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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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adrian522

You basically need to get your HR up as high as you can. So either a flat out 5K, Hill repeats or intervals on a track. It doesn't need to be exact but the highest value you record should be close enough to your max HR.

Some further info here:

https://www.brianmac.co.uk/hrm2.htm

squinn2912

Looked back at a couple of interval sessions and in one I hit 187 (according to the Garmin). Would that be right?

adrian522

squinn2912 wrote: »

Looked back at a couple of interval sessions and in one I hit 187 (according to the Garmin). Would that be right?

Do you have HR data from a flat out 5k? You can use 187 for the moment and will probably be close enough.

rooneyjm

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5
....5............47.............32.5
....6............47.............50.0
....7............54.............54.0
....8............49.............55.0
....9............57.............59.0
...10...........50.............51.0

Total.........472............483...

Week 10 of 18. Not a bad week, stuck to the plan. 7 easy Monday, 3x 1 mile intervals @ 3.45 Tuesday, rest Wednesday, 8 mile MP Thursday. Best MP session yet, felt good. Heart rate stayed in the 160’s and there were a few 6.45’s so that’s an improvement. Feeling so good after I was planning extra mileage for the weekend.

Friday, legs felt like lead, 6 mile very easy, Saturday was very humid, legs still heavy, 8.5 miles. Sunday, very warm again, waited until 8.30 to start, 10.5 miles.

There are no rest weeks specified in the plan but that was one really. This week is the first 100k week and the start of the strength sessions (6 x 1mile at MP -10 sec) instead of the speed work.

Diablo Verde

Diablo Verde wrote: »

Time for me to finally have a proper crack at this. Last marathon was in Valencia last year and I had a hard time from about 30kms in. Still managed a PB of 3:06:16 but suffered all the way home. Heading back to Valencia in December. Other PBs are:

5k - 18:11 (2018)
10k - 38:39 (2014)
Half - 1:24:27 (2018)

10k is soft and I’ll be hoping to improve on that in a few weeks. Going to follow the Hanson plan, after using P&D for my last three efforts.

Well I’ve started training for Valencia. Decided to have a go at the South Dublin 10k on Saturday, just to see where I am in terms of fitness. I’ve been running 40-50k/week over the last three or four months, but other than that I really didn’t do myself any favours going into this race.

Conditions were tough but I managed to go around in 38:07 which is a new PB. Happy with that, and have a fair idea about my level of fitness.

Week 1 of the Hansons plan is fairly gentle, so the real work will start from next week on.

squinn2912

Brilliant running congrats on the pb

shotgunmcos

Nice Benchmark for 10k so speed is there. 40-50k is 25-30 miles so that's where you start on the program. Best of luck, be good if you could start a log or report on your progress. I'd follow with interest as I plan to use the Hansons method too (after a few months building the base)

squinn2912

A lot of you guys seem to build for months before going into your programme. Do you tend to run 1 marathon per year? After a spring disaster I’m cutting back to that I think. Into week three of my programme. Each week once the tempo is done I feel much more relaxed

shotgunmcos

squinn2912 wrote: »

A lot of you guys seem to build for months before going into your programme. Do you tend to run 1 marathon per year? After a spring disaster I’m cutting back to that I think. Into week three of my programme. Each week once the tempo is done I feel much more relaxed

Haven't run a marathon in years. Executing a marathon is not just about executing the 12-18 week plan. Most people will get through those plans (assuming they set a realistic one) but its really the foundation you build before the plan that supports it. If you miss a week or 2 due to a niggle, one tends to over think it, worry and maybe rush back thus risking the whole program and carrying damaged body parts into a marathon for a sure to be failed attempt. The foundation gives you confidence that in the greater scheme of a 6 month approach, a week is nothing significant.

What I see around here though is more people moving from marathon cycle to marathon cycle and the shorter races are part of the continuous marathon focus. Yes you could do 2+ in a year and often the next iteration adds a little more challenge or step up/change in program (regardless of whether the original goal was achieved or not). Often it was not the plan that was the problem so I'm not sure why people change that first. I digress.

Obviously for a first marathon (or first one in years), general running volume is the limiting factor so its about building that slowly to establish a base and establish some benchmarks to estimate a realistic marathon goal pace.

If its a case of being in between cycles then it might be good to work on something specific for a couple of months like speed, core, volume, recovery, before jumping onto the next cycle

paul471966

I'm aiming for a sub 3 in dublin this year. 3.10 last year .done a 18 mile long run this week.pace 6.57 per mile.ill be 52 by the marathon.whats my chances of sub 3ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚.no real experience of 10 is or half.but prob under 39 for 10 k .tanks guysðŸ˜ ps nearly forgot .done a 10 miler in 63.30 in april

squinn2912

That 18 sounds fast! What are you doing during the week? You'd need to be getting your recovery in as well. I can get to sub 3 but there are guys who can comment better than me on your programme. If you're able to do that 3 months out then you're well able to hit the sub3 on the day. Good luck!

rooneyjm

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5
....5............47.............32.5
....6............47.............50.0
....7............54.............54.0
....8............49.............55.0
....9............57.............59.0
...10...........50.............51.0
...11...........61.............62.0

Total..........533............544...

