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Ulster Bank League 2018-2019 Talk/Gossip/Rumours

The Lost Sheep

1A
Lansdowne, Cork Constitution, Terenure College, Garryowen, Clontarf, Young Munster, UCD, Dublin University, Shannon, UCC
1B
St. Mary's College, Buccaneers, Banbridge, Ballynahinch, Old Belvedere, Naas, Ballymena, Old Wesley, Malone, City of Armagh
2A
Dolphin, UL Bohemians, Nenagh Ormond, Highfield, Cashel, Queen's University, Blackrock College, Galwegians, Old Crescent, Navan
2B
Corinthians, Greystones, Rainey Old Boys, MU Barnhall, Wanderers, Sunday's Well, Skerries, Dungannon, Sligo, Belfast Harlequins
2C
City of Derry, Omagh, Thomond, Malahide, Midleton, Seapoint, Bangor, Tullamore, Ballina, Bruff

No fixtures for AIL until July and provincial leagues/cups could be next month.
Plenty of coaching changes expected.

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gilesdebond

Any word or feedback from clubs outside of Leinster on the restructure from 2019 - 2020?

The Lost Sheep

gilesdebond wrote: »

Any word or feedback from clubs outside of Leinster on the restructure from 2019 - 2020?

Nothing yet. Dont see too many changes.
What changes if any would you like to happen to the league?

gilesdebond

I'd leave it as is. The 10 team per league works great and every team has something to play for at the end of the season. I can understand that some clubs find it hard financially with the travel and accommodation but it's a national league.

From what I'm hearing is the IFRU want to reduce the amount of senior clubs to two divisions of 8 and allow all the academy and development players to play every week. They then want to split the country in two and have a northern and southern conference.

The Lost Sheep

gilesdebond wrote: »

I'd leave it as is. The 10 team per league works great and every team has something to play for at the end of the season. I can understand that some clubs find it hard financially with the travel and accommodation but it's a national league.

From what I'm hearing is the IFRU want to reduce the amount of senior clubs to two divisions of 8 and allow all the academy and development players to play every week. They then want to split the country in two and have a northern and southern conference.

10 team isnt the issue but the travel is the major issue and possibly we dont need 50 clubs playing in full country wide divisions. Proportionally its very high especially compared to number of senior clubs/top leagues in other countries.
All academy play lot of AIL as it is. Its a big misnomer that they dont. They generally play unless injured/playing provincial sides or playing national u20s.

Splitting country into regionalised conferences would mean those clubs are still senior.

Squidgy Black

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

10 team isnt the issue but the travel is the major issue and possibly we dont need 50 clubs playing in full country wide divisions. Proportionally its very high especially compared to number of senior clubs/top leagues in other countries.
All academy play lot of AIL as it is. Its a big misnomer that they dont. They generally play unless injured/playing provincial sides or playing national u20s.

Splitting country into regionalised conferences would mean those clubs are still senior.

This year would've been perfect for a North/South conference in 1A definitely.

Cork Constitution, Garryowen, Young Munster, Shannon, UCC in a South conference.

Lansdowne, Terenure College, Clontarf, UCD, Dublin University in a North conference.

Would've brought the amount of travel needed right down.

The Lost Sheep

Squidgy Black wrote: »

This year would've been perfect for a North/South conference in 1A definitely.

Cork Constitution, Garryowen, Young Munster, Shannon, UCC in a South conference.

Lansdowne, Terenure College, Clontarf, UCD, Dublin University in a North conference.

Would've brought the amount of travel needed right down.

There is no need for that. We're talking about 5 teams per split. If divisions were 14/15/16 teams then a north/south split is fine but why do that in 1A especially when we're talking about all city clubs with motorway travel to/from each venue/club.
Division 2 could be argued for considering you could be talking about clubs like City of Derry travelling to county Cork and travel wont all or even mostly be on motorway.

