Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018 pt3

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't think Lingard is a fair comparison actually.

Lingard came through the ranks and went out on loan, he had only one senior appearance in his first 4 years at the club apparently.

Then when he was promoted to the first team squad he played 40, 42, and 48 games over the next 3 seasons, and I would argue he has reached and maintained a certain consistent level of performance over that time.

Lingard came into the squad, worked hard and earned his spot as a regular. He is the polar opposite of Shaw who has been in the United first team squad for 4 years and 2 managers and not once put in a consistent run of performances.

In my original post I said it wasn't exactly a fair comparison. But just highlighted how so many people (the majority if I'm honest) wanted rid of him. Surplus to requirements, then he upped the effort, won a spot and has been a key part.

Like I said not like for like, but it has changed how much time I have since been willing to give young players.

For me the issue at this point is beyond whether anyone think there is a potential player in Shaw - I was one of the most vocal on here for giving him game time.

The issue, for me, is that Young is our first choice left back - and that is not a good situation for us. I strongly feel we need a talented, left footed, left back who can and will stretch the play and attack the wide areas. We need someone natural out there who can overlap and force the full backs/wingers to cover them wide. Young doesn't do that.

Maybe Shaw could, i thought he could but what i think doesn't matter.

It is clear Jose does not like Shaw - he doesn't play him and when he does he is still just a target for digs. If Shaw is backup left back to Young this season, it will go the exact same as last season - Young will play 99% of the matches and we will have problems with width and attacking on the left side. Shaw will be out of contract next summer and leave on a free cause he doesn't get games for United and needs to move on. United will then need to sign at least one, if not two, left backs next summer.

Trigger

Jose on Fred..

https://twitter.com/sistoney67/status/1009783603625185280?s=21

AidoEirE

Young gets some bashing on here whenever the Shaw debate is brought up. In my opinion Young hasnt even been the worst player in our back line for the past two seasons. Played against a in form Salah and had him in his pocket for 90 minutes, only player we have that cross a ball from a wide back position compared to the other side where we all pull our hair out with Valencias non exisitent crossing of the ball.

Of course id like a new LB to come in, but Shaw has had 4 years to claim that spot and hasnt done it. Fair enough the leg break but thats still 2 seasons to make an impression and just hasnt done it, being unfit, not determined enough or whatever but just hasnt progressed.

If Shaw showed the same drive and determination that Young shows, who lets not forget was previously just a squad player and the forgotten man, he'd already be in the starting 11 and we wouldnt be having this debate again.

If we dont sign a new LB, jose will make next season his last to show he wants the spot and if he doesnt do it lets not point the finger at Young when the real blame is at Shaw

AidoEirE wrote: »

If Shaw showed the same drive and determination that Young shows, who lets not forget was previously just a squad player and the forgotten man, he'd already be in the starting 11 and we wouldnt be having this debate again.

If we dont sign a new LB, jose will make next season his last to show he wants the spot and if he doesnt do it lets not point the finger at Young when the real blame is at Shaw

But no one is blaming Young for Shaw not getting in the team.

Lord TSC

If Jose chooses not to sign a new LB, and we have another season like this, its going to be pointed towards as a major case against his position at the club imo.

I'm still confident that either a new LB will be brought in, OR a new top level attacker to justify going with Young/Shaw for one more season.

Lord TSC wrote: »

If Jose chooses not to sign a new LB, and we have another season like this, its going to be pointed towards as a major case against his position at the club imo.

I'm still confident that either a new LB will be brought in, OR a new top level attacker to justify going with Young/Shaw for one more season.

But what drives the choice?

Is it budget issues - does Jose simply feel it is more important to buy in other areas than left back - in that he sees t4he issue but can't afford to address it? Or is it he has looked at the performance of our full backs over the last two seasons and thought: "Thats fine - no need for immediate change there".

I don't see what attacker we'd be getting to justify sticking with them. Surely if we sign an attacker it would be the right side - so how would that justify Young/Shaw? I mean surely we aren't going to sign a forward player that competes with Sanchez and Rashford (and currently Martial) for the left side spot. SURELY!?

AidoEirE

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But no one is blaming Young for Shaw not getting in the team.

True but people tend to give shaw the benefit of the doubt when he hasnt done much to deserve it.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But what drives the choice?

Is it budget issues - does Jose simply feel it is more important to buy in other areas than left back - in that he sees t4he issue but can't afford to address it? Or is it he has looked at the performance of our full backs over the last two seasons and thought: "Thats fine - no need for immediate change there".

I don't see what attacker we'd be getting to justify sticking with them. Surely if we sign an attacker it would be the right side - so how would that justify Young/Shaw? I mean surely we aren't going to sign a forward player that competes with Sanchez and Rashford (and currently Martial) for the left side spot. SURELY!?

Jose has felt that pretty much the entire middle spine of the team has needed replacement which says a lot about he squad he felt he inherited.

I don't get the hate for Valencia or Young, I really don't. I am not saying we cant do better, but I think the deficiencies in these areas have been blown out of proportion. Perhaps Jose still thinks Shaw needs to mature a bit more, he is only 22 afterall.