Week 11 of 18. First 100k week of the year and start of the strength sessions. Signed up for Mullingar 10 mile ( races not on plan) so had to jig things around s bit.

7 Monday, strength Tuesday 6x1 mile at MP -10 sec, I was closer to -15, 400 recovery’s. Wednesday rest. Moved the long 16mile to Thursday evening. Did 4 miles easy along Dollymount and jumped in the sea after in prep for Saturday.

Mullingar 10 Mile
Plan was to try hold 6.30. Held 6.28 ave, 1.04.47. Well run race, couple of drags but no hills really. I was kind of in no mans land, the fast lads chasing 60 were away and there was a gang doing 7 min pace, so mostly running by myself.
Sunday 12 miles v easy

muloc

What ye reckon for the Dublin 1/2 marathon....5 weeks before the marathon...race it or run it at MP?

healy1835

muloc wrote: »

What ye reckon for the Dublin 1/2 marathon....5 weeks before the marathon...race it or run it at MP?

I'll be racing it anyway. Have always raced my half marathons, can be a nice confidence booster amongst other things.

paddybarry

muloc wrote: »

What ye reckon for the Dublin 1/2 marathon....5 weeks before the marathon...race it or run it at MP?

Ran sub 3 on first attempt in 2014. Only races I ran during training were the rathfarnham 5k and simon 5 miler.

In 2016 I ran the Dublin half in 1.23.xx. Picked up an injury following week. Ran 3.09.xx in marathon itself. Injury did not help but really felt I left sub 3 in that half.

Some lads recover quicker than others. If you have not raced a half that far out before, why risk it? Trust in training.
Good luck
PB

noelearly

muloc wrote: »

What ye reckon for the Dublin 1/2 marathon....5 weeks before the marathon...race it or run it at MP?

I raced Clonmel last year before Berlin and it worked for me got great confidence from it. This year I raced the railway run and flopped before Cork, it screwed up my recovery and I pushed too hard and got an injury. The Injury is only clearing now, 12 weeks out from Frankfurt.

I'm in for Charleville myself so I don't know what I'll do, race it or go at M.P

So to answer your question... I don't know haha

muloc

noelearly wrote: »

I raced Clonmel last year before Berlin and it worked for me got great confidence from it. This year I raced the railway run and flopped before Cork, it screwed up my recovery and I pushed too hard and got an injury. The Injury is only clearing now, 12 weeks out from Frankfurt.

I'm in for Charleville myself so I don't know what I'll do, race it or go at M.P

So to answer your question... I don't know haha

yep I think I'll just see nearer the time...if the training's going to plan and I feel ok I'll race it....would be a good confidence booster if it went well. Thanks!!

Bahanaman

noelearly wrote:

I raced Clonmel last year before Berlin and it worked for me got great confidence from it. This year I raced the railway run and flopped before Cork, it screwed up my recovery and I pushed too hard and got an injury. The Injury is only clearing now, 12 weeks out from Frankfurt.

12 weeks plenty of time to get right for Frankfurt! It's where I got my first sub 3 after a few years trying. Did little or no racing before it as I was worried about overdoing it and picking up an injury. I was lucky that the training went great in the lead up. So that approach work for me that time anyway.

squinn2912

Did any of you guys do Rock n Roll yesterday? I came in on 1:23:13 very happy with it it’s a new PB. Course is tough in places but a great event!

healy1835

squinn2912 wrote: »

Did any of you guys do Rock n Roll yesterday? I came in on 1:23:13 very happy with it it’s a new PB. Course is tough in places but a great event!

No too early in the block for me anyway. Congrats on the PB, from what I've been reading I would say you're in a pretty small minority who got a PB on that course

rooneyjm

Hanson Method
Week— Prescribed-Completed
_______(Miles)____(Miles)
....1............26.............46.5
....2............41.............47.0
....3............46.............51.5
....4............45.............36.5
....5............47.............32.5
....6............47.............50.0
....7............54.............54.0
....8............49.............55.0
....9............57.............59.0
...10...........50.............51.0
...11...........61.............62.0
...12...........55.............12.5
...13...........62.............63.0

Total..........650............619.5..

Week 12 & 13 of 18. One bad one good. Went on holiday after the Mullingar 10, did 7 on Monday before we went. Brought the gear with me but jasus it was hot, 38-40C all week. Only managed one run and a bit of swimming.

