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Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

Ozymandius2011

This is for people who have already voted in the referendum. How did you vote? I voted yes.

Mod: This thread is little more than a survey about how you voted. Please don't the ins and outs of abortion.

Mod: This is not a reiteration of the previous 8th threads. If you were threadbanned from those, you are not threadbanned here.

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pleasant Co.

paw patrol wrote: »

the state is broke or acts like it.
Plenty of hospitals in heap and operations cancelled etc....obligatory mention of the homeless...

but the state find the pennies and cough up for young Mary's mistake during rag week....

priorities?

Surely if that's your way of thinking, you've already realised that young Mary's mistake would have state pennies allocated to it through child benefit regardless. There's literally no monetary issue for you to get worked up about in this musing of yours.

paw patrol

pleasant Co. wrote: »

Surely if that's your way of thinking, you've already realised that young Mary's mistake would have state pennies allocated to it through child benefit regardless. There's literally no monetary issue for you to get worked up about in this musing of yours.

perhaps young mary (and of course her young buck too) could pay for her/their own abortion (if that is her desire to have one) and that would save the day for all ...bar the baby, of course, but I feel that battle has been lost.

And keep state funds for those in need. We could call it something quaint like personal responsibility.

Fighting Tao

paw patrol wrote: »

the state is broke or acts like it.
Plenty of hospitals in heap and operations cancelled etc....obligatory mention of the homeless...

but the state find the pennies and cough up for young Mary's mistake during rag week....

priorities?

I don't think you thought your post through.

lazygal

paw patrol wrote: »

the state is broke or acts like it.
Plenty of hospitals in heap and operations cancelled etc....obligatory mention of the homeless...

but the state find the pennies and cough up for young Mary's mistake during rag week....

priorities?

I've cost the state far more by staying pregnant three times than by having early abortions. I had to have c sections and due to complications extra maternity care appointments.

pleasant Co.

paw patrol wrote: »

perhaps young mary (and of course her young buck too) could pay for her/their own abortion (if that is her desire to have one) and that would save the day for all ...bar the baby, of course, but I feel that battle has been lost.

And keep state funds for those in need. We could call it something quaint like personal responsibility.

Perhaps this hypothetical scenario you've dreamt up could do whatever you imagine, but kindly do not move the goal posts of the discussion I'm having with you.

Your issue was with government funding, if you wish to rebuke my response, above, then by all means go for it.

Billy86

Sofiztikated wrote: »

You'll find I didn't reply with anything, with or without sarcasm, as this is my first post on this topic since.

I was just pointing out that Harris had already said about the State helping possibly with IVF treatments, the poster I replied to asked why State didn't.

Not you - the other poster, Annabella1.

Sofiztikated

Billy86 wrote: »

Not you - the other poster, Annabella1.

My apologies.

I'm a bit testy today, and took it the wrong way.

Billy86

paw patrol wrote: »

perhaps young mary (and of course her young buck too) could pay for her/their own abortion (if that is her desire to have one) and that would save the day for all ...bar the baby, of course, but I feel that battle has been lost.

And keep state funds for those in need. We could call it something quaint like personal responsibility.

Actually, there's a large saving to the taxpayer assuming the procedure doesn't cost an exorbitant amount (which at least according to Marie Stopes it doesn't, €470 - €1,555 in the UK) considering how many unwanted pregnancies - usually from those who can't afford to get to the UK and pay their own, or people with addiction or strong mental health issues - wind up in foster care.

At the moment we are currently spending about €120mn per year (so enough to cover in the neighbourhood of one million abortions; each child can cost anywhere from €18-60k to place) and that's before getting to the likes of respite carers, social services, those needing therapy which racks up a big cost quickly, further medical needs, and so on and so on. Relieving some of this financial burden will if anything, see us with more money to give to those in need than if we were to not allow it.

The economic argument against allowing abortion wasn't worth making during the referendum, and it's not worth making now.

Sofiztikated

Billy86 wrote: »

The economic argument against allowing abortion wasn't worth making during the referendum, and it's not worth making now.

The ones that make that argument think they are 2 separate groups, with no overlap. That there's going to be hapes of young want having babies to milk the system, and others having hapes of abortions to milk the system.

Guy:Incognito

paw patrol wrote: »

perhaps young mary (and of course her young buck too) could pay for her/their own abortion (if that is her desire to have one) and that would save the day for all ...bar the baby, of course, but I feel that battle has been lost.

