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Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

ancapailldorcha

This thread is for continuing the discussion of the recent Belfast rape trial. The old thread can be found here.

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The AH mods.

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jm08

Fann Linn wrote: »

Going around in circles here. Same thing was said 2 hours ago.

I'm sorry for repeating.

Silentcorner

jm08 wrote: »

I heard an Irishman who lectures Sports Law in an Australian University and used to work in Queens on Saturday Sport and who has been following the Belfast trial. In the interview he spoke about a sports rape trial that was similar to the one Belfast one with an AFL player. He explained then what the AFL did to counteract the problem.

I've looked up the case which involved a player called Andrew Lovett, who was 28 at the time. He was suspended by his club when the rape was alleged, and as soon as he was charged, he was sacked by the club (St. Kilda). He was found not guilty (2011).
Summary of case is here

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/jury-finds-lovett-not-guilty-of-rape-charges-20110725-1hwii.html

Since then, he hasn't been able to find a club and is working as a builders labourer and was recently in the news for assaulting another woman (not sexually).

Jesus, from that short piece he was proper hard done by. This naming of defendants pretrial has to stop...

Mooooo

Simple enough, added pressure form sponsors likely led to the contract termination won't be said but most likely. Like most things it's money is what it boils down to, or the loss of it

goz83

Omackeral wrote: »

They are. 100% agree with that. The amount of black cocks I've seen in my football whats'app group is needless! The language and sh*te talk I have with my own mates includes some very dark humour too that I'd uncomfortable with my family hearing. This idea that you shouldn't text things you wouln't want read aloud to strangers or at the workplace is a load of crap. People are allowed to say things if they're in private.

There is a serious mob mentality out there with double standards out the hoop. Appledreams15 is a perfect example of the double standard hypocrisy being shouted out. On this thread, she is with the mob to cause as much damage to the innocent men in Belfast. To her, the verdict was wrong because the men must be guilty.

Then if we look at her posts in the other thread about the woman who is suing the estate of a deceased family for alleged psychological injuries, Appledreams15 is disgusted by mob mentality and bravely defends the poor young woman who is apparantly not at fault for suing the estate of the decesed family....the estate which is supposed to be for the baby girl and sole survivor of the tragedy. Apples blames everyone for the girl putting in an injury claim and absolves her of any responsibility.

I am seeing a pattern here. It’s actually quite disgusting. Such bias and hypocrisy and both threads were running at the same time.

Fann Linn

jm08 wrote: »

I heard an Irishman who lectures Sports Law in an Australian University and used to work in Queens on Saturday Sport and who has been following the Belfast trial. In the interview he spoke about a sports rape trial that was similar to the one Belfast one with an AFL player. He explained then what the AFL did to counteract the problem.

I've looked up the case which involved a player called Andrew Lovett, who was 28 at the time. He was suspended by his club when the rape was alleged, and as soon as he was charged, he was sacked by the club (St. Kilda). He was found not guilty (2011).
Summary of case is here

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/jury-finds-lovett-not-guilty-of-rape-charges-20110725-1hwii.html

Since then, he hasn't been able to find a club and is working as a builders labourer and was recently in the news for assaulting another woman (not sexually).

Going around in circles here. Same thing was said 2 hours ago.

[Deleted User]

I'm still not sure why there is souch outrage about the termination of their contracts when the argument is made that they were cleared in court.

The threshold for a criminal conviction in NI or this jurastiction is thankfully very high.

The threshold for getting ones employment terminated is obviously far lower.

A jury of ones peers can decide one thing but an employer can still decide that it's in their best interest to terminate your employment.

jm08

I heard an Irishman who lectures Sports Law in an Australian University and used to work in Queens on Saturday Sport and who has been following the Belfast trial. In the interview he spoke about a sports rape trial that was similar to the one Belfast one with an AFL player. He explained then what the AFL did to counteract the problem.

I've looked up the case which involved a player called Andrew Lovett, who was 28 at the time. He was suspended by his club when the rape was alleged, and as soon as he was charged, he was sacked by the club (St. Kilda). He was found not guilty (2011).
Summary of case is here

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/jury-finds-lovett-not-guilty-of-rape-charges-20110725-1hwii.html

Since then, he hasn't been able to find a club and is working as a builders labourer and was recently in the news for assaulting another woman (not sexually).

Wheeliebin30

Free speech????????

[Deleted User]

goz83 wrote: »

People are allowed to have mindless, graphic banter with their friends in person, by text or whatever.

They are. 100% agree with that. The amount of black cocks I've seen in my football whats'app group is needless! The language and sh*te talk I have with my own mates includes some very dark humour too that I'd uncomfortable with my family hearing. This idea that you shouldn't text things you wouln't want read aloud to strangers or at the workplace is a load of crap. People are allowed to say things if they're in private.

BBDBB

This is exactly why the punishment of exile was the wrong way to go
This is exactly why those demanding they never get a chance at redemption and must be sacked have over extended their reach. It was always about vengeance, rather than education.