If united had to choose between a top central defender or a top full back I would go for central defender all day long.

Lord TSC

Mitch Connor wrote: »

But what drives the choice?

Is it budget issues - does Jose simply feel it is more important to buy in other areas than left back - in that he sees t4he issue but can't afford to address it? Or is it he has looked at the performance of our full backs over the last two seasons and thought: "Thats fine - no need for immediate change there".

I don't see what attacker we'd be getting to justify sticking with them. Surely if we sign an attacker it would be the right side - so how would that justify Young/Shaw? I mean surely we aren't going to sign a forward player that competes with Sanchez and Rashford (and currently Martial) for the left side spot. SURELY!?

Obviously all hypothetical here;

I don't think Jose is happy with the idea of Young/Shaw going into the new season, at least based on his comments and treatment of Shaw the year gone.

I'd imagine that he's got his own priority list. Maybe he feels that while Young/Shaw isn't ideal, it's better than the Smalling/Jones/Rojo/Bailly foursome we have in CB.

He hasn't got an unlimited budget. So say he believes that right now, there's four problem areas.....

LB, CB, RW and Striker.

Going on reports, it feels like the two priorities fro Jose are CB and striker.

I'm putting striker there because we were being linked with Manduzikic and Arnautovic strongly, and the reports were he feels (rightly imo) that when Lukaku can't play, we don't have a like for like replacement. We have players who can fill in but in a different role altogether.

Meanwhile, the links to Toby have been strong, and there's been links to other CBs to; Lingelet and Skriniar.

As far as LB goes, we have Castles saying we want Sandro.

I'd say that, based on what I've read, the priorities going into the summer were....

Center Back
Center Mid - Fred
Right Back - Dalot
Striker
LB
RW

I think he won't sign a player for the sake of it. He wants a drastic improvement on what we have. At which point, the budget comes into play. I reckon (guess work) he wants a new center back as the number one priority. New striker after that. And the a LB, based on what money we have left.

I said about the attacker because he might feel it's more important to invest into a top level RW player than it is a LB player. The issues with Young and Valencia is their chance creation going forward. A new RW, along with Fred, helps fix that issue elsewhere, and might be seen (by Jose) as a better way of spending money.

The other cravat is that its very obvious the journalists who usually flame on Muppet mode are very quite at the moment. No coincidence; they don't need to be peddling bs stories since the WC is filling their column inches. I'd be utterly confident deals are being discussed and negotiated, and we'll continue to see signings over the next two-three weeks.

Plus then, there's the Martial situation - We will need to replace him if he goes. So we will need to be focusing on a top level attacker, at which point we may as well fix the RW properly.

[Deleted User]

Shaw is still only 22, 23 next month.

A leg break like he had is not easy to recover from, especially not getting regular game time. He's shown enough in his appearances to see that he can make a big difference to how the team play and if he gets himself in shape this pre season there's no reason he shouldn't be pushing on imo. I think Jose is willing to give him that much too.

Lord TSC

Liam O wrote: »

Shaw is still only 22, 23 next month.

A leg break like he had is not easy to recover from, especially not getting regular game time. He's shown enough in his appearances to see that he can make a big difference to how the team play and if he gets himself in shape this pre season there's no reason he shouldn't be pushing on imo. I think Jose is willing to give him that much too.

I'd love to know what makes people think that when he hasn't done that for the last three years, he might in year 4.....

S.M.B.

We are probably not going to get much cash for Shaw if we move him on so I'm not too bothered with him sticking around.

I would not be devastated if we didn't bring in a high profile senior LB this summer as long as we spend our budget elsewhere.

Lord TSC wrote: »

I'd love to know what makes people think that when he hasn't done that for the last three years, he might in year 4.....

Exactly - we had all the stories last summer and up to christmas that he was a changed man and the staff were so impressed.

We then so utterly limited game time and criticism of everything he did when he did play. Apart from that weird time Jose said he was the best full in the league and then immediately dropped him.

I just don't see where people are thinking Shaw is going to gain trust from Jose from.

The only reason I can see for him not being sold is Jose can't allocate funds to replace him (as spelt out by yourself, above). Shaw staying is a money issue, not a 'Jose wants to give him one more chance' thing.

If Shaw is still at United in September, he will be leaving on a free transfer next summer. I'd see that is near fact.

If we start next season with valencia and young as full backs we will do well to finish in top 2

fatherted1969

You can only have potential early in your career, after that it's just lazy a and unprofessional work ethic which is exactly what Shaw has. I'm no fan of Mourinho but he's right here. At some point there has to be an expectation that a decemt performance and fitness is what Mourinho expects from Shaw in training and games. Its not to be unfortunately. Get rid!

fatherted1969 wrote: »

You can only have potential early in your career, after that it's just lazy a and unprofessional work ethic which is exactly what Shaw has. I'm no fan of Mourinho but he's right here. At some point there has to be an expectation that a decemt performance and fitness is what Mourinho expects from Shaw in training and games. Its not to be unfortunately. Get rid!

Shaw is still only 22.