Came back to a respectable 20C and completed the week more or less as planned. Strength session was 3x2 mile at MP -10 sec which was ok. Tempo was 9 mile @MP felt tough and was a few sec off the pace. Sunday did 16mile @ 7.30 which felt good compared to the MP session. 102+ km for the week. 5 weeks to go.

rooneyjm

Any seasoned sub 3ers an opinion on running a hard 10 mile this Sunday, Kilcock 10 is on. Is it too close to Berlin? Did Mullingar 10 @ 6.30 a few weeks back and felt ok after. Have to do 10 mile at MP over the weekend anyway.

OOnegative

rooneyjm wrote: »

Any seasoned sub 3ers an opinion on running a hard 10 mile this Sunday, Kilcock 10 is on. Is it too close to Berlin? Did Mullingar 10 @ 6.30 a few weeks back and felt ok after. Have to do 10 mile at MP over the weekend anyway.

Four weeks out i’d say do it at MP, bit close for my liking if i’m honest. But I ain’t a seasoned sub 3er so feel free to ignore.

busterjones

Some advise please... with just over 10 weeks to go to DCM and the last 3 weeks training missed!

Have done approx. 50 miles average from mid Jan to mid June, then ran a 20 miler @ 6:45 to see how I was doing before kicking in to the P&D 70 - 85 mile plan - 18 week.

The first 4 weeks went well and hit everything as planned but then I went away on holidays with the family and with 2 young kids the training plan went out the window. In these 3 weeks all I managed was the following - and tended to push the pace on basically all runs to some how compensate for much reduced miles:
18@ 6:45
13@6:55
17@6:54
19@6:43
6@6:18
20@6:59

Have to say legs felt good on each of these runs due to some rest with reduced mileage but confidence wise - although the last few miles on the 20 miler were tougher than I'd have liked and I'm struggling a little feeling that I've missed 3 weeks of big mileage (according to the plan) and having put on some weight (due to not running and eating too much when on hols (and not running!)).

Q. Your opinions/ recommendations please - should I just pick up the plan from this point to the end - or adjust it slightly to compensate for what I've missed?

Also - its a more general question - but I tend to run most of my runs faster than guided by the plan e.g. slowest I'd usually do long runs is 7:30 per mile - I find it more difficult to go slower (legs feel heavier) - am I doing 'damage' to my sub 3 chances or do you think this pace (max. 7:30 average for e.g. 20/ 22/ 24 is ok?

Thanks for any guidance and confidence boosting!

OOnegative

busterjones wrote: »

Some advise please... with just over 10 weeks to go to DCM and the last 3 weeks training missed!

Have done approx. 50 miles average from mid Jan to mid June, then ran a 20 miler @ 6:45 to see how I was doing before kicking in to the P&D 70 - 85 mile plan - 18 week.

The first 4 weeks went well and hit everything as planned but then I went away on holidays with the family and with 2 young kids the training plan went out the window. In these 3 weeks all I managed was the following - and tended to push the pace on basically all runs to some how compensate for much reduced miles:
18@ 6:45
13@6:55
17@6:54
19@6:43
6@6:18
20@6:59

Have to say legs felt good on each of these runs due to some rest with reduced mileage but confidence wise - although the last few miles on the 20 miler were tougher than I'd have liked and I'm struggling a little feeling that I've missed 3 weeks of big mileage (according to the plan) and having put on some weight (due to not running and eating too much when on hols (and not running!)).

Q. Your opinions/ recommendations please - should I just pick up the plan from this point to the end - or adjust it slightly to compensate for what I've missed?

Also - its a more general question - but I tend to run most of my runs faster than guided by the plan e.g. slowest I'd usually do long runs is 7:30 per mile - I find it more difficult to go slower (legs feel heavier) - am I doing 'damage' to my sub 3 chances or do you think this pace (max. 7:30 average for e.g. 20/ 22/ 24 is ok?

Thanks for any guidance and confidence boosting!

Is sub 3 the goal? Those long runs are way to fast if they are. If you can run 19@6.43 pace comfortably in training your in much better shape than sub 3.

AuldManKing

busterjones wrote: »

Some advise please... with just over 10 weeks to go to DCM and the last 3 weeks training missed!

Have done approx. 50 miles average from mid Jan to mid June, then ran a 20 miler @ 6:45 to see how I was doing before kicking in to the P&D 70 - 85 mile plan - 18 week.

The first 4 weeks went well and hit everything as planned but then I went away on holidays with the family and with 2 young kids the training plan went out the window. In these 3 weeks all I managed was the following - and tended to push the pace on basically all runs to some how compensate for much reduced miles:
18@ 6:45
13@6:55
17@6:54
19@6:43
6@6:18
20@6:59

Have to say legs felt good on each of these runs due to some rest with reduced mileage but confidence wise - although the last few miles on the 20 miler were tougher than I'd have liked and I'm struggling a little feeling that I've missed 3 weeks of big mileage (according to the plan) and having put on some weight (due to not running and eating too much when on hols (and not running!)).

