

I'm becoming so skeptical I wonder did she really deserve the Nobel prize or was it more 21st century tokenism. I hope she genuinely earned it.

Calhoun

Did Obama really deserve the Nobel peace prize ? If anything the Nobel prize have shown more so than anything they are not immune to political interference.

Also in this case she was part of a team so it looks like reporting bias.

iptba

Here's the latest batch of gender-related hashtags I have noticed trending for anyone interested (I know some are not)
(Aside: I'm not on Twitter 24/7 of course and don't look back at lists for when I wasn't on)

Maybe nothing particularly egregious in this batch

#womankind2018
WomanKind
@womankind2018
The WomanKind fashion show returns in 2018 on September 14th in the Intercontinental Hotel, Dublin. Contact Elaine @plutoevents on 01 260 4001 #womankind2018

https://twitter.com/plutoevents/status/1040495364892065792

#womensinspire

#Compass2018
Google women in leadership event

#WhenSheSaysImFine

#CIFConference
Not a gender-related trend, but I see that gender came up
https://twitter.com/philipleelaw/status/1047069617833857024
https://twitter.com/CIF_Ireland/status/1047135047944478721
https://twitter.com/MJCourtney18/status/1047130943633412101

backspin.

Calhoun wrote: »

Did Obama really deserve the Nobel peace prize ? If anything the Nobel prize have shown more so than anything they are not immune to political interference..

Definitely not, but the sciences should be above politics.

H3llR4iser

backspin. wrote: »

I'm becoming so skeptical I wonder did she really deserve the Nobel prize or was it more 21st century tokenism. I hope she genuinely earned it.

Calhoun wrote: »

Did Obama really deserve the Nobel peace prize ? If anything the Nobel prize have shown more so than anything they are not immune to political interference.

Also in this case she was part of a team so it looks like reporting bias.

backspin. wrote: »

Definitely not, but the sciences should be above politics.

That is the entirety of the problem and something that, surprisingly, "feminists" don't seem to get.

If you show me the article about today's Nobel prize, the message should be "Brilliant Physicist awarded Nobel prize!" - and to be honest it's the way I see it. Not for a split second I thought "surely this is a setup!", there's no need for that. Then I discovered she's part of a team of three, the names of the other two not even mentioned in many articles if not directly by her in interviews, and I have to ask "why?".

I still don't doubt Mrs. Strickland's merits and contribution to the team, not even remotely - what is questionable, is the media bias and why they deemed the contributions of Mr. Ashkin and Mr. Mourou less worthy of publicity. But surely the answer will be "well, for years and years..."

Defunkd

Oh, the fun is only just beginning...the gender pay-gap advocates are going to lose their collective mind when they hear the woman is 'only' getting 25% of the prize money. The main winner, Ashkin, gets 50%.

iptba

backspin. wrote: »

I'm becoming so skeptical I wonder did she really deserve the Nobel prize or was it more 21st century tokenism. I hope she genuinely earned it.

The head of the academy, Goran Hansson, acknowledged that it was doing more to ensure women were not overlooked for Nobel prizes. “It’s a small percentage for sure,” Hansson said on the proportion of women who have won the physics prize. “That’s why we are taking measures to encourage more nominations because we don’t want to miss anyone.”

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/oct/02/arthur-ashkin-gerard-mourou-and-donna-strickland-win-nobel-physics-prize

It makes you wonder.

Pero_Bueno

iptba wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/oct/02/arthur-ashkin-gerard-mourou-and-donna-strickland-win-nobel-physics-prize

It makes you wonder.

Fair play to the Guardian for reporting the team in the title, BBC just has the woman and nothing regarding the men.

- in the headline that is, and that's all 90% of people bother reading.

Manic Moran

New law signed in California this week mandating that women make up a specified percentage of members of a board of any publicly traded company in California. I’m sure many women will be pleased at being the token female, and many men will be thrilled that they were affirmative-auctioned out of the job.

Mattis also observing this week that integration of women into combat arms is being reviewed again. The main reason it was put into place in the first place is that generally speaking, only combat officers rise to the very top of the military structure, which meant that there was basically bugger-all chance of senior female military personnel.

backspin.

Manic Moran wrote: »

New law signed in California this week mandating that women make up a specified percentage of members of a board of any publicly traded company in California. I’m sure many women will be pleased at being the token female, and many men will be thrilled that they were affirmative-auctioned out of the job.l.

What about all female boards are they ok?

Keyzer

Pero_Bueno wrote: »

But this is so frightening, it's like Orwells 1984, when facts were denied and erased from existence - is this where we are heading ?

We're already there...

Keyzer

iptba wrote: »

Just heard the phrase again*: “happy wife, happy life”. This seems to contrast with what might be acceptable to tell women: such an attitude would be criticised and seen as something from the past.

*Admittedly the context here was a sitcom

I absolutely despise this saying. Despise it with every fiber of my being.

It's so disrespectful to men.

Absolute bjollox (that's dutch for bollox by the way).

iptba

This turned up in my twitter feed today
https://twitter.com/drduncanbell/status/1047072791806337024?s=11

The tweets with important further information, including the first one here which is directly below the initial tweet, got many fewer likes:
https://twitter.com/EmmMacfarlane/status/1047127373341048833
https://twitter.com/eric_weinberger/status/1047118089832337408

Pawwed Rig

Calhoun wrote: »

Did Obama really deserve the Nobel peace prize ? .

No is the answer to that question. Trump has actually done more for world peace than Obama and I wouldn't give Trump a prize for anything.
Al Gore did not deserve it either.

a topic for another thread maybe

Calhoun

iptba wrote: »

This turned up in my twitter feed today
https://twitter.com/drduncanbell/status/1047072791806337024?s=11

The tweets with important further information, including the first one here which is directly below the initial tweet, got many fewer likes:
https://twitter.com/EmmMacfarlane/status/1047127373341048833
https://twitter.com/eric_weinberger/status/1047118089832337408

Such brave allies on the right side of history.

iptba

Probably not the most outrageous of suggestions, but I haven't seen any similar section on men
https://twitter.com/labourwomen/status/1047833721376788480
https://twitter.com/labour/status/1047837719936860160

Calhoun

It's fine as labour are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

I'd say the only way they can get some votes back is doubling down on the social justice narrative.