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Debate: Does it annoy you that RTE are only Broadcaster on HD on Saorview?

carrolls

Just when the topic was gaining momentum on the terrestrial forum, it was closed down and we were told to use the UTV sticky here in Broadcasting. But the debate was far from complete.
This is a general question about independents, not just UTV.
So I pose the question again here. Any independents who would like to broadcast in HD on Saorview are required to pay RTE Networks €2.2 Million annually for the privilege of doing so.
This fee does not really matter to RTE, because their subsidiary 2RN have been given the job of ringmaster for the network and because they fund the network using license payers money.
Therefore, due to government granted monopolistic competition rules, RTE have a huge competitive advantage over other broadcasters like UTV, TV3 and TG4 when it comes to broadcasting in HD.
Is this fair?
I think more realistic fees should be charged to independents for access to HD, In other words create a level playing field.
I suggest that the part of the licence that funds RTE carriage should be shared equally between RTE, UTV, TV3 and TG4, So they can all afford to broadcast in HD.

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The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

Was this not on the back of complaints by TV3? Is there any evidence that there was any EU involvement?

The broadcast transmission market here is regarded as having SMP and so the tariffs are regulated under EU legislation via a 2013 Comreg decision.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=86068008

RTÉ

Pursuant to ComReg Decision D11/13 which was published on the 26th July 2013, RTÉ was designated with Significant Market Power (SMP) in the market for Wholesale Access to Digital Terrestrial Television Multiplexing Services.

This is referred to and defined as Market B in Decision D11/13.

Pursuant to the Decision Instrument – Market B which is included in Decision D11/13, a range of obligations has been imposed on RTÉ.

One such obligation is to publish a Reference Offer in respect of DTT Multiplexing Services to another Broadcaster (referred to as Client) in accordance with the requirements of that Decision Instrument.

2rn

In ComReg Decision D11/13 of 26 July 2013, ComReg found that 2RN had Significant Market Power in the market for wholesale access to national terrestrial broadcast transmission services (“Market A”) and imposed on 2RN certain obligations including obligations of access, non-discrimination, transparency, cost-orientation and accounting separation.

Sam Russell

Does any of that restrict 2RN from obliging broadcaster to have a minimum resolution of 720 by 576i ?

Mickey Mike

Please excuse my simple post, but increasing the picture quality on all channels like I've stated will bring better viewing and reducing the amount of tests cards we've been looking at for the past 3 years. No other channels appear to be coming, out economy is not good enough either, so just improve what we have.

Sam Russell

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Please excuse my simple post, but increasing the picture quality on all channels like I've stated will bring better viewing and reducing the amount of tests cards we've been looking at for the past 3 years. No other channels appear to be coming, out economy is not good enough either, so just improve what we have.

Exactly. Only Virgin Media, who own a competing platform and three of the Saorview channels, would not want that as it might allow Saorview to compete (if that is the right word) with its payTV platform.

[How can something that is FREE 'compete' with something that is charged for?]

Stasi 2.0

Mickey Mike wrote: »

RTE NN 720 by 576i......OTV 720 by 576i...........Info ch. 720 by 576i .

Whether full resolution is necessary for these channels is rather debatable but full HD would be nice for TG4

[Deleted User]

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

Whether full resolution is necessary for these channels is rather debatable but full HD would be nice for TG4

Indeed it would. Theres been alot said on this forum about TV3 not being in HD on Saorview, but why isn't TG4? Its not a privately funded body like TV3, so whats stopping it being in HD on the platform?

Mickey Mike

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

Whether full resolution is necessary for these channels is rather debatable but full HD would be nice for TG4

Your're right of course 544 by 576i is plenty for those channels you have out lined. HD ch. 14 has been burning away since Mux2 was launched. TV3 HD ch. was withdrawn from Saorwiew in early 2014 which dashed hopes of launch, negotiations must have broken down badly.

Mickey Mike

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed it would. Theres been alot said on this forum about TV3 not being in HD on Saorview, but why isn't TG4? Its not a privately funded body like TV3, so whats stopping it being in HD on the platform?

Had it stayed with RTE, TG4 HD would have launched the same time as RTE1 HD

Harry Palmr

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

Whether full resolution is necessary for these channels is rather debatable but full HD would be nice for TG4

Debatable? Why? Surely any channel should be transmitted at the best PQ possible all other things being equal.