And keep state funds for those in need. We could call it something quaint like personal responsibility.

Personal responsibility? Strange that a certain poster is liking your post but over on another thread they're also liking all the posts of someone going against everyone advocating personal responsibility...........

On a completely unrelated and off topic note I was just musing on the way home while looking out the car window how some people just like to be a cnut or just act like one. Lots of them on the road there was.

spookwoman

paw patrol wrote: »

the state is broke or acts like it.
Plenty of hospitals in heap and operations cancelled etc....obligatory mention of the homeless...

but the state find the pennies and cough up for young Mary's mistake during rag week....

priorities?

Most abortion are just taking a pill
Misoprostol is about 3 euro per tablet, now look at how much it will cost if "mary" keeps the baby, there is the medical costs, child allowance, possible other fees if mary is living in poverty. There's education dental care, etc. What if Mary decides to give it up, it will still cost more.

Bannasidhe

Annabella1 wrote: »

I see minister Harris is proposing free access to termination for the whole female population
I find it ironic that couples unable to conceive needing ivf face hugh bills and zero state support !

I used to find it ironic back in the 80s how the boats to England carried women and girls who had crises pregnancies while living in a country that banned contraception and abortion and women who were pregnant and afraid that their wanted children would be taken off them while they themselves would be incarcerated in a 'home' and forced to work for no pay.

Funny old world isn't it.

Yourself and Minister Harris need not worry about me requiring a free termination. Menopause has put me on the zero cost list - along with a lot of the rest of the female population.

Neyite

Annabella1 wrote: »

A vague maybe promise for 2019
Why isn’t the state equally supportive for those who want a pregnancy

They are.

I had umpteen hospital appointments when trying to get pregnant - all on the public system and free. I had 2 HSG X-rays, countless scans, a referral to an endocrine consultant, and prescriptions of fertility drugs given to me -capped at the €144 per month as the cost of them run into thousands and that extra was picked up by the state.

Many infertility issues are actually gynaecological issues so are covered under the public system. There is a point where a couple need to go to a private clinic to continue their conception journey, but the public system can do a lot of the diagnostics before they need to pay.

gctest50

paw patrol wrote: »

the state is broke or acts like it.
Plenty of hospitals in heap and operations cancelled etc....obligatory mention of the homeless...

but the state find the pennies and cough up for young Mary's mistake during rag week....

priorities?

paw patrol wrote: »

Plenty of hospitals in heap and

That's because this sort of thing goes on in all shapes and forms :

Using a machine past it's end of life - it'll end up costing multiples of the replacement cost

"The echocardiography unit, as you know, has an end of life certificate from March 2016.

In the latest email, Dr Thomas cites one case of discrepancy where he says the machine in question showed the presence of aortic stenosis (valve disease problem) but missed it in a repeat study. A clarification on a new machine confirmed aortic stenosis.

In a series of older emails from May 30, 2016, to May 2, 2017, the consultant cardiologist asked for replacement machine saying that the continued use of the machine was "morally unethical".

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/hse-say-no-reason-to-recall-patients-despite-consultants-concerns-over-obsolete-ecg-machine-871862.html

The anti-choice scum just have the hump because shocked they failed to keep the place in the dark ages

Loafing Oaf

http://www.thejournal.ie/peter-fitzpatrick-resigns-4263614-Oct2018/

Fine Gael TD Peter Fitzpatrick resigns from the party over 'the old abortion', as Declan Lynch calls it. Presumably he would otherwise have defied the whip over the abortion legislation and been expelled from the party.

Don't see too many more in FG or FF following his lead...

amcalester

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/peter-fitzpatrick-resigns-4263614-Oct2018/

Fine Gael TD Peter Fitzpatrick resigns from the party over 'the old abortion', as Declan Lynch calls it. Presumably he would otherwise have defied the whip over the abortion legislation and been expelled from the party.

Don't see too many more in FG or FF following his lead...

That was more about getting re-elected than anything else. The selection convention took place in the last few weeks and even though he said he wasn't interested in running again, he said the same before GE16 but changed his mind.

I don't think many in the party were too happy about that.

ELM327

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/peter-fitzpatrick-resigns-4263614-Oct2018/

Fine Gael TD Peter Fitzpatrick resigns from the party over 'the old abortion', as Declan Lynch calls it. Presumably he would otherwise have defied the whip over the abortion legislation and been expelled from the party.

