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Go-Ahead Dublin City Routes - Updates and Discussion

Stephen15

So since the last thread on this got closed and dosen't appear to be reopening any time soon. Heres a new one for you.

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Stephen15

xper wrote: »

Yeah, saw one of these in person earlier today. Good layout. Only criticism I would have is the the overemphasis on differentiating the operators - TFI should be doing everything they can to make sure customers understand that the Go-Ahead and Dublin Bus routes are all part of a combined city service. What happens at stops also used by Bus Eireann, Aircoach and other private operators?

Agreed hopefully with the implementation of Bus Connects, services will be marked on bus stops simply as 'Urban Services' for DB and GAI services and 'Regional Services' in the case of BE or Go-Aheads BE tendered routes. Also hopefully with Bus Connects there will a centralised NTA social media page for all bus, commuter rail, DART and Luas services and centralised NTA/TFI TFL style iBus system.

Stephen15

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Will my tax saver leap card work on the GA operated routes?

Yes

xper

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Will my tax saver leap card work on the GA operated routes?

Thanks for proving my point- this question shouldn't even be occurring to any customer.

john boye

superg wrote: »

Was thinking the same myself regarding the teal stripe. It really doesn't fit with the rest of the livery now. It should be yellow too and the yellow on the side should flow in the same direction as the other two stripes, so from the top front corner sweeping down to the bottom just behind the front wheel. Then it'd be fine IMO.

Agree completely. I'm not saying it would fix the livery but it'd surely make it look a bit better.

devnull

xper wrote: »

Yeah, saw one of these in person earlier today. Good layout. Only criticism I would have is the the overemphasis on differentiating the operators - TFI should be doing everything they can to make sure customers understand that the Go-Ahead and Dublin Bus routes are all part of a combined city service.

Well I can't imagine that will be an easy sell to DB, considering how important they see their brand. The TFI branding with the operators brands as sub brands, like they are in the new timetable displays and stops and NTA livery, is a good interim measure and a staging post towards full integration I'd say.

Realistically from the start of the 175, Dublin Bus should be using the TFI Journey Planner rather than their own, since this is my big fears about fragmentation, that the DB site won't acknowledge the GA services exist. Since GA and LUAS are using the multi-mode, all operator planner, Dublin Bus should too.

xper wrote: »

Thanks for proving my point- this question shouldn't even be occurring to any customer.

We also need to see tickets being rebranded as well, since it sounds a little confusing that Dublin Bus tickets are accepted on Go-Ahead services. Really the best interim measure here would be to brand them as TFI ramblers for example, and but also feature something to denote they are valid on both GA and DB services, phasing it out over time.

Stephen15

xper wrote: »

Thanks for proving my point- this question shouldn't even be occurring to any customer.

To be fair the NTA/TFI have been very clear in regards to the fact that the fares will be the same, Leap will be accepted and DB Taxsaver will be accepted.

I presume the NTA conceding a loss by allowing people use DB Taxsaver tickets be used on GAI services as the revenue for those tickets is going to DB and not the NTA.

XPS_Zero

Kh1993 wrote: »

Fairly strange one: Brand new DB Yellow stops gone into the ground along the Kilbarrack end of the 17a route, which is due to swap to GA in a couple of months. Waste of resources or something I don't know?

Something you don't know: in Ireland the public sector will always do things in the dumbest , least thought out, most inefficient, wasteful and mind fumblingly stupid way imaginable. Before LEAP came in, even though they knew LEAP was coming, they all brought out their own smart cards separate to it that didn't work with each other.

As to Dublin bus's "brand" obsession, as I said before if they wanna act like a commercial entity and faff on about their "branding" tell them to operate without a PSO, in the mean time to STFU and do what they are told.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

Well I can't imagine that will be an easy sell to DB, considering how important they see their brand. The TFI branding with the operators brands as sub brands, like they are in the new timetable displays and stops and NTA livery, is a good interim measure and a staging post towards full integration I'd say.

Realistically from the start of the 175, Dublin Bus should be using the TFI Journey Planner rather than their own, since this is my big fears about fragmentation, that the DB site won't acknowledge the GA services exist. Since GA and LUAS are using the multi-mode, all operator planner, Dublin Bus should too.

I don't know what the deal is with real time but can DB or filter out GAI services from their real time which is being feed to them by the NTA. I know BE services do not appear on the DB app however they are a different type of service to DB and GA urban services so perhaps the NTA could block DB from filtering out GAI services from their app.

The DB journey planner is rubbish as it is and doesn't even give accurate information about their own services let alone the services of other operators. I would hope nobody relies on it for bus information. They do give info about the DART and Luas which is also inaccurate so perhaps they may do with Go-Ahead services also.

We also need to see tickets being rebranded as well, since it sounds a little confusing that Dublin Bus tickets are accepted on Go-Ahead services. Really the best interim measure here would be to brand them as TFI ramblers for example, and but also feature something to denote they are valid on both GA and DB services, phasing it out over time.

