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Child Item

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

ED E

They've published!

The government has published a new map outlining in detail 700,000 rural homes and businesses which will be connected to state-subsidised broadband of at least 30 megabits per second (Mbs) from 2016.

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/revealed-700000-homes-and-businesses-to-get-subsidised-fast-broadband-in-new-plan-30769126.html

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KOR101

Looks like they believe something is really going to happen with all these appointments.

Open-access network provider enet has announced the appointment of Claire M. Murphy as the group general counsel and company secretary.

Ms Murphy now has responsibility for all legal workstreams for the group, as well as corporate governance matters.

https://www.irishlegal.com/article/open-access-network-provider-appoints-claire-murphy-as-general-counsel

digiman

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Where are you getting a 25% take-up figure on SIRO? According to this it's closer to 14%.

https://siro.ie/siro-delivers-1-gigabit-connectivity-to-park-developments-clay-farm/

Also the builds are so new in a lot of cases that making long term predictions on take-up is foolish. You would need to isolate areas that have been live for a significant period of time to make fair comparisons.

There were 7000 FTTH connections in Q2 2018 on Openeir. There is plenty of demand.

Take up is usually measured after a certain period of time. E.g. After homes have been eligible for connection for 1 year, the take-up could be 25%.

You don't simply divide number of homes with live service into the number of homes eligible for service as you need to baseline it after some time has passed.

tsue921i8wljb3

digiman wrote: »

Take up is usually measured after a certain period of time. E.g. After homes have been eligible for connection for 1 year, the take-up could be 25%.

You don't simply divide number of homes with live service into the number of homes eligible for service as you need to baseline it after some time has passed.

That's why I said

You would need to isolate areas that have been live for a significant period of time to make fair comparisons.

I was rebutting Marlow who was using the simple division method to get a take-up rate for Openeir.

Marlow

The problem is, that we actually don't have enough data for accurate take-up figures.

But pricing is certainly a factor in slow take up. If people weren't so deprived of broadband in the first place in some areas, take up on OpenEIR would be even lower.

What also is interesting, is that OpenEIR actually finally covered some areas (in Louth and Donegal for example) as part of the 300k, that had no DSL previously. None at all. Not even ADSL1.

You'd nearly think, that such areas normally would have been classified as unviable.

/M

[Deleted User]

Marlow wrote: »

The problem is, that we actually don't have enough data for accurate take-up figures.

But pricing is certainly a factor in slow take up. If people weren't so deprived of broadband in the first place in some areas, take up on OpenEIR would be even lower.

What also is interesting, is that OpenEIR actually finally covered some areas (in Louth and Donegal for example) as part of the 300k, that had no DSL previously. None at all. Not even ADSL1.

You'd nearly think, that such areas normally would have been classified as unviable.

/M

I've pointed out a few times that the viable/unviable seems mostly useless when it comes to the Eir rollout, in my local area there's a village that has been skipped on eFibre for years despite it being claimed to be "just around the corner", you'd think roughly 200 homes all within a 1km radius would be a golden thing for an FTTH rollout but no we've been skipped on that too.

fritzelly

Just talking from experience and no real numbers (except made up in my head) but the take up hasn't been great. Can think of several areas where only a couple of people signed up for fibre.
But there is a proviso there - I have been told word has spread (by many in different areas) when installs fail and no one bothers signing up til a few people get connected and we all know there are big swathes of areas that are supposed to be live but have problems.
I would expect as the rollout matures and all the issues get permanently fixed the take up starts to increase.

Marlow

Eir tried to motivate takeup with the free installation.

The issue is, that after 6 months, they increased the monthly pricing (ahead of the regular 12 month increase), when they jacked all the 150 Mbit/s connections up by 6 EUR.

The regular increase at the end of the year kicked customers totally in the balls.

Obviously they lost too much with the free installation offer, so while they're still discounting it, they can't justify it for free anymore.

Uptake will be less now than before.