People dont cop on because punishment has happened to someone else
Some of them dont even cop on when the punishment happens to themselves
They cop on because they understand the consequences of their actions and realise its wrong to behave that way.
Educate people and give them a choice if you want lasting and certain change in behaviour and culture.

Paddy Jackson, Stuart Olding and Craig Gilroy should be on a tour of rugby clubs and schools & colleges alongside people from the protest groups, the rape support groups etc. They should be delivering presentations and holding question and answer sessions with young men and women about issues like consent, respect, communication. Not heading abroad, away from the pressure and with bulging wallets starting afresh.

The cost of such a campaign should be borne by those sponsors so concerned about their core values being damaged. Values are only values when you actually live by them, put your money where your mouth is, otherwise they are just empty words.

That way the important issues that are raised in this whole sorry business stay in the spotlight and dont now drift away from the front pages now that PJ & SO are going abroad.
For example the way alleged rape victims are treated. The way evidence is gathered from them and cases are constructed.
The genuine protection of peoples identity (alleged victim and alleged perpetrator)
The way young people conduct themselves on issues of sex, consent, & respect.
These are all important issues that have been raised and gone over in discussing this trial, what happens to them now that the two have been exiled? wheres the momentum going to come from?

Benefits?
The IRFU/Ulster get to demonstrate that rugby is prepared to do its part in improving the number of rapes that go unreported and the number that eventually result in conviction
The sponsors get to demonstrate their core values aren't meaningless platitudes. Their reputations are enhanced.
Youngsters get to address these mysogyny issues with people with a story to tell and some harshly learned lessons they have learned
The alleged victim gets to see some lasting change as a result of her case going to trial and ultimately failing, cos so far she's getting nothing.
And PJ & SO get the opportunity to claw back some of their lives by making genuine recompense for the damage they've done.

Gunmonkey

Appledreams15 wrote: »

A threesome that left her bleeding. If you really thought UR would continue to let them play, I'm surprised. There is alot of nationwide anger at them, the sponsors don't want them there. Good riddance

So...whats the situation with the Ulster team now...will it sit and wait for the investigation into the conversations to finish and not play? And I guess the Irish team too. Hope it gets resolved quickly.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

skearnsot

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Maybe they"ll cop on now

Yes it’s horrible going on - BUUUUUT it doesn’t mean they raped anyone either! How many women have groups with derogatory language regarding men I wonder!!

goz83

Appledreams15 wrote: »

A threesome that left her bleeding. If you really thought UR would continue to let them play, I'm surprised. There is alot of nationwide anger at them, the sponsors don't want them there. Good riddance

Do you respect the verdict, or do you think they are rapists? Genuine question.

goz83

Sleeper12 wrote: »

False accusers also harm genuine rape victims.

They harm alot of people. The accused, both families, friends and not to mention the complete waste of police resources.

goz83

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Maybe they"ll cop on now

Maybe you will. People are allowed to have mindless, graphic banter with their friends in person, by text or whatever. The way the world is going these days, I am hoping Musk builds that space ship pretty damn fast......and then blasts all those feminazis to Mars.

[Deleted User]

goz83 wrote:

There is conflicting research everywhere, but lets take thise figures for now and round them off. For every 10 alleged rapes, 1 of them will be proven to be false. Thatâ€™s a lot of false allegations. There arenâ€™t many jail cells with false accusers in them, are there? Usually nothing happens even when it is proven that the accuser is lying, or blatantly admits it.

False accusers also harm genuine rape victims.

NAGDEFI

Appledreams15 wrote: »

Maybe they"ll cop on now

I argued on here a lot about how disgusting i found the messages. I wanted players to have standards. I want players who respected women.

But do you think banning these lads from ever playing with their home province and country is too much punishment?

If we respect the judicial system and accept they were found not guilty of rape also?

[Deleted User]

mariaalice wrote:

Why does it need another discussion?

1130 posts in two days.

Appledreams15

almostover wrote: »

It all smacks of hypocrisy when the airport in Belfast is named after Northern Ireland's most famous womaniser, George Best. We've gone from idolising the likes of Best who openly bragged about their sexual conquests to hounding young men out of their own country for having a threesome and sending disrespectful texts. Progress? Or have things gone too far?

A threesome that left her bleeding. If you really thought UR would continue to let them play, I'm surprised. There is alot of nationwide anger at them, the sponsors don't want them there. Good riddance

Greysquirel09

almostover wrote: »

It all smacks of hypocrisy when the airport in Belfast is named after Northern Ireland's most famous womaniser, George Best. We've gone from idolising the likes of Best who openly bragged about their sexual conquests to hounding young men out of their own country for having a threesome and sending disrespectful texts. Progress? Or have things gone too far?

He was also a wife beater. It's the new age snowflake mob they haven't a clue.

Appledreams15

skearnsot wrote: »

Jesus how many young fellas are in a what’s app group in the country texting messages like that?? Seriously!! Hope they won’t be sacked Monday

Maybe they"ll cop on now

NAGDEFI

irishproduce wrote: »

Why do you say never play for Ireland again?
I didn't read that, maybe I missed it - genuinely.