I agree with your sentiment but I don't think "TFI rambler" would work either as that would imply these tickets are also valid on IE and Luas which they are not but are also under the TFI banner.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

I don't know what the deal is with real time but can DB or filter out GAI services from their real time which is being feed to them by the NTA. I know BE services do not appear on the DB app however they are a different type of service to DB and GA urban services so perhaps the NTA could block DB from filtering out GAI services from their app.

I believe buses feed into a central system that then feeds data out to sources, such as the street signs, the various apps and websites. I would say that DB would only get a feed of their own services and they probably do some post processing to put the features like delay expected and this is why the DB app can show short terminations and the other places can't - the raw data doesn't say this, but they probably override it before sending it via their app. DB certainly don't seem to be using the raw feed, as I've often seen the DB app and Street signs disagree, but RTI and Street signs and RTPI.ie almost always agree.

Anyway I don't think we should be promoting DB listing GAI services on their own app as anything other than an interim measure. We should be moving away from operator apps and replacing them with a single TFI app. If you remove the DB app completely everyone will then use Real Time Ireland and the National Journey Planner App and the problem is gone without having to do anything overnight.

I agree with your sentiment but I don't think "TFI rambler" would work either as that would imply these tickets are also valid on IE and Luas which they are not which are also under the TFI banner.

Come to think of it I agree. You can't really use "TFI Dublin Bus Rambler" because that makes it feels like it's only accepted on Dublin Bus. If you use "TFI Bus Rambler" it makes it seem like it's valid outside Dublin. I think Rambler might even be trademarked, but I'm not sure, so they'll have to use a different name anyway. They could just go for something generic rather than branded though like a 30 day Dublin city bus pass saying it's valid on any DB or TFI branded service, but then you have things like the 139 where it's not and TFI branded BE services.

Not sure how they will fix this one!

Stephen15

I think in the long run there may need to separate TFI sub brands based on regions to prevent confusion between for PSO services in various different regions. Examples would be.

-TFI Dublin (for DB/GAI, Luas, Metro hopefully and DART)

-TFI Leinster (for BE/GAI Dublin commuter routes, Dublin Commuter rail and other services such as the 139 and M+A coaches)

This system could also be extended to the rest of the country e.g. TFI Cork City, TFI Munster etc.

MJohnston

^ you do realise what the "I" in TFI stands for, right?

Stephen15

MJohnston wrote: »

^ you do realise what the "I" in TFI stands for, right?

Yes but having a website for services all over the country may be confusing for someone only wanting to make to make a journey in Dublin. It would be a sub brand system similar to before CIE was divided in three there was Dublin City Services.

MJohnston

It'd just be something else to hear a brand called "Transport for Ireland Dublin", not that I would ever suggest that Irish authorities wouldn't do it.

Stephen15

MJohnston wrote: »

It'd just be something else to hear a brand called "Transport for Ireland Dublin", not that I would ever suggest that Irish authorities wouldn't do it.

Well you could have also said that 'CIE Dublin City Services' was also contradicting considering what the E stood for. On another note should TFI not also be branded IDE.

Yer Da sells Avon

Right, I was bored. Using MS Paint, I've put the stripes in the opposite direction and replaced the teal one with the TFI shade of green, which doesn't clash as much with the yellow. Ignore the newer-style front end.

MJohnston

Yeah, that's much better. What about with the green stripe just being yellow, or a second white stripe?

n!ghtmancometh

xper wrote: »

Thanks for proving my point- this question shouldn't even be occurring to any customer.

When I signed up for tax saver last year through work, it was called a 'Dublin Bus annual ticket' or something to that effect, so I was just wondering if it also would cover the GA routes.

I also am curious as how renewing it in December will work. My current route is being scrapped and replaced by a feeder to the Luas. Will I now have to apply for a more expensive bus and Luas tax saver ticket to cover me for 2019?

MJohnston

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

When I signed up for tax saver last year through work, it was called a 'Dublin Bus annual ticket' or something to that effect, so I was just wondering if it also would cover the GA routes.

I also am curious as how renewing it in December will work. My current route is being scrapped and replaced by a feeder to the Luas. Will I now have to apply for a more expensive bus and Luas tax saver ticket to cover me for 2019?

You mean under BusConnects? I would actually imagine TaxSaver tickets will have to be somewhat reorganised, as the cross-mode flat rate will change the fare structure hugely.

n!ghtmancometh

MJohnston wrote: »

You mean under BusConnects? I would actually imagine TaxSaver tickets will have to be somewhat reorganised, as the cross-mode flat rate will change the fare structure hugely.

Yep, I mean under busconnects.

Stevek101

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/customer-notice-about-new-bus-service-175-from-citywest-to-ucd/

It looks like two liveries will remain in situ.

What’s different?