When he played when young was suspended he won 2 or 3 out of 4 motm awards and then dropped. Mourinho clearly does not like him.

Sell him and get a good cheap replacement

bangkok wrote: »

Shaw is still only 22.

When he played when young was suspended he won 2 or 3 out of 4 motm awards and then dropped. Mourinho clearly does not like him.

Sell him and get a good cheap replacement

Good and cheap is tough - I would say good enough for what we need and cheap would prove near impossible for United.

Maybe Teirney at about 25million? More likely a bigger name like Sandro at 50+million.

On Shaw and his contract, when we extended it this year (or took the year option at least) talk was they had seen an improvement in him.

Now it either is they actually have and José is coming around to playing him more, or in order to sell him off this or next window.

Going into stats (won't mean anything but look it's season break) between the start of the season in August to December Shaw played 7 times in 30 games for us. Since the turn of the year and the extension being taken he played 12 times in 25 games. Not a major improvement but one nonetheless.

What is also of note is the calibre of opposition we are playing when José chooses to use him. No disrespect to the teams but it was never against top opposition it was the likes of Bristol, Watford, Everton, Stoke, Brighton, West Ham etc.

To be it shows that José doesn't trust him against top teams, doesn't even give him a run out towards the end. It will be an interesting one to watch out for. I always wonder too if they had already had a bit of sour relationship with Chelsea failing to sign him from Southampton. I remember not only the price was a lot but apparently high wage demands, to which José responding saying it would be crazy to pay them to a teenager and upset the rest of the team etc.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Good and cheap is tough - I would say good enough for what we need and cheap would prove near impossible for United.

Maybe Teirney at about 25million? More likely a bigger name like Sandro at 50+million.

Tierney no more than 10-12.

Wouldnt like us to spend 50m on sandro who wasnt even that good this season

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Good and cheap is tough - I would say good enough for what we need and cheap would prove near impossible for United.

Maybe Teirney at about 25million? More likely a bigger name like Sandro at 50+million.

Absolutely love Tierney but Celtic would be holding onto him any means possible. He recently signed a contract keeping him at Celtic until 2023. The man lives and breathes Celtic and is quick becoming a household name.

We discussed the possibility of him during last window and would love him at United, he has the right attitude it would appear to fight for a place, but at the same time I think for his career at 21 the best option would be to stay another season at Celtic improving.

Would probably drive price up even more if he has another CL campaign to advertise himself!

fatherted1969

bangkok wrote: »

Shaw is still only 22.

When he played when young was suspended he won 2 or 3 out of 4 motm awards and then dropped. Mourinho clearly does not like him.

Sell him and get a good cheap replacement

That's why I worded it like that. Lingard was only starting to establish himself in the team at 24. Shaw was already establishedas one of the top LB in the country at 18. Has really regressed since then even taking into account the leg break

S.M.B.

bangkok wrote: »

Shaw is still only 22.

When he played when young was suspended he won 2 or 3 out of 4 motm awards and then dropped. Mourinho clearly does not like him.

Sell him and get a good cheap replacement

When was this? Because I have zero recollection of Shaw putting in an above average performance let alone 3 motm awards in 4 games.

bucketybuck

Drumpot wrote: »

I don't get the hate for Valencia or Young, I really don't. I am not saying we cant do better, but I think the deficiencies in these areas have been blown out of proportion.

I think they aren't emphasised enough to be honest, I really do think they are a severe limiting factor on our attacking structures, especially on the right hand side.

I could handle another year of Young but it really worries me that we seem to be continuing with Valencia.

bucketybuck

S.M.B. wrote: »

When was this? Because I have zero recollection of Shaw putting in an above average performance let alone 3 motm awards in 4 games.

My thoughts exactly, though I wouldn't have bothered responding myself.

Shaw came in and at best did a solid job. He didn't excel, comments at the time were more along the lines of, "Shaw did ok, hopefully this is the start of a run in the team for him".

And thats the games he actually did ok in, we won't mention the appearances were he did poorly or just looked out of shape.

yabadabado

Leg break or not I think it's fairly obvious Jose doesn't rate/trust Shaw.
In that case a LB is needed because I can't ever see Shaw getting a run of say 10 games to make LB his own.Jose has had 2 years with him and he no closer to getting to be first choice,time to move on.

S.M.B. wrote: »

When was this? Because I have zero recollection of Shaw putting in an above average performance let alone 3 motm awards in 4 games.

bucketybuck wrote: »

My thoughts exactly, though I wouldn't have bothered responding myself.

Shaw came in and at best did a solid job. He didn't excel, comments at the time were more along the lines of, "Shaw did ok, hopefully this is the start of a run in the team for him".

And thats the games he actually did ok in, we won't mention the appearances were he did poorly or just looked out of shape.

Luke Shaw won the MotM award against Bournemouth, I also think he won the one before against CSKA Moscow (although this may be split with some giving it to Rashford). Either way he was very impressive and after those two games a raft of papers were running articles just about fan's reactions on social media to how well he was playing.

Not sure where the potential 3rd MotM came from but wouldn't surprise me. He did have a passage where he played extremely well and many had thought he was beginning to show his worth.