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Does Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians?

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After today's massacre, over 55 dead so far. Absolutely no regard for Palestinians basic human rights. What is the end game? Tomorrow marks the 70th anniversary of the Nakba and things are only getting worse. Events in the occupied territories are worse than anything endured in apartheid south Africa. They need support from the ground up from all people as the political will is not there.

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arybvtcw0eolkf

RustyNut wrote: »

A danger created solely by the idf snipers. Shooting unarmed civilian medics who are present only to help must surly be a war crime.

If you caught the shooter and could prove that it was done deliberately then say its a war crime.

Without a doubt.

Israeli leaders, political and military are surely guilty of a lot of war crimes. So too are the USA, Brits, French, Russians etc but the victors never answer for their crimes.

Along side Bush & Blair I'd gladly see a few Israeli leaders hauled before a court in The Hague, ain't ever going to happen no matter how many times I wish for it so I won't be stressing over it either.

Right, its too sunny out (and I'm living five minutes from the beach) for me to be getting too involved here.

I hope the Israeli's have read this thread, taken heed and stopped the killings.

G'day.

Subcomandante Marcos

Gatling wrote: »

Actually if anything why nobody has built land defenses around the protesters is unbelievable a couple of diggers and they could build mounds for hundreds of meters offering protection from bullets

You know exactly why, if anyone attempted to move industrial equipment into the "buffer zone" the Israeli's would leave nothing but a crater in the ground and claim it was going to be used to build a staging point for rocket fire or an attack on the fence.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Gatling wrote: »

Do you know he was specifically targeted or was hit by ricochet

Or the shooter could have missed his intended target and hit the doc instead, or maybe he was the target.

People are confusing snipers with soldiers with assault rifles.

A proper sniper/marksman would be a good, depending on the rifle he's using he'll be accurate out to 1000mtrs or more.

Likely the victims in Gaza are mostly shot by infantrymen with assault rifles, which are accurate out to about 300 meters, after which the fall of shot from a 5.56 round is too great to be accurate.

Have to go

CruelCoin

Madd Finn wrote: »

Shows how much you know.

The website you want is here

It was a light hearted comment.

Don't let that get in the way of the snobby retorts though.

"sniffff"

MetLuver

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Imagine a middle East that was lead by decent, honest politicians and not murderous rabble rousers

Imagine a world run by people like that! But no, nearly 7 billion innocent people have the unfortunate luck to share a planet with a few pchycopaths at the top who just. Cannot. Relax!

Captain Obvious

Here is the doctors description

We were standing well away from the main protest area. The snipers in the three sniper outposts all had clear views of us.

There was no fire or smoke near us. We were standing still, and I was facing in a southerly direction talking to a colleague. The snipers were situated east of us. I was wearing visible full hospital greens. There was no active shooting from the Israelis immediately before or after. There were no protesters in our immediate vicinity.

So either he was deliberately targeted, IDF are shooting indiscriminately or their snipers are trained like XCOM snipers.

In other news, Hamas has claimed 50 of the people killed were members. IDF has it at 24 so far. Answer is probably somewhere in between. Although with 12 others killed and 100's injured you have to wonder if this is just luck on the IDF's side. There's nothing so far to indicate these 50 were actualyl identified as Hamas before being shot or that they were a threat at them time.

Odhinn

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Here is the doctors description

So either he was deliberately targeted, IDF are shooting indiscriminately or their snipers are trained like XCOM snipers.

In other news, Hamas has claimed 50 of the people killed were members. IDF has it at 24 so far. Answer is probably somewhere in between. Although with 12 others killed and 100's injured you have to wonder if this is just luck on the IDF's side. There's nothing so far to indicate these 50 were actualyl identified as Hamas before being shot or that they were a threat at them time.

He seems to be under the delusion that being a doctor means he won't be targeted if he clearly identifies himself.

[Deleted User]

Odhinn wrote: »

He seems to be under the delusion that being a doctor means he won't be targeted if he clearly identifies himself.

It's a war crime to shoot a doctor, and it's definitely not sound for someone to shoot someone else if they can't identify if they're a threat.

So it doesn't seem like much of a delusion at all, unless the argument is that everyone in that protest area is a target that needs to be neutralised.

Odhinn

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a war crime to shoot a doctor, and it's definitely not sound for someone to shoot someone else if they can't identify if they're a threat.