ArmchairQB

Don’t think they want to split Division 1a or 1b geographically they want 1a & 1b as 8 team leagues and split the rest of the divisions geographically. There will be an A team league for the provinces with Wales possibly Scotland 8 games September & October plus a final and then academy players released back to clubs in November but between S&C protocol in provinces and November internationals the academy players will unlikely to be seen much or at all before Christmas I would say. IRFU may provide S&C coaching and some other coaching aspects to clubs but that won’t go down well with larger clubs in 1a or 1b who have those coaching set ups already
Leinster I believe want current structure of 10 to remain as 8 team league would see constant battle for relegation and promotion and the rugby suffers as does developing players who are not up to speed in club systems plays etc and relegation safety becomes priority.
IRFU calling in clubs individually in next few weeks so they will tell all such and such was agreed and requested by clubs rather than have clubs in as altogether that would get a transparent & honest view from clubs. IRFU have their agenda and will want to push it through regardless and will say how it is so much better for clubs who asked for these changes. My opinion of what is going to happen

GavMan

One thing I will agree with TLS is that travel and its cost must be a huge issue for all clubs, in particular 2a/b/c clubs.

It might not happened but in the next couple of years but in the long term I would see 1A and 1B staying at 10 or moving to 12 teams and scrapping 2A/B/C as an AIL, move those back to provincial leagues and then a condensed All Ireland Play off. Something like top 2 from each into QF's, SF's and Final. Do a triple header on finals day. 1A 1B and what would be the play off final. straight up and down relegations/promotions.

I dunno, maybe it doesn't make sense right now but something to consider for the future. Travel time and costs will eventually cripple small clubs in lower leagues

RockBoysarewii

Would having 12 teams in 1a and 1b be too much?
I feel there’s not enough space for all the big clubs in two divisions of 10 and definitely not 8.

The Lost Sheep

RockBoysarewii wrote: »

Would having 12 teams in 1a and 1b be too much?
I feel there’s not enough space for all the big clubs in two divisions of 10 and definitely not 8.

you can't have home and away with 12 team divisions and who exactly do you see as the "big clubs"??

RockBoysarewii

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

you can't have home and away with 12 team divisions and who exactly do you see as the "big clubs"??

Why not? Are squads not big enough?

The Lost Sheep

RockBoysarewii wrote: »

Why not? Are squads not big enough?

the season is long enough as it is. Fitting in an extra 4 games isn't possible/feasible.
Squad size isn't reason. And who are you referring to when you say there isn't room for all the big clubs??

RockBoysarewii

I’m sorry there are no big clubs

The Lost Sheep

GavMan wrote: »

One thing I will agree with TLS is that travel and its cost must be a huge issue for all clubs, in particular 2a/b/c clubs.

It might not happened but in the next couple of years but in the long term I would see 1A and 1B staying at 10 or moving to 12 teams and scrapping 2A/B/C as an AIL, move those back to provincial leagues and then a condensed All Ireland Play off. Something like top 2 from each into QF's, SF's and Final. Do a triple header on finals day. 1A 1B and what would be the play off final. straight up and down relegations/promotions.

I dunno, maybe it doesn't make sense right now but something to consider for the future. Travel time and costs will eventually cripple small clubs in lower leagues

Most clubs dont want regionalised/provincial leagues though and standards would drop a bit as you would have clubs near/at top of 2A then playing 2C sides which isnt a good thing.

RockBoysarewii wrote: »

I’m sorry there are no big clubs

???

Sportsmad5

Brendan Fanning
June 3 2018 6:30 PM

The All Ireland League is set to change shape to bring its top end closer to the professional game. In changes scheduled to kick in for the 2019-20 season, the new format will see two divisions of eight at the top - Premiership 1 and Premiership 2 - followed by two Championship Divisions, each of eight clubs, and then two Conference Divisions, also of eight clubs each.
Details of the new format were sent to the clubs on Friday following ratification at a IRFU committee meeting on Thursday evening and a final consultation process will start next month.
At the same meeting, Pa Whelan was replaced as one of Ireland's three representatives on the World Rugby council.
Given that research and meetings with clubs on the league structure have gone on to some degree over the last two seasons it's expected that in the event of stalemate over agreement, the Union will issue invitations to clubs to take part.
At the top end, it's planned initially to ensure representation from the four provinces of at least two clubs across the two the Premiership Divisions, and that they would be ring-fenced for two seasons. Thereafter, their make-up would be determined solely via promotion and relegation. Having a provincial spread allows for the respective provinces' academy players to be involved, which is central to the plan to align the proposed 'Premiership' with the professional game.
In the absence of the now-discontinued B&I Cup, the schedule would see a new 'A team' competition between Irish provinces and Welsh regions played over September/October, followed by the AIL in which there would be no restriction on the number of contracted players involved. The IRFU will fund the new format in which the IRFU's regulation 6, regarding inducements to players, will be rewritten.
The Premiership and Championship Divisions will be played on a national basis, but the plan for Conference Divisions is to structure them fresh each season to avoid long-distance travel for clubs who can't afford it.
At the IRFU meeting it was also decided that outgoing Union president Phil Orr would replace Pa Whelan on the World Rugby council. He will be ratified, along with John O’Driscoll and women’s rep Sue Carty, at the IRFU AGM next month. This is the second time in recent years Orr has benefited from swift political change. In 2015 he was voted in from the floor of the AGM as junior vice-president when outgoing management committee chairman Finbarr Crowley had been recommended by the Union committee.
Whelan has had a lifetime's involvement in Irish rugby, much of it with the Ireland team as coach/selector/manager and with the IRFU committee. He cut short his managerial role of the Ireland side shortly before their tour of South Africa in 1998, having been named in an alleged assault.
It is understood his position may have come under scrutiny following the fallout from Ireland's failed bid to host the 2023 World Cup.