/M

Johnboy1951

fritzelly wrote: »

Just talking from experience and no real numbers (except made up in my head) but the take up hasn't been great. Can think of several areas where only a couple of people signed up for fibre.
But there is a proviso there - I have been told word has spread (by many in different areas) when installs fail and no one bothers signing up til a few people get connected and we all know there are big swathes of areas that are supposed to be live but have problems.
I would expect as the rollout matures and all the issues get permanently fixed the take up starts to increase.

None of the phone numbers in my area that I have tested on eir website show availability of fibre, even though it was supposed to go live 3 weeks ago, and a couple of 'representatives' were around selling the service.
This is not a 'one off' situation as I understand it.

Marlow

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

None of the phone numbers in my area that I have tested on eir website show availability of fibre, even though it was supposed to go live 3 weeks ago, and a couple of 'representatives' were around selling the service.
This is not a 'one off' situation as I understand it.

Of last months "big chunk" at least 1/3 is pooched. A lot of them will now show "no ports available", if you check on Airwires checker.

Looks like the usual ritual at the start of the quarter. Makes it look like they aren't quite that far behind.

/M

MBSnr

Marlow wrote: »

Erhmm .. While posters are one of the best ways to advertise, they are not legal. The County Council fines the companies putting them up, when they see them. So even if Eir was sticking them on OpenEIRs poles, it still wouldn't be legal and could cost them 150 EUR or more per poster plus the cost of putting them up and then sending somebody out to take them down again.

Eir has been putting advertising on their VDSL cabinets though.

Eir has also been sending swarms of salesmen into these areas. Obviously many people may not be at home, when the rep comes around.

Do you know, how hard it is to inform your customers of new services, when they're available ? And the next thing that happens, is that they wonder off to the competition for a deal, that seemingly looks better (but may not be in the long run).

/M

I noticed Airwire posters on poles around our area, Westnet posted their flyers to each house and Eir salesmen called to the house. Digiweb wouldn't get much exposure. I only knew about them as I've been following this forum.

Johnboy1951

Marlow wrote: »

Of last months "big chunk" at least 1/3 is pooched. A lot of them will now show "no ports available", if you check on Airwires checker.

Looks like the usual ritual at the start of the quarter. Makes it look like they aren't quite that far behind.

/M

Both eir and airwire show fibre available according to eircode.
It is only when using the phone number on the eir checker that the problems show up.

Marlow

MBSnr wrote: »

I noticed Airwire posters on poles around our area, Westnet posted their flyers to each house and Eir salesmen called to the house. Digiweb wouldn't get much exposure. I only knew about them as I've been following this forum.

Airwire and Westnet are local to you.

In Dundalk, nobody would know Airwire or Westnet. But they would know Net1 and Digiweb.

Well, Digiweb is a bit more known around, but mostly urban. So if you lived around Galway City or as far out as lets say Corrandulla or the likes, then you might have been on their Docsis based fixed wireless system, that was known for it's very annoying rolling cap.

And Eir simply has the money to hire lots of agencies to go out and simply flood the areas with sales guys.

Besides ... there is a way around the fines for posters

.... but you have to be local enough to manage that. If you move them often enough, the council don't get annoyed by them, as they might see them once or twice in a place and then they're gone. Too much effort for Eir.

/M

listermint

Eir have people's phone numbers. Their addresses and most likely their bloody emails.

Yet they're wasting money on door to door crap sales people.

It's certainly not the environment of new age thinking in that company. We sell 100% of our business globally over the net via phone.

Anyone who thinks that it's the customers fault for not wanting the service isn't selling the service and something as imperative as BB having those low up take figures it's Eirs marketing technical and product team thats at fault. New blood needed in there . This should be like shooting fish in a barrel . You have to at least inform the fish first. Knocking on doors during the day isn't doing that.

Selling is trying to solve a problem. Eir hasnt shone a light on the customers problem.

Marlow

listermint wrote: »

Eir have people's phone numbers. Their addresses and most likely their bloody emails.

Yet they're wasting money on door to door crap sales people

Mjaeh ... you missed my point above. They actually don't.

By pissing people off over the decades and with the introduction of mobiles phones they, actually don't. Not only that, they sold Eircell ... now Vodafone ... so for many many years, they had no records of anybody with a mobile phone.

