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Dublin - BusConnects

marno21

Two weeks after a similar publication for Metrolink, the NTA have published a tender for design of 16 Core Bus Corridors for the BusConnect project:

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=127159&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

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cgcsb

tom1ie wrote: »

What infrastructure is terenure getting? Are they not just making it one way or some such craziness? Genuine question.

In Terenure village yes I think it'll just be one way, I was referring to the road widening in the South West of the City in general.

LionelNashe

The North Circular near the Phoenix Park isn't a very wide road. I don't think a car could pass a cyclist if there was another car oncoming, in spots. I think there are some stretches between St Peters Church and the park where pedestrians on one side of the street would have trouble passing each other because of the old trees on the footpaths. I'd be in favour of biting the bullet and getting rid of the trees and a meter of garden on each side unless somebody has a very creative solution that can avoid it.

cgcsb

I think the only way to avoid the typical 1km queing of 46a buses from St Peter's Church is a road widening scheme. Those trees are lovely but as it is their roots have the footpaths and garden walls destroyed. I'd be in favour of getting rid, but prepare yourself for an An Taisce led Jihad and they'll probably have real world support also:

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3532728,-6.2964208,3a,75y,207.58h,56.51t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1s6pOfq6H_MqxKxGL8OpIKxA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D6pOfq6H_MqxKxGL8OpIKxA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D99.34902%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100

Even with road widening there's no room when you get to St Peter's Church, Cars will have to divert via monk place.

Dardania

Could the function of the o route be in any way feasibly met by being underground tram style - or is it a practical impossibility to construct it? It would only have to have the stops where it intersects with each bus route?

cgcsb

Dardania wrote: »

Could the function of the o route be in any way feasibly met by being underground tram style - or is it a practical impossibility to construct it? It would only have to have the stops where it intersects with each bus route?

Possibly but right now it's going to be operated by a single deck bus. lets see how that works out

Dardania

tom1ie wrote: »

LXFlyer wrote: »

That was the original plan. As of now BRT has been canned.

Hmmm. Is it though. It clearly states there are eleven radial bus routes in ADDITION to three bus rapid transit routes (brt). I cant see any mention of what brt routes they are on about.
It’s a bit confusing.

I had a good read of the documentation over the weekend, with a view to submitting an observation via the consultation form. This will be one of the points I too want to make - the fact that there are the spine (A, B, C etc.) in a ddition to the radials (like the 7) is a bit confusing. We have two terms for the 1 basic concept. Why not just name the radials like the spines with letters of the alphabet. Or number the spines like the radials. I can't help but feel that if there are these radials, it will detract riders from the spines.
Also, to the point they make in chapter 7 I think, about how they sized the cycle length for the spines at 240 minutes average - it made sense - that was the optimum time for a run, allowing for traffic, and getting back on track after an interruption. Does that mean the radials don't meet that criteria, and so are sub-optimal?
The route naming and numbering could still be a little tidied up - ideally to not clash with Bus Eireann in my opinion. It's a small country - surely we can aspire to not duplicate numbers across different services.

Also, I'm a bit concerned that Bus Eireann in a general sense isn't co-ordianted with. I wonder if they considered the traffic on the quays against the scheduled Bus Eireann services when deciding what to route along the quays? And also, the G spine from Bullyfermot doesn't intersect with Bus Aras at all (whereas the other spines get roughly close...) A missed opportunity.

Qrt

Dardania wrote: »

And also, the G spine from Bullyfermot doesn't intersect with Bus Aras at all (whereas the other spines get roughly close...) A missed opportunity.

To be fair, almost the entirety of the plan is based on promoting changing buses. Ballyer will survive.

Dardania

Qrt wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

And also, the G spine from Bullyfermot doesn't intersect with Bus Aras at all (whereas the other spines get roughly close...) A missed opportunity.

To be fair, almost the entirety of the plan is based on promoting changing buses. Ballyer will survive.

Yeah it probably will. I am thinking of the optimal situation where people transferring from G to Bus Eireann can do so in one change rather than 2.

