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Brexit discussion thread III

ancapailldorcha

This thread is for discussing the departure of the UK from the EU. I will move some posts over shortly.

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Dymo

An Claidheamh wrote: »

I know we're repeating ourselves on here but here is an example of the class of individual that spreads propaganda in Britain to the great British unwashed and believes they can still have an empire.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/974938/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Christopher-Chope-European-Union-Theresa-May-negotiations-latest

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/15/tory-mp-christopher-chope-blocks-progress-of-upskirting-bill

But that's exactly what a lot of Joe Public in the UK thinks, look at the comments section it's rule britanna at all costs.

I wish May was toppled and Mogg or BoJo took over because we are never going to hear the end of this moaning until one of there own get to run the show.

briany

An Claidheamh wrote: »

I know we're repeating ourselves on here but here is an example of the class of individual that spreads propaganda in Britain to the great British unwashed and believes they can still have an empire.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/974938/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Christopher-Chope-European-Union-Theresa-May-negotiations-latest

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/15/tory-mp-christopher-chope-blocks-progress-of-upskirting-bill

I've never really heard of more centrist Leave supporters talking about the British Empire as a reason for their vote, only a few ignorant wing nuts and those people are not for turning or reasoning with. But when some Remain supporters use this empire talk as a dismissal of Leave, I think centrist Leave supporters hear it and find it a highly reductionist and insulting appraisal of their concerns and it does absolutely nothing to close the current divide among the UK electorate.

I still can't believe that terms like 'remoaners' and 'referenDUMB' are being used by adults. It's playground talk, and Russia and all other opponents of the EU must be rubbing their hands with glee. 1 down, 27 to go.

Capt'n Midnight

An overview of this week from the New Yorker
https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/another-exhausting-agonizing-week-of-brexit
" The waves keep coming. And they are getting higher."

Capt'n Midnight

Sand wrote: »

I think the clear issue on the British side is that Brexit was fuelled by English nationalism. Whereas the Tory's are infused with British nationalism: Global Britain, Empire 2.0 and so on. The two identities are opposed: British is an imperial, multi national identity designed to unify the ruling caste of a global empire. English is...well, English. English nationalism won Brexit, but the UK government implementing Brexit remains in control of the British nationalists. Disharmony is inherent.

The real struggle in the UK is between those two identities with their opposed interests. Brexit is just another battlefield.

There was also the divide engineered by Maggies economics.

London and the South East had services boosted while investement in the North and regions declined. And while taking funding away from the regions the EU was blamed.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2018/06/14/margaret-thatcher-and-the-road-to-brexit/

parts of England have become ‘left behind’. Where there was once industry and proper employment, this has now gone; the mistake was not to recognise this, and not to even attempt to replace them. The ‘left behind’ parts have suffered disproportionally from ‘austerity’, the shrinking of the state supposedly in the name of ‘reducing Labour’s deficit’, but in reality a political move to further enrich the wealthy and impoverish the poor; it increases inequality. Inequality is very bad for your health. A particularly clever part of the marketing of Brexit was to show the left behinders that their problems were caused by the EU rather than being the UK’s own failures.

...
It was the left behind areas of England that determined Leave in the referendum.

I sorta feel sorry for the leave voters, they've been let down by just about everyone except the EU. Politicans and media haven't helped them as much EU directives on working time and on health and safety and food quality and jobs because of being able to work within the EU supply chain.

Havockk

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I sorta feel sorry for the leave voters, they've been let down by just about everyone except the EU. Politicans and media haven't helped them as much EU directives on working time and on health and safety and food quality and jobs because of being able to work within the EU supply chain.

Those who engineered this? Well they are going to have a huge problem after this... who to blame?

Capt'n Midnight

Havockk wrote: »

Those who engineered this? Well they are going to have a huge problem after this... who to blame?

I feel sorry for the those who thought voting leave was a vote against the system, instead of being a vote for the those at the top of the system.

KingNerolives

We should have another referendum tbh

Capt'n Midnight

Hitachi seeks Japanese partners in building $27bn UK nuclear plant Compare one power plant to the nett UK contribution to EU of £8Bn a year.

I'm sure there's other stuff that Brexit is distracting from. But this is one of the three new nuclear projects the UK will be depending on to keep the lights on in the future.

If there's a no deal Brexit and things go pear shaped the UK won't have the magic money tree to support such white elephants IMHO.

And of course Labour aren't fans of subsidising big foreign companies so none of these projects are politically stable. Pretty much like Brexit really.

Is the gubermint on auto pilot for big projects ? How is HS2 getting on ? Are there any real infrastruture projects outside of the south east ? Or is it all whishful thinking ? What's in it for the regions.

Tropheus

Havockk wrote: »

Those who engineered this? Well they are going to have a huge problem after this... who to blame?

