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Child Item

98% of the abuses were within the community

riemann

It is a very apt observation especially in today's cimlate.

The issue of child abuse is rampant and far from exclusive to the church.

It's sad to see all the selfless work offered by many generations of religious institutions completely ignored, as currently it is fashionable to tar all with the same brush.

Of course this is a dangerous game when referring to other religious, ethnic or gender groups.

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Gimme A Pound

Roger_007 wrote: »

It is easy to blame all the abuses that occurred in this country on the Church. But, if we do, we are ignoring the the real cause of the problem and that is the rottenness at the core of Irish society.
The church had no power to do anything except the power that was given to them by the Irish people. The people used the church to dispose of their embarrassing problems. The Irish now are great at washing their hands of any responsibility for the actions of the church, but the truth is that the church could have done nothing without the wholehearted support of the people. All the clergy, nuns, priests, brothers etc, came from 'decent Irish Catholic families'. The church simply carried out the wishes of the people.
If anyone doubts where the real responsibility lies, just ask yourself the question: 'how did the women who ended up in Magdelene Laundries and Mother and Baby homes come to be in those places'.
The answer is that they were there because their families and communities rejected them and didn't care what happened to them as long as they didn't bring their 'problem' home. They church simply did society's 'dirty work' and they did it with society's wholehearted approval.

I agree with you to an extent but my issue with too much thinking that way is the danger of the responsibility being removed from the clergy who abused, and those within their organisation who helped cover it up.

My mother would adamantly support your point of view; my father, despite being from a more religious family than my mother, would totally blame the church, saying good people didn't know - and he as a child didn't. I think the answer probably lies in the middle, varying as to whether you're talking urban Ireland or rural Ireland, poor Ireland or middle-class Ireland, educated or uneducated, etc. My mother is from a very rural area that could be tough-going, especially in the winter. My father is from a nice, pretty, comfy little town. He was sheltered - genuinely thought the church was kindness and love.

As my mother says, people got thrown into asylums by their families too for mild misdemeanours, church or no church. But there were also people who were sent to institutions because they were simply taken off their families due to the poverty of the families (or e.g. if the mother became widowed); the families did not have a say.

For a small country, I think it was quite a complex matter.

Hellrazer

anewme wrote: »

Harsh as it sounds, we need to move on from this.

It's destroyed enough people and families.

We`ll move on when these child rapists admit what they did and make some inroads to making sure it doesn't happen again. He didn't go far enough this weekend in addressing these issues.

Dank Janniels

gmisk wrote: »

Where is the 98 percent figure from?

sum guy said it on rte report after the mass, i think thats what the op is alluding to?

NIMAN

Dank Janniels wrote: »

sum guy said it on rte report after the mass, i think thats what the op is alluding to?

Was it not some randomer walking along the street coming out of the Phoenix Park?

Absolutely zero fact based, just a guys opinion.

anewme

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

when you don't know what's going on in other's lives, you think they/we should "move on" though...

I know having lived with this for fifty years that we need to not let it define us.

We need to find a way of accepting it and moving forward with our lives. The best and only revenge is living well.

My Father grew up in Artane Industrial School in the early 1940's.He was an orphan. The orphans had it tougher than the others, as they had no one to defend them or take care of them. Others, put in for mitching or robbing, bullied the orphans as well as them being a soft target for abuse.

It destroyed my Dad and us as a family.

In the Court case, he was described as being one of the most impacted people in Ireland.He recalls seeing a child die- falling down a huge staircase,

A book written 25 years ago or so, brought it all back as he was named without his permission and the whole circus began. And has continued.

My Dad will die without seeing any real justice. That is a fact. He's bad with dementia now, so one positive if there is one, that hopefully those memories are gone, and if there is a God, that he will meet the Mother that he never knew, who rejected him when all he wanted to be was accepted.

Our family has had intense counselling, some fantastic people, and the best and most realistic way of moving forward is to accept you might never get answers, or justice. It's not about forgiveness, it's about acceptance.

Many have died without answers , died seeking answers, but by not letting it define you, you are taking control of the rest of your life, whatever that is.

That's what I mean by moving on, I would advise anyone directly impacted to do the same. Do what's best for your own family situation. Look for a way past this, that gives you peace.

As for the faux outraged patronising brigade even here trying to be smart, they can just fck off as they haven't a fcking clue.

Dank Janniels

NIMAN wrote: »

Was it not some randomer walking along the street coming out of the Phoenix Park?

Absolutely zero fact based, just a guys opinion.

yea that guy, he came across abit thick bout it

Mrs OBumble

punisher5112 wrote: »

Of course other have and do abuse but these absolutely filthy backstards could have been stopped from carrying out further rapes and attacks on innocent children....

Sick fookers

I agree totally. Priest and brothers did appalling things, and the authorities (bishops, guards, lawyers, judges) who should have stopped them were even more appalling.

But I think you'll find that in current times, priests and brothers have been stopped. And any new case that occurs will be dealt with swiftly and correctly.

Whereas your regular Paddy KidFúcker ... well lets just say "Grace".