Q. Your opinions/ recommendations please - should I just pick up the plan from this point to the end - or adjust it slightly to compensate for what I've missed?

Also - its a more general question - but I tend to run most of my runs faster than guided by the plan e.g. slowest I'd usually do long runs is 7:30 per mile - I find it more difficult to go slower (legs feel heavier) - am I doing 'damage' to my sub 3 chances or do you think this pace (max. 7:30 average for e.g. 20/ 22/ 24 is ok?

Thanks for any guidance and confidence boosting!

Right now I think you could run a sub 3 in race conditions, never mind in 10 weeks.
Those 17m+ runs at 'stupid' pace are a bit OTT (IMO) - unless you are going for a much faster time.

If you are following the plan, then stick to it! P&D advocate a 20% MP / 10% MP guide for the long runs - that would indicate for a sub 3 starting at 8:10 pace and working down to 7:20's.

Have you any recent races that may indicate a faster time than 2:59.

For your specific questions on how to proceed with the plan, my advice is to pick it up where you left off as you need to build the mileage and the sessions.

In about 3-4 weeks maybe skip a week and similar in a further 2 weeks to compensate for where you are on the plan.
Jumping into a higher week may lead to injury as you haven't build the mileage.

However - I think sub 3 will be easy - maybe set a more realistic target?

busterjones

Sorry, should have said - yes, goal is sub 3 - PB is 3:11 in 2016

busterjones

Wouldn't say any of those runs were comfortable with last few miles always hard.

I've done 3 marathons to date:

1. Connemara in 2012 3:58 - goal was just to finish
2. DCM in 2015 3:31 - limited training (quality and quantity) and actually didn't have a real goal
3. DCM in 2016 3:11 - better prep than previous one but never did more than 40 miles a week and had no idea of what pace I could do on the day and had no real goal.

For all of the above, I really struggled in the last 6 miles (from drag in Clonskeagh onwards) and guess that still haunts me a little.

I think on race day I could get to 20 miles at at least 6:45 average but worry that if I haven't actually done it already I don't know that I won't blow up at that point - and I know emulating it (e.g. 22/24 at MP) in advance could harm chances overall.

Thanks for your advice - I'll look at the plan and see if I can adjust as suggested i.e. pick up and drop a week every couple of weeks where they look to repeat.

I haven't run any races but have signed up for the Frank Duffy 10 mile and the Dublin Half Marathon... ok to really push those as I guess they've been timed with the DCM in mind?

OOnegative

busterjones wrote: »

Wouldn't say any of those runs were comfortable with last few miles always hard.

I've done 3 marathons to date:

1. Connemara in 2012 3:58 - goal was just to finish
2. DCM in 2015 3:31 - limited training (quality and quantity) and actually didn't have a real goal
3. DCM in 2016 3:11 - better prep than previous one but never did more than 40 miles a week and had no idea of what pace I could do on the day and had no real goal.

For all of the above, I really struggled in the last 6 miles (from drag in Clonskeagh onwards) and guess that still haunts me a little.

I think on race day I could get to 20 miles at at least 6:45 average but worry that if I haven't actually done it already I don't know that I won't blow up at that point - and I know emulating it (e.g. 22/24 at MP) in advance could harm chances overall.

Thanks for your advice - I'll look at the plan and see if I can adjust as suggested i.e. pick up and drop a week every couple of weeks where they look to repeat.

I haven't run any races but have signed up for the Frank Duffy 10 mile and the Dublin Half Marathon... ok to really push those as I guess they've been timed with the DCM in mind?

Trying to emulate it as you say 22/24 MP will harm your chances overall not could. I’m following the PD 55/70 plan and have stuck to what is advised regarding pace, I think if you stick to what your doing you risk burnout or leaving your marathon result on one of your training runs.

Regarding the HM and Frank Duffy they are scheduled with DCM in mind, race them to give youself a better idea what your goal pace should be for DCM.

Duanington

rooneyjm wrote: »

Any seasoned sub 3ers an opinion on running a hard 10 mile this Sunday, Kilcock 10 is on. Is it too close to Berlin? Did Mullingar 10 @ 6.30 a few weeks back and felt ok after. Have to do 10 mile at MP over the weekend anyway.

Not sure of how training has gone up to this point for you but personally, I'm a fan of 10 mile races leading up to the big day ( despite never racing them very well!), I think 4 weeks is enough so long as you factor in some sensible easy days afterwards.

10 miles is a good distance to race, enough to really give your endurance a good rattle but not quite long enough to leave you wiped out afterwards.