Lots and lots and lots of new houses didn't bother with a phone line. Why spend 26 eur/month line rental for nothing ?

Oh .... and then they p***** people off when they were Telecom Eireann ... or P&T before that. How many years did it take to even get a phone line ? And how many people are still charged for that rental phone, that's long gone the way of the dodo .... Eir can't replace it, because they don't do that anymore, but they also refuse to take that charge of the bill ?

Local internet providers came around and provided a service, they didn't. Even more people who don't have a phone line.

Etc. etc. etc.

Make the math ... at least 1 of 3 houses, they don't have the data. Of the remainder, 8 out of 10 don't take the phone or are around, when they ring them ... because people don't carry their landline around with them, when they go to work or shopping. And then we're back to that voicemail problem: people don't have voicemail .. .if they have it, they don't listen to it or don't know how to access it.

And to be honest, even if you got a sales voicemail from Eir ... do you know, how hard it is to get in touch with that same person in Eir again ?

In the old days, you might have known your local Eircom guy, like you know your postman. You'd have a pint with them in the pub and in rural areas, thats how you sort things most of the times. But those guys have been laid off and outsourced to KN. So that aspect is also gone. A lot of the KN vans drive around on nordie or UK reg, especially the cherrypickers .. not doing them any favours either. Oh ... and then there's that green diesel incident recently :P People might let that slide, if the price was right .... but it isn't ..

Local provider rings you, you get back to them, you might get transferred once and you're back talking to the same guy.

So ... 1+1 = ??

Because of all above .. and because of engaging with the community in the bigger picture is too much hassle .... they just hire sales organisations ... who then go from door to door. They're too big to be personal. They're not even an irish corporation anymore. Eircom is registered in Jersey and owned by the french. So any money paid to Eir is going out of the country.

And did I mention, that Eir has 5 billing systems, who are all seperate, one going back to 1972 ... and all full of inaccurate data ? Not integrated ? And their database is a mess ? Sometimes the address on the account is counties away from where the phoneline is ? Do you know, why the rollout also is pretty messy ? How do you think, the rollout would look like, if eircodes didn't exist ?

Have you seen, how many people ask, if they need to order a phone line first, before they can order FTTH in the Eir FTTH thread ? A lot. And that's an entire different sales scam all together, which sales people seem to have pulled. Because a) they didn't get proper training and are clueless or b) they make a bigger commission.

The 300k has been a big stunt to sabotage the NBP, which has been successful. It's sad for the 500+k, that have been left in the dust. The 300k+ that are getting it, it's a fantastic service and certainly future proof. But it comes a decade late ... Scandinavia did their rollout on FTTH in the rural areas 10 years ago ... because it was easier to get licenses and planning in rural areas than in urban. In Denmark, it was the electricity suppliers and gas companies, that did it. The former incumbent had to buy the companies up, to get the infrastructure afterwards.

/M

turbbo

Possibly the best post I’ve ever seen on boards!! Well done Marlow. Pretty much the state of things alright!

smelly sock

Marlow wrote: »

Mjaeh ... you missed my point above. They actually don't.

By pissing people off over the decades and with the introduction of mobiles phones they, actually don't. Not only that, they sold Eircell ... now Vodafone ... so for many many years, they had no records of anybody with a mobile phone.

Lots and lots and lots of new houses didn't bother with a phone line. Why spend 26 eur/month line rental for nothing ?

Oh .... and then they p***** people off when they were Telecom Eireann ... or P&T before that. How many years did it take to even get a phone line ? And how many people are still charged for that rental phone, that's long gone the way of the dodo .... Eir can't replace it, because they don't do that anymore, but they also refuse to take that charge of the bill ?

Local internet providers came around and provided a service, they didn't. Even more people who don't have a phone line.

Etc. etc. etc.

Make the math ... at least 1 of 3 houses, they don't have the data. Of the remainder, 8 out of 10 don't take the phone or are around, when they ring them ... because people don't carry their landline around with them, when they go to work or shopping. And then we're back to that voicemail problem: people don't have voicemail .. .if they have it, they don't listen to it or don't know how to access it.