(All those young women who got pregnant and were put into Mother and Baby homes by their families - do you really believe it was on-the-sly boyfriends who got them pregnant? Priests systematically raping lots of young women? ... )

bisset

Edgware wrote: »

Any evidence of that except the word of the local nutjob

The coroner accepted Cindy Owen's evidence

wexandproud

Roger_007 wrote: »

It is easy to blame all the abuses that occurred in this country on the Church. But, if we do, we are ignoring the the real cause of the problem and that is the rottenness at the core of Irish society.
The church had no power to do anything except the power that was given to them by the Irish people. The people used the church to dispose of their embarrassing problems. The Irish now are great at washing their hands of any responsibility for the actions of the church, but the truth is that the church could have done nothing without the wholehearted support of the people. All the clergy, nuns, priests, brothers etc, came from 'decent Irish Catholic families'. The church simply carried out the wishes of the people.
If anyone doubts where the real responsibility lies, just ask yourself the question: 'how did the women who ended up in Magdelene Laundries and Mother and Baby homes come to be in those places'.
The answer is that they were there because their families and communities rejected them and didn't care what happened to them as long as they didn't bring their 'problem' home. They church simply did society's 'dirty work' and they did it with society's wholehearted approval.

i heard a guy on the radio and then saw him on the news saying he had to explain to the pope about the Magdlen laundries and other institutions . Countries all over europe had done away with these kind of places in the late 1800's early 1900's . All over europe they were seen as not working but they were kept open here , i suppose they were seen as an irish solution to an irish problem
There were terrible crimes inflicted on some of the most vulnerable in society , crimes carried out by sick , twisted people who are being protected by others . However , society as a whole as it looked out through it's squinting windows is not blameless in all that went on

NIMAN

wexandproud wrote: »

i heard a guy on the radio and then saw him on the news saying he had to explain to the pope about the Magdlen laundries and other institutions . Countries all over europe had done away with these kind of places in the late 1800's early 1900's . All over europe they were seen as not working but they were kept open here , i suppose they were seen as an irish solution to an irish problem
There were terrible crimes inflicted on some of the most vulnerable in society , crimes carried out by sick , twisted people who are being protected by others . However , society has a whole as it looked out through it's squinting windows is not blameless in all that went on

Seen that guy myself, and I don't believe for a second that the pope had not heard about them. He was playing dumb if he did.

You really think for one second that :

a) he didn't know about them, despite them being run by the church
b) even if he didn't, that his advisors would let him go to Ireland, where they know that the church is under real scrutiny, without filling him in on everything that the population was really p1ssed about?

I think the guy on the news also hinted that the pope knew nothing about the 800 babies buried in Tuam. Give me a break, of course he did.

wexandproud

NIMAN wrote: »

Seen that guy myself, and I don't believe for a second that the pope had not heard about them. He was playing dumb if he did.

You really think for one second that :

a) he didn't know about them, despite them being run by the church
b) even if he didn't, that his advisors would let him go to Ireland, where they know that the church is under real scrutiny, without filling him in on everything that the population was really p1ssed about?

I think the guy on the news also hinted that the pope knew nothing about the 800 babies buried in Tuam. Give me a break, of course he did.

after listening to several people being interview over the past few days about reform in the church , i think it is possible . . It seems that he is trying to make change but their seems to me a few levels of a kind of ''middle management '' running the church
A guy who sat with the pope and spoke to him a guy who did not appear to have an ajenda [ i know , i know , bad choice of words ] says francis did not appear to know , but you are sure he did , what makes you so sure

NIMAN

You don't think he might have been informed about 800 babies being buried in a mass grave in controversial circumstances by a place overseen by the CC?

I just find it hard to believe.

You don't think the pope is prepped for trips? I'm sure they had to cover everything he might be asked about. Otherwise if he had come out with "what 800 babies", how much of a fool and how useless would that have made him look had it happened?

wexandproud

NIMAN wrote: »

You don't think he might have been informed about 800 babies being buried in a mass grave in controversial circumstances by a place overseen by the CC?

I just find it hard to believe.

You don't think the pope is prepped for trips? I'm sure they had to cover everything he might be asked about. Otherwise if he had come out with "what 800 babies", how much of a fool and how useless would that have made him look had it happened?

i don't want to come across as overly defensive of the pope , or defensive at all of those who carried out terrible deeds , however it's possible that he is not aware . All it takes is someone in the vatican to try and suppress the information in the hope that it wont raise it ugly head .
anyway gotta go see if I can do a days work , good luck

NIMAN

Anything is possible I suppose.

Roger Hassenforder

anewme wrote: »

I know having lived with this for fifty years that we need to not let it define us.

We need to find a way of accepting it and moving forward with our lives. The best and only revenge is living well.

That's horrific, I dont know how I'd deal with it.
Nor would I tell others how they should.

But until the Church actually says "sorry" for the abuse and cover ups, rather than expressing regret, and facilitating rather than frustrating criminal justice, it's rather difficult to move on.

I'm glad you have a way. I hope things work out for you.

Ash.J.Williams

riemann wrote: »

It is a very apt observation especially in today's cimlate.

The issue of child abuse is rampant and far from exclusive to the church.

It's sad to see all the selfless work offered by many generations of religious institutions completely ignored, as currently it is fashionable to tar all with the same brush.

Of course this is a dangerous game when referring to other religious, ethnic or gender groups.

You need to read up the the church abuse as you don't seem to grasp the seriousness of how a worldwide cult can hide predators and move them around from the highest level.

Mr. CooL ICE

Mod: Closing, as we already have two active pope threads and this topic is already being discussed