The Lost Sheep

Isnt this what the Leinster clubs have already rejected??
And you can kind of see why they would.
But what should be in place?
Clubs dont want regionalised divisions but something does need to change with the league.

Chico Flores

Any word on player movements yet or is it a bit early?

I know Willie Staunton gone to Wanderers from Navan

Squidgy Black

What's the reason behind the ringfencing for the first couple of seasons?

The Lost Sheep

Chico Flores wrote: »

Any word on player movements yet or is it a bit early?

I know Willie Staunton gone to Wanderers from Navan

Bit early

Squidgy Black wrote: »

What's the reason behind the ringfencing for the first couple of seasons?

To help other provinces(Connacht/Ulster) who have weaker clubs than clubs in Munster/Leinster i assume.

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Isnt this what the Leinster clubs have already rejected??
And you can kind of see why they would.
But what should be in place?
Clubs dont want regionalised divisions but something does need to change with the league.

I think the lack of conflict between the A games and the league is potentially very good and could really boost the popularity of the league but I can't make sense of the IRFU wanting to improve the quality of the AIL and thinking introducing 2 Ulster teams and 2 Connacht teams into 1A is the solution.
For next season the current provincial split in 1A is Leinster 5 Munster 5 Ulster 0 Connacht 0. If you add in 1B the provincial split of top 20 is Leinster 9 Munster 6 Ulster 4 Connacht 1. So Connacht have zero teams in 1A, 1 team in 1B and 1 team in 2A giving them 2 teams in the top 30 clubs in Ireland and the IRFU are proposing they get 2 teams in the top 8 in Ireland!

The Lost Sheep

Stainalert wrote: »

I think the lack of conflict between the A games and the league is potentially very good and could really boost the popularity of the league but I can't make sense of the IRFU wanting to improve the quality of the AIL and thinking introducing 2 Ulster teams and 2 Connacht teams into 1A is the solution.
For next season the current provincial split in 1A is Leinster 5 Munster 5 Ulster 0 Connacht 0. If you add in 1B the provincial split of top 20 is Leinster 9 Munster 6 Ulster 4 Connacht 1. So Connacht have zero teams in 1A, 1 team in 1B and 1 team in 2A giving them 2 teams in the top 30 clubs in Ireland and the IRFU are proposing they get 2 teams in the top 8 in Ireland!

Im not sure lack of conflict between A games and league will "really boost" leagues popularity.
I do see why IRFU would want sides from other provinces up to the top level. Connacht clubs lose plenty to Dublin and Limerick so if they had a side in this top 8 they would/should get them back to play...
Ulster very different.

irishbucsfan

Chico Flores wrote: »

Any word on player movements yet or is it a bit early?

I know Willie Staunton gone to Wanderers from Navan

Too early, guys are still making their decisions. Usually I find there's some bigger dominos that have to fall (leadership/coaching) and then a flurry of activity shortly afterwards.

irishbucsfan

Stainalert wrote: »

I think the lack of conflict between the A games and the league is potentially very good and could really boost the popularity of the league but I can't make sense of the IRFU wanting to improve the quality of the AIL and thinking introducing 2 Ulster teams and 2 Connacht teams into 1A is the solution.
For next season the current provincial split in 1A is Leinster 5 Munster 5 Ulster 0 Connacht 0. If you add in 1B the provincial split of top 20 is Leinster 9 Munster 6 Ulster 4 Connacht 1. So Connacht have zero teams in 1A, 1 team in 1B and 1 team in 2A giving them 2 teams in the top 30 clubs in Ireland and the IRFU are proposing they get 2 teams in the top 8 in Ireland!