The EU, the remainers, the Irish to name but a few.

gooch2k9

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Hitachi seeks Japanese partners in building $27bn UK nuclear plant Compare one power plant to the nett UK contribution to EU of £8Bn a year.

I'm sure there's other stuff that Brexit is distracting from. But this is one of the three new nuclear projects the UK will be depending on to keep the lights on in the future.

If there's a no deal Brexit and things go pear shaped the UK won't have the magic money tree to support such white elephants IMHO.

And of course Labour aren't fans of subsidising big foreign companies so none of these projects are politically stable. Pretty much like Brexit really.

Is the gubermint on auto pilot for big projects ? How is HS2 getting on ? Are there any real infrastruture projects outside of the south east ? Or is it all whishful thinking ? What's in it for the regions.

Is this only relevant for England, Scotland and Wales? As in does the all Ireland energy market cover NI, or is that an oustanding item to be negotiated?

An Claidheamh

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-44500778/sinn-fein-leader-brexit-is-a-tory-conceived-vanity

McDonald : Brexit causes a "change to the constitution of NI without consent"...

BBC : "That sounds like a threat".

A threat? It's a fact.
The media over there seem to be the ones issuing threats ffs!

Incidentally, he seems flabbergasted that there would be a border poll in McDonald's lifetime and then quotes Varadkar to try and give out about the fact that SF want a united Ireland - yet the topic was supposed to be Britain's Brexit mess.

Just shows up another clueless "journalist" , just more smug, who can't deal with a politician who knows what they're talking about.

Kermit.de.frog

Apparently Barnier and Juncker are in Dublin next Thursday and Friday with press conferences arranged.

Pressure on Britain ahead of the summit?

Strazdas

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Apparently Barnier and Juncker are in Dublin next Thursday and Friday with press conferences arranged.

Pressure on Britain ahead of the summit?

This was scheduled for some time, a few weeks anyway, but it still may have been deliberately timed to happen just before the summit.

Kermit.de.frog

Strazdas wrote: »

This was scheduled for some time, a few weeks anyway, but it still may have been deliberately timed to happen just before the summit.

If it's few weeks I highly doubt it's coincidental and surely Barnier would not normally go wherever Juncker goes.

Another Donald Tusk "Ireland first" moment to enrage the Brexiteers?

EdgeCase

They seem constantly shocked by the fact that the EU, unlike themselves isn’t just throwing Ireland under a bus. Unlike the UK, the EU does actually grant its members huge powers of veto and treats them with a far greater degree of equality and respect. The UK approach is very much that the UK is England and the other countries aren't taken seriously at all really. That's always been the history of the UK. It's never been a union by consent, but by hostile acquisition and forced integration and that's, sadly, still being reflected in modern politics.

There’s also an inability to comprehend that Ireland is a part of the EU and the Eurozone and the European Commission and other institutions' job and role is to protect the EU and the Eurozone.

The UK is now a politically unstable, rogue, soon to be former member, that not only is leaving but has politicians, closely associated with the government, regularly making threats to Ireland and to Europe.

Not only that but you’ve had regular statements over the years from various political and media sources in the UK not only wishing to leave the EU but actually calling for it to be disbanded or destroyed and you've had calls to do damage to the Irish economy.

That’s beyond smug. It’s openly nasty, bitter, hostile and threatening behavior.

Igotadose

An Claidheamh wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-44500778/sinn-fein-leader-brexit-is-a-tory-conceived-vanity

Good performance by Mary Lou McDonald versus a bad BBC interviewer who seemed to want to toe the Brexiteer line. I do like 'Tory conceived vanity' as a good definition of Brexit.

LeinsterDub

One senior official in Brussels privately wonders if, as we hurtle towards an October crisis, might Theresa May seek a last-minute extension of Article 50?

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/0615/970823-tony-connelly-brexit/

Good summary as always from Tony. There is a lot of talk of an extension recently. Surely this isn't helpful an extension just leads to the clueless being clueless for longer.

Water John

Really good analysis by Tony Conneelly here;
https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/0615/970823-tony-connelly-brexit/

He is always worth a read. See the point that the UK are briefing against us, around EU. So it isn't just JRM and his ilk.
UK hoping when it comes down to it, that the EU will throw ROI under the bus.

flatty

The EU will stand foursquare behind Ireland. I have absolutely no doubt about this. None.

J Mysterio

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2018/0615/970823-tony-connelly-brexit/

Good summary as always from Tony. There is a lot of talk of an extension recently. Surely this isn't helpful an extension just leads to the clueless being clueless for longer.

This quote from the article is spot on:

"We need the UK to accept the consequences of its decisions. I have the impression that for the UK, everything has to change on the EU side, so that everything stays the same for the UK."

An Claidheamh

"Irish sources say they have been informed via European capitals that British officials have been briefing against Ireland, hoping to diminish support for Ireland’s case."