And to be honest, even if you got a sales voicemail from Eir ... do you know, how hard it is to get in touch with that same person in Eir again ?

In the old days, you might have known your local Eircom guy, like you know your postman. You'd have a pint with them in the pub and in rural areas, thats how you sort things most of the times. But those guys have been laid off and outsourced to KN. So that aspect is also gone. A lot of the KN vans drive around on nordie or UK reg, especially the cherrypickers .. not doing them any favours either. Oh ... and then there's that green diesel incident recently :P People might let that slide, if the price was right .... but it isn't ..

Local provider rings you, you get back to them, you might get transferred once and you're back talking to the same guy.

So ... 1+1 = ??

Because of all above .. and because of engaging with the community in the bigger picture is too much hassle .... they just hire sales organisations ... who then go from door to door. They're too big to be personal. They're not even an irish corporation anymore. Eircom is registered in Jersey and owned by the french. So any money paid to Eir is going out of the country.

And did I mention, that Eir has 5 billing systems, who are all seperate, one going back to 1972 ... and all full of inaccurate data ? Not integrated ? And their database is a mess ? Sometimes the address on the account is counties away from where the phoneline is ? Do you know, why the rollout also is pretty messy ? How do you think, the rollout would look like, if eircodes didn't exist ?

Have you seen, how many people ask, if they need to order a phone line first, before they can order FTTH in the Eir FTTH thread ? A lot. And that's an entire different sales scam all together, which sales people seem to have pulled. Because a) they didn't get proper training and are clueless or b) they make a bigger commission.

The 300k has been a big stunt to sabotage the NBP, which has been successful. It's sad for the 500+k, that have been left in the dust. The 300k+ that are getting it, it's a fantastic service and certainly future proof. But it comes a decade late ... Scandinavia did their rollout on FTTH in the rural areas 10 years ago ... because it was easier to get licenses and planning in rural areas than in urban. In Denmark, it was the electricity suppliers and gas companies, that did it. The former incumbent had to buy the companies up, to get the infrastructure afterwards.

/M

Out of interest how do you know all of this?

The high horse brigade

smelly sock wrote: »

Out of interest how do you know all of this?

It's not fair to ask him to disclose who he is, he works in the industry is all that you need to know

Marlow

smelly sock wrote: »

Out of interest how do you know all of this?

Over 20 years in the industry. In Scandinavia, Germany, the Netherlands as well as here in Ireland.

And by having had to deal with Eircom in every part of their business: residential customer, business customer, wholesales customer.

Even trying to get a wrongly entered mobile number on a landline account removed, that is unrelated to yourself, is impossible ... and that's not even being a customer in the first place. Unless you know "somebody" in Eircom, that sorts this out for you, it's not going to get sorted. Any attempts through customer care lead nowhere. But comments, that I was in touch were there ... in the 4th billing system, that said person had to trawl through. That's the incident, where i found out about the multitude of billing systems. It's a simple task to rectify, if you're bothered. But their structures don't permit it. It gives you an idea, how much they care about having correct data in their systems.

And have you tried to cancel your account, when you don't have your account number yet ? You have to ring their understaffed cancellation service. They will NOT accept a letter, a fax or an email. It has to be a phone call, you have to get through to a person, who then has to find your account and confirm the cancellation with you. And even that regularly goes wrong, where they cancel your order, but don't tell OpenEIR. And then you can't order elsewhere.

They have recently fired all contractors (apart from KN and the indians), because those were the ones, that were easiest to cut out. The issue is just, they didn't check what jobs these contractors were doing. So there's a few time bombs to blow up, yet.