So it doesn't seem like much of a delusion at all, unless the argument is that everyone in that protest area is a target that needs to be neutralised.

I would say that's not far off the criteria used. Shoot medics and journalists to "send a message", select males of arms bearing age to "cull the herd", select anyone of apparent authority amongst the protesters. It's fairly standard to the way colonies have always been "policed". When Gaza was occupied, anyone seen or suspected of stone throwing during the intifada was to have arms and legs broken
https://www.haaretz.com/1.4880391

http://articles.latimes.com/1990-06-22/news/mn-431_1_rabin-ordered
, so the shooting in the limbs is merely a successor to that policy.

Madd Finn

What's the betting Eoghan Harris will be regurgitating the Dunmanway massacre (13 shootings) of 1922 in his Sindo column this weekend as a pretext for denouncing as hypocrites and anti semites anyone concerned about the latest-but-surely-not-last gunning down of hundreds of Palestinian civilians by Israeli soldiers?

With friends like him......

twinytwo

The Israeli rules of engagement are a farce. Fine, They have a right to defend their border but when you have snipers engaging people 300 meters from the border, that equates to murder no matter what way you spin it.

It's like the Brits on bloody Sunday, blasting away at unarmed protesters, because they were "shot at by a sniper".. it's still murder.

Odhinn

Madd Finn wrote: »

What's the betting Eoghan Harris will be regurgitating the Dunmanway massacre (13 shootings) of 1922 in his Sindo column this weekend as a pretext for denouncing as hypocrites and anti semites anyone concerned about the latest-but-surely-not-last gunning down of hundreds of Palestinian civilians by Israeli soldiers?

With friends like him......

The man big on defending democracy, by running a secret sticky cell dedicated to keeping republican opinion off the air.

Billy86

Captain Obvious wrote: »

I think the snipers need more training if they are shooting marked medical personnel in a safe zone. Or maybe it is intentional.

Well if the video of the snipers taping and celebrating the shooting of people like it were sport a few weeks back is anything to go by... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/10/video-appears-show-cheers-israeli-sniper-shoots-palestinian

And it probably is, given that the IDF praised them enough to say the sniper "deserves a medal"... http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-43709737

So yeah, I'll be going with intentional. Their only 'accident' here was no knowing Tarek Loubani is from Canada and not just another unimportant Arab they can hunt like wildlife.

trixi001

Israel claims its the only democracy in the Middle East - and yet doesn't give a vote to the Palestinians, living in what Israel claim is Israel land.
If Israel was a true democracy - then the population would be a follows: (per Wikipedia populations - so may not be accurate)
Palestinians in the PA amount to about 4.65m
Israeli population is 8.85m, of which 1.87m are Palestinians and 0.4m are "other non Jews" - that means 6.58m of the population are Jewish
And 6.52m are Arab (Assuming all the PA are Arab?)
And 0.4m are "Other"
Now if this was true democracy - why would the Jews be in control?

hatrickpatrick

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Yeah I'm not buying it, as event's in Myanmar have shown this year, you can get away with expelling around a million people and not much will happen to you. I do agree with your broader assessment of what is happening in the region though, I've come to term it displacement because it seems like a fairly novel process and almost unique to Israel.

Israel is dependent on the diplomatic, financial and military support of the United States at the moment as far as maintaining the status quo goes. If the United States were to withdraw this support, Israel would find itself utterly crippled by the international community, and this is the fundamental difference - if Israel behaved as Myanmar has done, even the United States would find it extremely difficult to justify its continue support. They would probably do as they did several times under Obama's leadership - not vote against Israel, but refuse to employ their veto and therefore allow the UNSC to take action.

Obviously, all of this is based on a pre-Trump US. What would happen to day if the Israelis went on an ethnic cleansing rampage is anyone's guess.

tayto lover

Unarmed protesters killed by live fire including one in a wheelchair.

There is just no defending that.
Israeli apologists hang your heads in shame.

Odhinn

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Obviously, all of this is based on a pre-Trump US. What would happen to day if the Israelis went on an ethnic cleansing rampage is anyone's guess.

The US is, perversly, why they do it on a slow drip basis, rather than expulsions en masse and just getting it over with. I'd imagine the current regime would obfuscate and allow them get on with it, as it plays to their evangelical supporters. American jewish opinion would be against it, going on recent polls.