Stasi 2.0

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Debatable? Why? Surely any channel should be transmitted at the best PQ possible all other things being equal.

Because transmitting something like saorview info or "talking heads" (NN and Oireachtas) in full resolution is a rather poor use of bandwidth.

Bandwidth that could be used in the future for TG4 and perhaps even commercial channels to go full HD or even carry some UK channels.

Gerry Wicklow

Stasi 2.0 wrote: »

Because transmitting something like saorview info or "talking heads" (NN and Oireachtas) in full resolution is a rather poor use of bandwidth.

Bandwidth that could be used in the future for TG4 and perhaps even commercial channels to go full HD or even carry some UK channels.

Given the way TV3 whinge about the market and how hard it is for them to survive you ain't gonna see any other commercial channels anytime soon. The pricing structure even stops commercial radio from joining up.
Sadly Saorview is a bird with one wing tied behind it's back and is unlikely to change or improve in the foreseeable future.

Former Former

Sam Russell wrote: »

Does any of that restrict 2RN from obliging broadcaster to have a minimum resolution of 720 by 576i ?

Yes, frankly.

So long as RTE and 2RN are essentially the same entity, it's extremely unlikely that they would be allowed dictate terms to RTE's competitors.

Sam Russell wrote: »

How can something that is FREE 'compete' with something that is charged for?

If Saorview is made more attractive, it makes pay TV less attractive. TV3/Virgin would be slitting their own throats. It is not going to happen.

Elemonator

Didn't think anybody still watched RTÉ.

Capt'n Midnight

JDxtra wrote: »

Advertisers should get a discount for ads shown on non-HD channels on Saorview. You can't even read the small print on the disclaimers because the text is all blurred.

That's an interesting point but for the opposite reason.

If they need to display text for legal reasons then there's gotta be some legal issue right there.

Mickey Mike

All we can do is talk and debate the issue, and the powers that be do absolutely nothing. A total neglect of great platform, Its really sad.

TAFKAlawhec

One thing worth asking is what resolutions in SD are TV3/3e/be3 and TG4 broadcasting on Sky & Virgin?

IIRC on Sky the SD versions are themselves 544 x 576i, but I stand to be corrected.

Anyone remember the test a couple of years ago of RTÉ News Now being broadcast on a second channel with a 720x576i resolution? The sharpness of the text was very noticeable.

Charles Babbage

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

I wonder how many of these ministers would even know what HD was or can't see what the fuss is about as they watch their HD Sky sub. 'Let them eat cake' :rolleyes:

Especially for a TD representing a more rural area, supporting Saorview could be claimed to be good thing. You'd think they would take the opportunity!

blue_blue

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

IIRC on Sky the SD versions are themselves 544 x 576i, but I stand to be corrected.

You're right.

Mickey Mike

Do I see TV3hd on Saorview? Picture quality looks as bad as ever.

JDxtra

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Do I see TV3hd on Saorview? Picture quality looks as bad as ever.

They're just using the wrong graphic.

Jpmarn

TV3 is still SD on Saorview.

AwaitYourReply

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Do I see TV3hd on Saorview? Picture quality looks as bad as ever.

Yes, I also spotted something alongside the digital on-screen graphic (aka DOG) for TV3 on Saorview on Monday evening and upon a closer look I spotted 3HD however; when I went to verify I discovered it was still actually displaying picture resolution in standard definition (SD) format 576i on the Saorview digital terrestrial tv feed. Presumably it was a graphics error as I doubt TV3 will cough up for high carriage costs for a high definition (HD) feed on Saorview given TV3 Group's previous stance on the issue. I switched over to RTÉ 2HD which was showing Republic of Ireland friendly international match and picture quality was far superior to the inaccurately 3HD DOG! I would welcome TV3 in HD but can also understand their reasons for NOT taking any of their channels to HD format on Saorview.

Johnboy1951

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

Yes, I also spotted something alongside the digital on-screen graphic (aka DOG) for TV3 on Saorview on Monday evening and upon a closer look I spotted 3HD however; when I went to verify I discovered it was still actually displaying picture resolution in standard definition (SD) format 576i on the Saorview digital terrestrial tv feed. Presumably it was a graphics error as I doubt TV3 will cough up for high carriage costs for a high definition (HD) feed on Saorview given TV3 Group's previous stance on the issue. I switched over to RTÉ 2HD which was showing Republic of Ireland friendly international match and picture quality was far superior to the inaccurately 3HD DOG! I would welcome TV3 in HD but can also understand their reasons for NOT taking any of their channels to HD format on Saorview.