On another topic, I read this article lately about how China is going all in on electric buses: https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/4/17/17239368/china-investment-solar-electric-buses-cost

What do people think - will BusConnects support Electric Buses? Is this where Dublin should go? What would be needed to support it - routes that allow time for charging?

karma_coma

Doubt electrifying the bus routes in Busconnects is on the cards. I'd support a move towards battery electric buses for cleaner urban air quality. Lived with OHLE buses in San Francisco and they were always problematic with breakdowns. Plus the wiring looks atrocious.

CatInABox

I'm only reposting what others have said, and I'm no expert in this at all, I'm sure they'll pop in and correct me if I'm wrong.

NTA are currently looking at Hybrid buses right now, and are open to single decker battery buses.

Double Decker battery buses aren't really viable right now, but probably will be in ten years or so.

As Dublin mainly uses Double Decker buses, we'd really need to be replacing like with like.

So, all in all, it won't happen as part of BusConnects, and they actually need to start making Double Decker battery buses in volume, but it will happen over time, as the older fleet buses get replaced.

Dardania

CatInABox wrote: »

I'm only reposting what others have said, and I'm no expert in this at all, I'm sure they'll pop in and correct me if I'm wrong.

NTA are currently looking at Hybrid buses right now, and are open to single decker battery buses.

Double Decker battery buses aren't really viable right now, but probably will be in ten years or so.

As Dublin mainly uses Double Decker buses, we'd really need to be replacing like with like.

So, all in all, it won't happen as part of BusConnects, and they actually need to start making Double Decker battery buses in volume, but it will happen over time, as the older fleet buses get replaced.

Fair point. Interestingly, a couple of the BusConnects routes would need to be single decker due to restrictions on the route (I have a feeling the DART bridge on Macken street was driving the O orbital route was one?).
With the replacing like for like business...there might an argument that if the buses run more frequently, they don't need to be automatically as capacious as they are presently. A similar analogy to Emirates airline running two 777s per day to a destination rather than one A380 - more frequent and overall great capacity.

CatInABox

Dardania wrote: »

Fair point. Interestingly, a couple of the BusConnects routes would need to be single decker due to restrictions on the route (I have a feeling the DART bridge on Macken street was driving the O orbital route was one?).
With the replacing like for like business...there might an argument that if the buses run more frequently, they don't need to be automatically as capacious as they are presently. A similar analogy to Emirates airline running two 777s per day to a destination rather than one A380 - more frequent and overall great capacity.

Yes, the O route is to be single decker, 28 seats with increased standing/wheelchair room. Those could be battery buses straight away, but I have a feeling that the NTA is a pretty conservative organisation, and will probably wait for such buses to be tested more in the real world by other cities/countries. There might also be an issue with battery capacity on an orbital route such as the O, but I don't know the current capacity/distance they can travel.

Stephen15

I suggested it before but would the O route not be a good scope for bendy buses if the proper infrastructure was put in place it could even be BRT.

Dardania

Stephen15 wrote: »

I suggested it before but would the O route not be a good scope for bendy buses if the proper infrastructure was put in place it could even be BRT.

It depends on the needed capacity per bus. If it's truly high frequency, maybe bendy buses aren't needed, and conventional / simpler single decks would suffice.
BusConnects is all about frequency to deliver capacity, not slower higher capacity. BRT might be advantageous if the route permits it, otherwise a bit of agility in traffic might be better to deliver the frequency

Sam Russell

I saw two single deckers today on the N11 near Stillorgan. They were GA buses under training.

The blue livery look awful - very dark and makes the bus invisible. Needs light relief - maybe a splash of yellow.

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

I saw two single deckers today on the N11 near Stillorgan. They were GA buses under training.

The blue livery look awful - very dark and makes the bus invisible. Needs light relief - maybe a splash of yellow.

Were they 03 Mercedes Citaros which are dark purple or 182 Wrightbus Streetlites which are light blue? Those Mercedes Citaros are only for training and won't be going into public service.

Sam Russell

Stephen15 wrote: »

Were they 03 Mercedes Citaros which are dark purple or 182 Wrightbus Streetlites which are light blue? Those Mercedes Citaros are only for training and won't be going into public service.