Irish Praetorian

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Israel is dependent on the diplomatic, financial and military support of the United States at the moment as far as maintaining the status quo goes. If the United States were to withdraw this support, Israel would find itself utterly crippled by the international community, and this is the fundamental difference - if Israel behaved as Myanmar has done, even the United States would find it extremely difficult to justify its continue support. They would probably do as they did several times under Obama's leadership - not vote against Israel, but refuse to employ their veto and therefore allow the UNSC to take action.

Obviously, all of this is based on a pre-Trump US. What would happen to day if the Israelis went on an ethnic cleansing rampage is anyone's guess.

The last paragraph is pretty damn important, but notwithstanding it, I'm not sure that Israel is in such a weak position as to be easily toppled by intervention as people think. Military intervention is clearly not on the table and hasn't produced effective results in the past. Economic intervention of any significant extent would require not only a massive turnaround in US attitudes, but would also involve getting an increasingly pro-Israel India as well as China on board, as well as assuming the Russia would not attempt to exploit the gap that a withdrawal of American patronage would occasion. My own suspicion is that in the event of an American abandonment of Israel, the Israeli hard-right would end up unchained, and start prosecuting Myanmar sized ethnic cleansing in order to secure an eventual normalization of relations in the long term. As I've said before, the horror of this situation is not just the status quo, its any possible alternative.

ThinkProgress

tayto lover wrote: »

Unarmed protesters killed by live fire including one in a wheelchair.

There is just no defending that.
Israeli apologists hang your heads in shame.

They were terrorist-led riots... not the "peaceful protestors" that many disingenuous people wish portray them as!

Here you go, right from the horse's mouth:

Mahmoud al-Zahar (Hamas): “When we talk about ‘peaceful resistance,’ we are deceiving the public,” he said. He called it “a clear terminological deception.”

Hamas, and their apologists, are the one's who should be hanging their heads in shame... sending their own civilians to their deaths!

Aussie PM Malcolm Turnbull: “Hamas’s conduct is confrontational. They’re seeking to provoke the IDF,”

"In that conflict zone, you’re basically pushing people into circumstances where they are very likely to be shot at as Israel seeks to defend itself.”

the_syco

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Obviously, all of this is based on a pre-Trump US. What would happen to day if the Israelis went on an ethnic cleansing rampage is anyone's guess.

I'd say Iran would send every Tom, Dick and Harry to attack Israel if they were given the PR blank cheque of Israel treating the Palestinians like Jews in 1940's Germany.

trixi001 wrote: »

Now if this was true democracy - why would the Jews be in control?

Secular–religious status quo. No other reason. There has been some push back over it, but so far, it has held.

tayto lover

ThinkProgress wrote: »

They were terrorist-led riots... not the "peaceful protestors" that many disingenuous people wish portray them as!

Here you go, right from the horse's mouth:

Mahmoud al-Zahar (Hamas): “When we talk about ‘peaceful resistance,’ we are deceiving the public,” he said. He called it “a clear terminological deception.”

Hamas, and their apologists, are the one's who should be hanging their heads in shame... sending their own civilians to their deaths!

Aussie PM Malcolm Turnbull: “Hamas’s conduct is confrontational. They’re seeking to provoke the IDF,”

"In that conflict zone, you’re basically pushing people into circumstances where they are very likely to be shot at as Israel seeks to defend itself.”

Ha ha. I love this "israel defends itself" crap.
Defend itself from what? A few stones, slingshots, sticks etc. and they behind armoured cover.
Yeah right. Defend itself ha ha.

No right thinking human being could call it anything other than murder.

Irish Praetorian

the_syco wrote: »

I'd say Iran would send every Tom, Dick and Harry to attack Israel if they were given the PR blank cheque of Israel treating the Palestinians like Jews in 1940's Germany.

Secular–religious status quo. No other reason. There has been some push back over it, but so far, it has held.

I can't in my wildest dreams imagine the Israelis going to the depths of the Nazi party during WW2. Also, minor aside, most German Jews actually managed to escape the Nazi terror, the one's who bore the brunt of the Holocaust were eastern European ones.

Odhinn

ThinkProgress wrote: »

They were (..........)Israel seeks to defend itself.”[/B]

It can't claim self defence, given its expansionist efforts.

You still haven't explained the 'complexities' of the situation that you alluded to, or even set them out. Why is this?

Irish Praetorian wrote:

I cant in my wildest dreams imagine the Israelis going to the depths of ww2 nazis. Also minor aside the biggest jewish victim groups of the nazis were not actually german jews by in large, but eastern european ones.