I don't see how they can't come back after "atoning" someplace else for a year or two.

You haven't read that post properly. I said stay in Ireland serve a suspension of a year or until the end of the 2018 calendar year.

The chance to redeem themselves where they were born and bred and want to play.

Yes. Today's judgement means they can NEVER play here again, for Ulster or Ireland.

skearnsot

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I suppose once that was submitted as evidence it was fair game though.

Jesus how many young fellas are in a what’s app group in the country texting messages like that?? Seriously!! Hope they won’t be sacked Monday

NAGDEFI

I've a funny feeling the 2019 WC could bring a strange Karma.

Many on here will remember New Zealand's problems at out half in the 2011 WC. First Carter got injured, then Cruden, next Colin Slade i think and they had to call up Stephen Donald, 4th choice outhalf from holidays. He's a flaky player and looked out of shape, his jersey wouldn't cover his back! He hit a wobbily 3 pointer in the 8-7 defeat of France in the final but could have done anything.

Roll on the 2019 WC. Johnny Sexton performs for 70min in a lot of games now. He'll be 34 in 2019 and it's easy to see him injured, leg injuries or HIA problems especially. If Joey Carberry and we'll say for arguments sake Ian Keatley get injured... We'd love to make the call to Jackson...

That's why a year long or calendar year ban until 1st January 2019 would have been good from a rugby point of view.

I do recognise that everything involved in this case has to be looked at far beyond rugby. But as stated previously i think the punishment was unnecessarily extreme.

irishproduce

NAGDEFI wrote: »

In the old days we used hear a lot about sin and redemption. Even Johnny Cash sang a song about redemption.

Why couldn't these men be given a shot at redemption in Ireland? Was there no way they could have been suspended for 1 year and allowed do some charitable work during that period and return to play for the province they were born in and play for their country?

We're all guilty of wrong doing in some form or other. But it's a bleak world when you can never redeem yourself... At least good old fashioned Christian values allowed you to atone for sins.

What is this world... One strike and your out?

I argued all along here that i didn't like those whatsapp messages, i wanted standards and example, but surely punishment has to be appropriate for any wrong doing.

The finality of it all has hit me this evening..a 24 and 26 year old can NEVER play for their province or country. They were found not guilty of rape and didn't kill anyone.

I feel a backdated suspension from 1st March 2018 to 1st March 2019 would have been more than adequate punishment.

I feel a bit fcuked up with people playing God this evening with these lifelong bans. These fellas don't want to play for Exeter or Bordeaux. I'm a Laois man and in GAA you may aswell make me play with Sligo (no disrespect just naming a county). I'd have zero passion to play with them.

You look at as*holes like Don King, who murdered and all the stuff he's got away with re. embezzlement etc. What he gets away with.

Killing flies with canon balls.

Why do you say never play for Ireland again?
I didn't read that, maybe I missed it - genuinely.

I don't see how they can't come back after "atoning" someplace else for a year or two.

almostover

irishproduce wrote: »

I think all of us with a lick of common sense are well aware that little consideration is given to the slight of any party.
What matters is what the mob think and the mob came out in force before Ulster's game the other night.
Show business depends on punters wanting to take part in the show. Rugby at that level is show business.
The audience won't participate if the actors have been rejected by them.

However, there is more available to the lads than an Irish audience.

It all smacks of hypocrisy when the airport in Belfast is named after Northern Ireland's most famous womaniser, George Best. We've gone from idolising the likes of Best who openly bragged about their sexual conquests to hounding young men out of their own country for having a threesome and sending disrespectful texts. Progress? Or have things gone too far?

goz83

irishproduce wrote: »

Well she's not really anonymous anymore. Most of us know her name at this stage. Anyone I said it to knew the name before I could say anything

I was talking in general...not the belfast case. And i don’t know the complainants name in that case.

Appledreams15 wrote: »

What a strange argument. When he is talking about his own feelings, why wouldnt I believe him. Bizarre argument.

What is strange about it? You didn’t believe anything else the defendants said. It was his “feeling” and belief that the sex was consensual. You didn’t believe that either.

Appledreams15

goz83 wrote: »

Falsely accused men don’t want sympathy. They want justice. When it is proven that someone has made a false accusation, they should get thrown into prison the same way convicted rapists are thrown into prison. Both are scum.

There is conflicting research everywhere, but lets take thise figures for now and round them off. For every 10 alleged rapes, 1 of them will be proven to be false. That’s a lot of false allegations. There aren’t many jail cells with false accusers in them, are there? Usually nothing happens even when it is proven that the accuser is lying, or blatantly admits it.

Yes, that’s correct. My mistake.

Not Guilty. What were the messages Paddy Jackson sent? Can you quote them and then honestly say he deserved to be sacked for the single message he sent?

Some wouldn’t be happy until these lads were hanging from a rope. Anonymous bullies is all most of them are.

And now you are believing what Paddy Jackson says? Well, that’s certainly a change. Believe him when it suits you eh?

What a strange argument. When he is talking about his own feelings, why wouldnt I believe him. Bizarre argument.