Go-Ahead Ireland vehicles and Dublin Bus vehicles will operate with their own colour scheme, although both will be similar at the front which is yellow in both cases (see picture above).

Inside the bus, the seats will be a different colour (see picture below), although poles are yellow in both Go-Ahead Ireland vehicles and Dublin Bus vehicles.

Bus stop poles and information carousels will look different depending on the operator (see picture below). Over the coming months as Go Ahead Ireland begins operation of their routes, customers will notice new bus stops being installed. This will be done in advance of the switch over and they will have stages, routes and timetables clearly marked on them.

devnull

Stevek101 wrote: »

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/customer-notice-about-new-bus-service-175-from-citywest-to-ucd/

It looks like two liveries will remain in situ.

That's very much not a good thing for the customer if Dublin Bus will not be adapting the new integrated livery or using the same uniform stops. I wonder if that is because of resistance from their side more than anything else, because the NTA have a contractual right to force them to adapt the livery in theory.

Don't think this is going to serve consumers well, you need everything to act as one system really and it seems that whilst GA are going to be promoting the TFI brand and also LUAS are promoting integration to a degree, Dublin Bus may well not be, which ultimately means serving the public transport users interests in relation to a properly integrated system, are not really going to be met.

Also can't help feeling that this might accelerate any plans to tender more out at the end of the day, since if the NTA feel that they cannot meet their objectives with the current structure of the operators, they may well look for a way to change the structure to one where they can.

Stevek101

It would appear the yellow front about as much for visual impairment as it is a meet in the middle livery.

devnull

Stevek101 wrote: »

It would appear the yellow front about as much for visual impairment as it is a meet in the middle livery.

Not really meeting in the middle though if Dublin Bus are still going to stick to their old livery and not adapt to the new, integrated one, even after a yellow front has been added to it as a compromise and they are also continuing to plough their own furrow with relation to apps, timetables and journey planning etc which is going to create confusion in the short term.

I see why Dublin Bus might resist the new livery, even if I don't agree with them, but I can't think that will do anything else other than just encourage them to tender more out at a later date. My concern is how the interests of the public in having an integrated system doesn't seem to be high on the agenda of companies who were set up to serve the public before all else.

Can you imagine if in London where most operators of public transport services had their own app, their own website, their own journey planner that doesn't include other operators under the TFL banner? Planning a journey would be a complete nightmare as would getting information when you'd have to use a number of different apps and it'd still be difficult.

Really parties, be that private or public, who are running taxpayer contracts services need to think about the public first and foremost. If they want to concentrate on brands, private interests, then there is a commercial licensing route for that, they can't have the security of tens of millions of public funds for services, whilst also having the freedom of being a fully commercial enterprise.

Stephen15

They could gone for a livery with yellow at the front the rest blue and then DB and GAI could make their own slight customisation IE the bus would be 80% in TFI livery and 20% in DB/GAI livery but would still look the same at the front. Similar to how London buses used to be where operators could make their own slight adjustments to the red.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

They could gone for a livery with yellow at the front the rest blue and then DB and GAI could make their own slight customisation IE the bus would be 80% in TFI livery and 20% in DB/GAI livery but would still look the same at the front. Similar to how London buses used to be where operators could make their own slight adjustments to the red.

The idea of allowing the operator to have their logo rather than just a name in normal font was a concession that the NTA made from the original proposals.

Sierra Oscar

devnull wrote: »

That's very much not a good thing for the customer if Dublin Bus will not be adapting the new integrated livery or using the same uniform stops. I wonder if that is because of resistance from their side more than anything else, because the NTA have a contractual right to force them to adapt the livery in theory.

I'm surprised at this, I thought it was already confirmed that Dublin Bus would be adapting to the new integrated livery?

This whole integrated bus services concept seems to be slowly unraveling. It certainly doesn't seem as ambitious as it once was if they can't even agree on uniform livery and bus stops. It doesn't bode well for the future.

sharper

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

This whole integrated bus services concept seems to be slowly unraveling. It certainly doesn't seem as ambitious as it once was if they can't even agree on uniform livery and bus stops. It doesn't bode well for the future.

When the NTA experiences resistance they seem to take an approach of waiting to let it break and then fix it. Luas Cross City and traffic management is a perfect example.

They'll allow people to become confused about multiple operators and then fix it later. I assume at some point the entire bus network is going to be on a tender model with fares going to the NTA, at that point you would think consistent branding would be a requirement even if Dublin Bus are the only ones applying to run it.

Stevek101

I reckon Yer Da sells Avon should send his render into the NTA. It isn't bad at all and should keep the public happy.

Stephen15

It appears the first Go-Ahead DB routes won't transfer over until the 18th October rather than the original date of the 7th October according to GA on Twitter.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

It appears the first Go-Ahead DB routes won't transfer over until the 18th October rather than the original date of the 7th October according to GA on Twitter.

I think by October 18, they meant October 2018
https://twitter.com/GoAheadIreland/status/1037998978078568449