Don't see too many more in FG or FF following his lead...

Interestingly that puts the government + Independent Alliance at 55 votes, with 57 needed to outvote the rest in a FF abstention.

That could make the budget, not to mention the abortion bill very difficult to pass.Can't see FF as a party supporting it. Some of the independents like halligan may vote against. What happens then, in a ridiculous situation when the government of the day can not enact legislation to reflect the will of the people as polled? GE?

Loafing Oaf

ELM327 wrote: »

Interestingly that puts the government + Independent Alliance at 55 votes, with 57 needed to outvote the rest in a FF abstention.

That could make the budget, not to mention the abortion bill very difficult to pass.

No risk to the abortion bill;the vast majority of TDs are committed to supporting it.

ELM327

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

No risk to the abortion bill;the vast majority of TDs are committed to supporting it.

Playing devil's advocate - In the event of a likely FF abstention (per confidence + supply agreement), do they have 57 confirmed supporters though?

Loafing Oaf

ELM327 wrote: »

Playing devil's advocate - In the event of a likely FF abstention (per confidence + supply agreement), do they have 57 confirmed supporters though?

Well FF have a free vote and AFAIK most of those who have declared their intentions have said they will vote yes. But even if you leave them aside, nearly every other TD in the Dail, bar a handful of Healy Rea types, is committed to supporting the legislation.

Hotblack Desiato

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Don't see too many more in FG or FF following his lead...

FF have a free vote. Don't see anyone else in FG lining up to "do a Renua".

amcalester

ELM327 wrote: »

Playing devil's advocate - In the event of a likely FF abstention (per confidence + supply agreement), do they have 57 confirmed supporters though?

Confidence and Supply is in relation to Finance Bills and votes of No confidence and perhaps some other specifically mentioned bills, it's not the default position that FF will abstain on all votes.

Loafing Oaf

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

FF have a free vote.

I know, but I don't think there will be too many of them actually voting against the legislation, when push comes to shove, although there could be a fair few abstentions.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/many-anti-repeal-tds-now-set-to-back-abortion-legislation-1.3510570

Fianna Fáil TDs James Browne, John Brassil, John McGuinness, Seán Fleming, Willie O’Dea, Charlie McConalogue, Eamon Scanlon, Darragh O’Brien, Declan Breathnach, Marc MacSharry and Jackie Cahill all indicated they would now support the legislation.

Loafing Oaf

So the abortion bill has been 'introduced' in the Dail.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/dail-set-to-debate-abortion-legislation-proposals-37384973.html

Anyone know if the whole thing will be done and dusted today?

Hotblack Desiato

No chance.

volchitsa

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I know, but I don't think there will be too many of them actually voting against the legislation, when push comes to shove, although there could be a fair few abstentions.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/many-anti-repeal-tds-now-set-to-back-abortion-legislation-1.3510570

Apols if I've just missed it, but has anyone mentioned Harris' weasely behaviour yet?

After having attended the March for Choice last week he has now introduced a whole bunch of obstacles and restrictions in his bill :

He has for example tightened up the right to abortion from 'harm to the woman' to 'serious harm to the woman', extended criminalization, actually widened 'conscientious objection' to potentially include institutions, omitted legislation for safe zones around hospitals and surgeries.

Harris said he would legislate based on the recommendations from the Citizens' Assembly - but the actual legislation he's proposing is far more restrictive than both the Citizens Assembly report and the Oireachtas report.

This is beginning to remind me of the NMH and St Vincent's debacle. You can't take your eyes off these fkers for an instant. :mad:

Loafing Oaf

volchitsa wrote: »

omitted legislation for safe zones around hospitals and surgeries.

I think this is intended to be separate legislation.

Also, in fairness to the minister, he said this legislation would be based on the draft legislation which was published before the referendum. I know the 'serious harm' bit, for instance, was in that. I don't think he can reasonably be criticised unless he is making significant changes from those proposals.

volchitsa

Assuming that separate legislation ever actually happens, that still leaves a lot of extra obstacles and restrictions that the CA and the Dáil committee did not advocate.

What the hell is Harris playing at? Just put forward the bill as it was proposed before the referendum!

bloodless_coup

Mattie McGrath, the only man of integrity in the Dail.

Wrongway1985

doylefe wrote: »

Mattie McGrath, the only man of integrity in the Dail.

Sure

:D:D