I think they're looking at an improvement of quality over the long-term. I think the idea is having 2 sides per province makes it far, far easier for the IRFU to justify funding it. If they funded the current system then they'd just end up pouring money into Leinster/Munster and there are a good few clubs there who simply don't deserve it.

Stainalert

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Stainalert wrote: »

I think the lack of conflict between the A games and the league is potentially very good and could really boost the popularity of the league but I can't make sense of the IRFU wanting to improve the quality of the AIL and thinking introducing 2 Ulster teams and 2 Connacht teams into 1A is the solution.
For next season the current provincial split in 1A is Leinster 5 Munster 5 Ulster 0 Connacht 0. If you add in 1B the provincial split of top 20 is Leinster 9 Munster 6 Ulster 4 Connacht 1. So Connacht have zero teams in 1A, 1 team in 1B and 1 team in 2A giving them 2 teams in the top 30 clubs in Ireland and the IRFU are proposing they get 2 teams in the top 8 in Ireland!

Im not sure lack of conflict between A games and league will "really boost" leagues popularity.
I do see why IRFU would want sides from other provinces up to the top level. Connacht clubs lose plenty to Dublin and Limerick so if they had a side in this top 8 they would/should get them back to play...
Ulster very different.

Having one side in the top 8 is a bit different to having 2 teams in the top 8 and 4 in the top 16 which if I understand correctly is what is being proposed.
So Trinity finished 8th this season in 1A yet under the new rules wouldn't even make 1B all because of WHERE Galwegians or Corinthians play their rugby - doesn't actually matter how good Trinity are relative to Galwegians or Corinthians - that's irrelevant.

irishbucsfan

Stainalert wrote: »

Having one side in the top 8 is a bit different to having 2 teams in the top 8 and 4 in the top 16 which if I understand correctly is what is being proposed.
So Trinity finished 8th this season in 1A yet under the new rules wouldn't even make 1B all because of WHERE Galwegians or Corinthians play their rugby - doesn't actually matter how good Trinity are relative to Galwegians or Corinthians - that's irrelevant.

That is how I understand it as well

Stainalert

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Stainalert wrote: »

Having one side in the top 8 is a bit different to having 2 teams in the top 8 and 4 in the top 16 which if I understand correctly is what is being proposed.
So Trinity finished 8th this season in 1A yet under the new rules wouldn't even make 1B all because of WHERE Galwegians or Corinthians play their rugby - doesn't actually matter how good Trinity are relative to Galwegians or Corinthians - that's irrelevant.

That is how I understand it as well

Or take another scenario: a Munster club finishes 3rd next season in 1A behind 2 other Munster teams. That mean's they are the 3rd ranked Munster team and as such will have to play in 1B the following season even though they are the 3rd best team in the country!

irishbucsfan

Stainalert wrote: »

Or take another scenario: a Munster club finishes 3rd next season in 1A behind 2 other Munster teams. That mean's they are the 3rd ranked Munster team and as such will have to play in 1B the following season even though they are the 3rd best team in the country!

Yes

It's not a fully meritocratic approach.

RuPi

From what I understand the top two leagues of 8 will be drawn based on league finishing position this year so the top 8 in 1A no matter where they are situated will form the top league and then the bottom two of 1A will join the top 5 from 1 B plus another Connacht side likely to be Galwegians, that is of course presuming Buccs and two Ulster sides finish in that top 5 of 1B. It won't just be the two designated sides from each province in the top league

"At the top end, it's planned initially to ensure representation from the four provinces of at least two clubs across the two the Premiership Divisions,"

ArmchairQB

RuPi wrote: »

From what I understand the top two leagues of 8 will be drawn based on league finishing position this year so the top 8 in 1A no matter where they are situated will form the top league and then the bottom two of 1A will join the top 5 from 1 B plus another Connacht side likely to be Galwegians, that is of course presuming Buccs and two Ulster sides finish in that top 5 of 1B. It won't just be the two designated sides from each province in the top league.

no not the propoosed case the views above are correct from what clubs have been told

Stainalert

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Stainalert wrote: »

Or take another scenario: a Munster club finishes 3rd next season in 1A behind 2 other Munster teams. That mean's they are the 3rd ranked Munster team and as such will have to play in 1B the following season even though they are the 3rd best team in the country!

Yes

It's not a fully meritocratic approach.

Eh it's not meritocratic at all