/M

KOR101

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cmm3nkOe7TYJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/wifi-group-aims-to-fill-rural-broadband-vacuum-1.3601240+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-b

ArrBee

KOR101 wrote: »

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cmm3nkOe7TYJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/wifi-group-aims-to-fill-rural-broadband-vacuum-1.3601240+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-b

Isn't that the crowd behind ruralwifi?
They sell plans for 4g mobile by piggy backing of mobile operators. Mostly 3 and Vodafone

I really dont think it is a solution to the problem. Just more a marketing grab.

tsue921i8wljb3

ArrBee wrote: »

Isn't that the crowd behind ruralwifi?
They sell plans for 4g mobile by piggy backing of mobile operators. Mostly 3 and Vodafone

I really dont think it is a solution to the problem. Just more a marketing grab.

It is Rural WiFi yes. Nice bit of advertising from the Times.

Marlow

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

It is Rural WiFi yes. Nice bit of advertising from the Times.

If that happened, it would just be a repeat in worse scenario of the last NBP.

/M

Ultimanemo

ArrBee wrote: »

KOR101 wrote: »

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:cmm3nkOe7TYJ:https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/wifi-group-aims-to-fill-rural-broadband-vacuum-1.3601240+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ie&client=firefox-b

Isn't that the crowd behind ruralwifi?
They sell plans for 4g mobile by piggy backing of mobile operators. Mostly 3 and Vodafone

I really dont think it is a solution to the problem. Just more a marketing grab.

I wish
They don't use Vodafone network, Vodafone are so careful about their network contention, They use Three network and you get exactly the same speed and contention as Three PAYG € 20, I had Rural Wifi and Three PAYG € 20 sim card in two routers side by side, When I forget which one I am connected to I have log into the router and the only way I know is to look at the phone number.

Marlow

Ultimanemo wrote: »

I wish
They don't use Vodafone network, Vodafone are so careful about their network contention, They use Three network and you get exactly the same speed and contention as Three PAYG € 20, I had Rural Wifi and Three PAYG € 20 sim card in two routers side by side, When I forget which one I am connected to I have log into the router and the only way I know is to look at the phone number.

The reason you don't have much contention on the vodafone network is because you don't have a signal most of the time

....

They're phone service is second to none, but their data products, their 4G coverage and their billing leave mile wide gaps for improvement.

I roam around all of the emerald isle with 5 data SIMs: 1 Three, one old O2 (now Three, but no 4G), one Meteor, one Vodafone and one international one. Vodafone does not work most of the time. And to be honest, it worked better when i was on the old 3G plan, that went as far up as H+, now that it has been upgraded to a 4G SIM it doesn't even work in urban areas most of the time.

However, if you have confirmed Vodafone 4G in a static place, then you should be golden. (untll they fix their network coverage and overload the network like Three

)

Also .. from a technology perspective .. Vodafone went cheapskates with their 4G tech. They piggy-backed the modems of the existing H2UPA infrastructure and didn't invest in more backbone. The same as they haven't invested in repairing their 2G voice coverage for years. I know this from a reliable source, that worked there until recently.

/M

Ultimanemo

Marlow wrote: »

Ultimanemo wrote: »

I wish
They don't use Vodafone network, Vodafone are so careful about their network contention, They use Three network and you get exactly the same speed and contention as Three PAYG € 20, I had Rural Wifi and Three PAYG € 20 sim card in two routers side by side, When I forget which one I am connected to I have log into the router and the only way I know is to look at the phone number.

The reason you don't have much contention on the vodafone network is because you don't have a signal most of the time ....

They're phone service is second to none, but their data products, their 4G coverage and their billing leave mile wide gaps for improvement.

I roam around all of the emerald isle with 5 data SIMs: 1 Three, one old O2 (now Three, but no 4G), one Meteor, one Vodafone and one international one. Vodafone does not work most of the time. And to be honest, it worked better when i was on the old 3G plan, that went as far up as H+, now that it has been upgraded to a 4G SIM it doesn't even work in urban areas most of the time.

However, if you have confirmed Vodafone 4G in a static place, then you should be golden. (untll they fix their network coverage and overload the network like Three )

Also .. from a technology perspective .. Vodafone went cheapskates with their 4G tech. They piggy-backed the modems of the existing HSDPA+ infrastructure and didn't invest in more backbone. The same as they haven't invested in repairing their 2G voice coverage for years. I know this from a reliable source, that worked there until recently.