They had Go Ahead written on them - with an 'L' plate on the back. That is all I know.

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

They had Go Ahead written on them - with an 'L' plate on the back. That is all I know.

Did they look like this?

Sam Russell

Stephen15 wrote: »

Did they look like this?

No. Not a bit.

Stephen15

Sam Russell wrote: »

No. Not a bit.

Those must be the Citaros which were bought in second hand from the UK. They are just for training and won't be used in service. Something like the bus on the left here in the picture I take it?

Peregrine

Yeah, the Mercs are in for Go Ahead driver training only and their livery has nothing to do with the NTA.

Any NTA single deckers will be Wright Streetlites with a lighter blue livery (the first picture Stephen posted).

Sam Russell

Stephen15 wrote: »

Those must be the Citaros which were bought in second hand from the UK. They are just for training and won't be used in service. Something like the bus on the left here in the picture I take it?

Yes, that looks like it (them - there were two of them).

Horrible livery.

roadmaster

I seen the Nass to Blanch bus had Route 139 painted on it. I know not strictly bus connects but by painting the Number on the bus and not just having it digital does this not leave the buses a bit inflexible If you need for some reason to move buses around.

Stephen15

roadmaster wrote: »

I seen the Nass to Blanch bus had Route 139 painted on it. I know not strictly bus connects but by painting the Number on the bus and not just having it digital does this not leave the buses a bit inflexible If you need for some reason to move buses around.

That's because Kavanaghs only have 2 or 3 buses that only operate on that route perhaps they do hire outs for them aswell. Back in the Cityswift in the 90's days the number was printed outside the bus eg. "27 Malahide Road Flyer" but those buses would regularly end up on other routes.

I have also seen BE buses with route branding on other routes like for example the buses with the Navan Express branding on other routes.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Did they look like this?

I have to say, the new livery looks great on that single decker, though it seems to be missing something on the lower front by the logo, can't put my finger on it, might just be the picture and angle.

Overall I'm really liking what I'm seeing in pictures of these, I'm looking forward to seeing them in person.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

I have to say, the new livery looks great on that single decker, though it seems to be missing something on the lower front by the logo, can't put my finger on it, might just be the picture and angle.

Overall I'm really liking what I'm seeing in pictures of these, I'm looking forward to seeing them in person.

They do look well alright. They look bigger than the Streetlites DB recently bought for the 44b, I wonder are they 28 seater which the NBRU were scaremongering about. I'm a little bit disappointed that they don't have middle doors. In London all the buses apart from a small few have dual doors including most single deckers but I guess it's not a huge deal.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

They do look well alright. They look bigger than the Streetlites DB recently bought for the 44b, I wonder are they 28 seater which the NBRU were scaremongering about. I'm a little bit disappointed that they don't have middle doors. In London all the buses apart from a small few have dual doors including most single deckers but I guess it's not a huge deal.

The smallest Streetlite that Wright produce is an 8.8m vehicle with 33 seats as standard. They do however offer a wheel forward version with 28 seats to TFL specification.

They offer a range of lengths up to 11.5m that can seat up to 45.

Stephen15

devnull wrote: »

The smallest Streetlite that Wright produce is an 8.8m vehicle with 33 seats as standard. They do however offer a wheel forward version with 28 seats to TFL specification.

They offer a range of lengths up to 11.5m that can seat up to 45.

So the NBRUs scaremongering was only scaremongering and not the "truth" which they claimed.

Kevtherev1

Another bus connects article. Calls for a bus route to connect the Red and Green Luas Lines with a orbital route between Red Cow- M50-- Carrickmines

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-connects-plan-missing-orbital-link-between-luas-lines-1.3581340

Heartbreak Hank

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

Another bus connects article. Calls for a bus route to connect the Red and Green Luas Lines with a orbital route between Red Cow- M50-- Carrickmines

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/bus-connects-plan-missing-orbital-link-between-luas-lines-1.3581340

Who is the "Mr. Mitchell" that is quoted in the article? No introduction given to him.