The comparison with Apartheid South Africa is far more credible. As time goes on, Israeli policies push the state in that direction more and more.

billyhead

There are 2 sides to every story. Hamas are orchestrating these protests in a way that is provoking the IDF to react. Ok you might say the reaction by the IDF maybe a little over the top and extreme but they are only protecting their borders. Its easy for you and I sitting here to say that its a war crime etc but don't believe the rubbish you hear or read in the media. Hamas couldn't give a fiddlers about thier own people. They see all this as negative PR for Israel and a way to legitimize their actions in the region.

Irish Praetorian

Odhinn wrote: »

The comparison with Apartheid South Africa is far more credible. As time goes on, Israeli policies push the state in that direction more and more.

'As bad a the Holocaust', Irish Slaves and British concentration camps are three pet peeves of mine.

The comparison to South Africa does seem quite intriguing though, albeit there are some key differences. For example South Africa as a whole was only 20% white in 1960 versus Israel today which, if we include the occupied territories, is about 60-50% Jewish. Nevertheless, I expect the policy of 'displacement' as described will continue until those numbers look more favourable to Israelis in the West Bank - as for what will become of Gaza who can tell, nothing good is my suspicion.

handlemaster

billyhead wrote: »

There are 2 sides to every story. Hamas are orchestrating these protests in a way that is provoking the IDF to react. Ok you might say the reaction by the IDF maybe a little over the top and extreme but they are only protecting their borders. Its easy for you and I sitting here to say that its a war crime etc but don't believe the rubbish you hear or read in the media. Hamas couldn't give a fiddlers about thier own people. They see all this as negative PR for Israel and a way to legitimize their actions in the region.

their borders on Palestinian land

Grayson

ThinkProgress wrote: »

They were terrorist-led riots... not the "peaceful protestors" that many disingenuous people wish portray them as!

Here you go, right from the horse's mouth:

Mahmoud al-Zahar (Hamas): “When we talk about ‘peaceful resistance,’ we are deceiving the public,” he said. He called it “a clear terminological deception.”

Hamas, and their apologists, are the one's who should be hanging their heads in shame... sending their own civilians to their deaths!

Aussie PM Malcolm Turnbull: “Hamas’s conduct is confrontational. They’re seeking to provoke the IDF,”

"In that conflict zone, you’re basically pushing people into circumstances where they are very likely to be shot at as Israel seeks to defend itself.”

There was a double amputee in a wheelchair. The IDF would have to be fcuking chicken if they were threatened by him.

tayto lover

billyhead wrote: »

There are 2 sides to every story. Hamas are orchestrating these protests in a way that is provoking the IDF to react. Ok you might say the reaction by the IDF maybe a little over the top and extreme but they are only protecting their borders. Its easy for you and I sitting here to say that its a war crime etc but don't believe the rubbish you hear or read in the media. Hamas couldn't give a fiddlers about thier own people. They see all this as negative PR for Israel and a way to legitimize their actions in the region.

A little ?? They murdered more than 60 people including children and a man in a wheelchair.

I don't care about Hamas or what mileage they get from this. Murder is murder.
I suppose Hamas sent those five children out onto the beach to play football too in 2014 when they were riddled. Stop with the victim blaming crap.

[Deleted User]

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Nobody said the Palestinians had to start invading the border of Israel despite being warned numerous times not to do so.

But they did.

Aw. A defender of Israel suddenly getting upset because a group is "invading borders". Bless, the sincerity is touching.

[Deleted User]

billyhead wrote: »

There are 2 sides to every story. Hamas are orchestrating these protests in a way that is provoking the IDF to react. Ok you might say the reaction by the IDF maybe a little over the top and extreme but they are only protecting their borders. Its easy for you and I sitting here to say that its a war crime etc but don't believe the rubbish you hear or read in the media. Hamas couldn't give a fiddlers about thier own people. They see all this as negative PR for Israel and a way to legitimize their actions in the region.

Exactly, and the poor Germans in 1935 who had been treated so appallingly by the people behind the Versailles treaty in 1919 were only making sure by passing the Nuremberg Laws that they would never return to that treatment again? Right? (The Jews having as much connection to that mistreatment of Germany in 1919 as the Palestinians had with what happened the Jews in WWII, of course)

Or might that analogy be a tad too consistent for the "two sides to every story" apologists for current Israeli war crimes?