Can we stop pretending they're our friends now?

In any other country, this would be headline news.

flatty

An Claidheamh wrote: »

"Irish sources say they have been informed via European capitals that British officials have been briefing against Ireland, hoping to diminish support for Ireland’s case."

Can we stop pretending they're our friends now?

In any other country, this would be headline news.

The brexit wing of the tory party is friends with no one, and is as happy to screw over its own less well off compatriots as it is to screw over Ireland, or anyone else. Why would you think any different. I would suggest just bearing in mind that four times the population of the Republic voted to remain despite all of the lies and spin and rule breaking and propaganda. That's an awful lot of people who want to be open, friendly and good European neighbours.

briany

UK Business Insider running a story that the EU now believes Theresa May will accept the softest of Brexits.

Still, the problem remains that Jacob Rees Mogg et al won't.

judeboy101

flatty wrote: »

The EU will stand foursquare behind Ireland. I have absolutely no doubt about this. None.

i doubt the phone call Brian lenihan got from the EU pre guarantee would back that statement up.

Enzokk

briany wrote: »

UK Business Insider running a story that the EU now believes Theresa May will accept the softest of Brexits.

Still, the problem remains that Jacob Rees Mogg et al won't.

Interesting story. Reads to me more like the EU thinks that the only way the UK can deliver what they have said, i.e. protect the GFA means they will have to settle for a soft Brexit. It doesn't say anything that this has been agreed, only that this seems to be the only path open to the UK as the EU sees it. At the time they triggered article 50 I would have agreed with this view, now I am thinking the UK would gamble with a no-deal Brexit.

joeysoap

From QT and other programs on British tv I get the impression that many of the leavers never considered the Uk as being one of the 28 members. Alsmost like 27 and ‘us’.
‘They’ made decisions which affected us, ‘they’ made life hard for us, ‘they’ had too many rules etc etc. and enough of the electorate swallowed the spin thrown at them. The fact that the big sellers - the Sun, the Express, the Daily Mail etc - have been anti EU, gave some voters a reason to vote leave, bendy bananas, Turkey joining the Eu among others,

Maybe my memory isn’t as good as it was but didn’t TM visit Turkey early doors to talk trade deals? A country that was supposedly joining the EU?

ArmaniJeanss

EdgeCase wrote: »

Not only that but you’ve had regular statements over the years from various political and media sources in the UK not only wishing to leave the EU but actually calling for it to be disbanded

I have recently spoke to some Leave voters who genuinely think this is what they voted for.
The 'logic' seems to be that a major country voted for the bloc of 28 to be broken up, therefore that's what should happen. That the remainder seem content to carry on as a bloc of 27 is regarded as being tantamount to cheating and evidence of typical foreigner skullduggery. I found it a novel attitude. Purely anecdotal this, just a handful of (very well off) retirees in a village pub in Surrey.

Edit : A rough quote was 'we voted for everyone to go back to just trading with each other how they wanted, but they (Europe) won't honour that vote'.

trellheim

From QT and other programs on British tv I get the impression that many of the leavers never considered the Uk as being one of the 28 members. Alsmost like 27 and ‘us’.
‘They’ made decisions which affected us, ‘they’ made life hard for us, ‘they’ had too many rules etc etc. and enough of the electorate swallowed the spin thrown at them. The fact that the big sellers - the Sun, the Express, the Daily Mail etc - have been anti EU, gave some voters a reason to vote leave, bendy bananas, Turkey joining the Eu among others,

Maybe my memory isn’t as good as it was but didn’t TM visit Turkey early doors to talk trade deals? A country that was supposedly joining the EU?

Sustained campaign since the 70s from the media Mail/Sun/Express against the EU ; this in the absence of a pro-eu media means the bendy banana etc is in the popular psyche ( in saying that I watched an excellent Commons adjournment debate to abolish Foie Gras ( which is protected by the french local foods thing) .

However these chattering classes will be unhappy when their roaming charges go back up

Sam Russell

trellheim wrote: »

However these chattering classes will be unhappy when their roaming charges go back up

Not to mention the EIHC card, and the removal of credit card surcharges, plus the protection of the working hours directive, plus plus plus.

Mind you, they are protected from chlorinated chicken if they stay in the single market. So not all bad.

briany

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I have recently spoke to some Leave voters who genuinely think this is what they voted for.
The 'logic' seems to be that a major country voted for the bloc of 28 to be broken up, therefore that's what should happen. That the remainder seem content to carry on as a bloc of 27 is regarded as being tantamount to cheating and evidence of typical foreigner skullduggery. I found it a novel attitude. Purely anecdotal this, just a handful of (very well off) retirees in a village pub in Surrey.

Those people are lucky they have the cast of Love Island to keep them off the bottom of the Political Insight league.