/M

Where I live Vodafone coverage is very good, I have 4 bars of 4G all the time, I used their 150G for a week, I found that is not enough for my family, We need more than 300G a month, but the speed was up to 208 Mbps, and 40 Mbps was the slowest I measured " 8 to 10 pm" .

Marlow

Ultimanemo wrote: »

Where I live Vodafone coverage is very good, I have 4 bars of 4G all the time, I used their 150G for a week, I found that is not enough for my family, We need more than 300G a month, but the speed was up to 208 Mbps, and 40 Mbps was the slowest I measured " 8 to 10 pm" .

As I said .. if you're static and have good coverage, you're golden. Because it's so patchy, it doesn't get contended.

But it is a mobile product and the cost is to deliver a high volume traffic is high, even though you start out "cheap". It's like drugs

Ultimanemo

If it is only poor coverage that keeps Vodafone contention low, why then Three offers 750G a month for 30 Euro "let alone the €20 AYCE", While Vodafone wouldn't give more than 250G a month, if Vodafone will give 750G a month, the first thing I would do is to go to Naughten's page and put up the middle finger.

May be Three can give all that data because they were covering the national broadband scheme "NBS"

Marlow

Ultimanemo wrote: »

If it is only poor coverage that keeps Vodafone contention low, why then Three offers 750G a month for 30 Euro "let alone the €20 AYCE", While Vodafone wouldn't give more than 250G a month, if Vodafone will give 750G a month, the first thing I would do is to go to Naughten's page and leave the middle finger.

May be Three can give all that data because they were covering the national broadband scheme "NBS"

Vodafone has always been the most expensive operator, when it comes to data. Like 5GB data on their prepaid offers, when others where 15 or 20GB.

Also, Three has had a massive boost in infrastructure and network build from 2 events: they bought and integrated O2s network in their own and as part of the last NBS/NBP, they got 260M+ of government money plus access to a lot of sites, that they couldn't get into before hand.

So their network is a lot more extensive to Vodafones.

Three also shared 2G infrastructure with Vodafone. Matter of fact, when they joined on that front, the 2G infrastructure was moved into a seperate entity half owned by Vodafone and Three. Following that, no further investment was made in that infrastructure by either of the two, so it decayed. When Three finalized their O2 acquisition, they sold their share in that "dead duck" back to Vodafone. They may as well just have given it back to Vodafone. That is because by then they had aquired their entirely own 2G infrastructure owning O2.

/M

Grab All Association

When Three rolled out in 2005 we had 3G in my area. It wasn’t as good as Vodafone but it was useable. 2007 I got mobile midband from them for €19.99 a month. It was around 1mb but constantly lost service every night. In 2008 the 3G coverage suddenly disappeared around the same time of the NBS. Coincidence?. My area was in the NBS and it was absolutely useless but luckily I had 3mb ADSL by then thanks to an Eircom tech who spent half a day getting the line to qualify. Unfortunately my sister down the street was stuck with it. Average 30kbps pathetic. When the NBS ended in 2014 the 3G coverage went completely and hasn’t returned. o2 had great 3G coverage here until it was taken over by 3. That’s gone now too. Vodafone 4G is useable but eircom/meteor 4G/3G is perfect. I’m with Vodafone though because it’s a business plan I’m on.

I warned people on here at the time that this would be bad from a competition/infrastructure point of view. The replies were “virgin and ID means more competition”

No it doesn’t. There needs to be another mobile phone license auction. Not MVNOs.

Marlow

Grab All Association wrote: »

I warned people on here at the time that this would be bad from a competition/infrastructure point of view. The replies were “virgin and ID means more competition”

No it doesn’t. There needs to be another mobile phone license auction. Not MVNOs.

MVNOs do nothing for competition. The same as the company called "Rural Broadband".

Especially when they all depend on the same network: Three.

And you can see, what you get from that. iD is now gone the way of the dodo. Virgin will be able to cover losses, if needed, as they have other business. For them it's just complementary. They don't depend on it.

/M