What are their reasons?
Financial cost? plus other reasons?

It is really annoying not to have HD on Saorview.

AwaitYourReply

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What are their reasons?
Financial cost? plus other reasons?

It is really annoying not to have HD on Saorview.

I completely agree that it is extremely annoying not to have TV3 orany of it's sister stations in HD format via the Saorview platform however; TV3 Group probably based such a decision on commercial grounds as they do not receive TV Licence Fee revenue whereas RTÉ obtains a significant amount of it's revenue from a mixture of both the TV Licence Fee and commercial advertising. Below is an interesting article published in The Irish Times in September, 2017 outlining TV3 Group's views on the matter.

Source:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/no-launch-date-for-rt%C3%A9-s-delayed-saorview-connect-service-1.3226968

Sam Russell

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

I completely agree that it is extremely annoying not to have TV3 orany of it's sister stations in HD format via the Saorview platform however; TV3 Group probably based such a decision on commercial grounds as they do not receive TV Licence Fee revenue whereas RTÉ obtains a significant amount of it's revenue from a mixture of both the TV Licence Fee and commercial advertising. Below is an interesting article published in The Irish Times in September, 2017 outlining TV3 Group's views on the matter.

Source:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/no-launch-date-for-rt%C3%A9-s-delayed-saorview-connect-service-1.3226968

The TV3 channels are allowed significantly more advertising minutes than RTE. TV3 have access to TV licence fee via the sound and vision fund, and they avail of it - as in Red Rock soap got substantial funding from it. Also TV3 benefited from an €80 m right off from the state.

AwaitYourReply

Sam Russell wrote: »

The TV3 channels are allowed significantly more advertising minutes than RTE. TV3 have access to TV licence fee via the sound and vision fund, and they avail of it - as in Red Rock soap got substantial funding from it. Also TV3 benefited from an €80 m right off from the state.

I would have been aware of the cap on advertising placed on RTÉ many years ago when RTÉ as a TV+Radio monopoly in the state had to give way and accept domestic competition. Some people might say RTÉ did it's best to stifle the ill-fated first national independent radio station, Century Radio back in September 1989 which was only broadcast in Dublin, Cork & Limerick from what I recall at the time.

I am also aware that the BAI Sound & Vision which comes from the licence fee is something that can be tapped into although; it is my understanding that RTÉ still gets the lion's share of TV Licence Fee revenue.

I often wonder exactly how much RTÉ has got written off by the state over all those years before it faced caps on advertising airtime and had no legal domestic competition nationwide?

We need a strong RTÉ, TV3 Group, TG4 and others in Ireland and that means change that better reflects tomorrow's media environment.

Sam Russell

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

I would have been aware of the cap on advertising placed on RTÉ many years ago when RTÉ as a TV+Radio monopoly in the state had to give way and accept domestic competition. Some people might say RTÉ did it's best to stifle the ill-fated first national independent radio station, Century Radio back in September 1989 which was only broadcast in Dublin, Cork & Limerick from what I recall at the time.

I am also aware that the BAI Sound & Vision which comes from the licence fee is something that can be tapped into although; it is my understanding that RTÉ still gets the lion's share of TV Licence Fee revenue.

I often wonder exactly how much RTÉ has got written off by the state over all those years before it faced caps on advertising airtime and had no legal domestic competition nationwide?

We need a strong RTÉ, TV3 Group, TG4 and others in Ireland and that means change that better reflects tomorrow's media environment.

Check out Ray Burke.

AwaitYourReply

Sam Russell wrote: »

Check out Ray Burke.

I seem to recall you had mentioned this in the past.
Not someone I would admire.

Sam Russell

AwaitYourReply wrote: »

I seem to recall you had mentioned this in the past.
Not someone I would admire.

He did a lot of damage in his political career. RTE suffered as did others. He is one of very few politicians to spend time in behind bars (not the type that serve drinks).

Former Former

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

What are their reasons?
Financial cost? plus other reasons?

It is really annoying not to have HD on Saorview.

Financial. It would cost them a lot more money to put HD content on Saorview with minimal return. It's not a commercially viable platform.

At the same time, they would be reducing the incentive for people to subscribe to Virgin Media (who own TV3), so the real cost would be even higher.