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Should gay conversion therapy be banned in Ireland?

freshpopcorn

At the moment it's illegal for minors to attend this type of therapy but I think the government are extending the ban access to it for all adults.
I support the ban for minors and probably for adults but some people might have to travel or be forced to countries where these therapies are legal if we do ban it for whatever reason.
I don't believe these therapies work but then again I don't really know much about.

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freshpopcorn

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Isnt that exploiting their poor emotional well being?

To be honest I don't know much about these gay conversion therapies and I don't know if you can stop being gay. (I doubt it to be honest)
I do know of a lad who'd be a little older than me who wanted to go to one about a decade ago and he couldn't find one in Ireland and couldn't afford to travel to the US. He wouldn't have being overly religious but he simply wasn't happy being gay. He wasn't out but he told a few people his feelings. From about when he was sixteen to twenty two. He tried a group in Dublin for gay teens/young people. He never fitted in. He went to college in Dublin joined societies and wasn't happy. He didn't fit in the club/bar scene and when he was doing placements in college. He was a guy into GAA, farming, etc and I think he heard a lot of homophobia because people thought he was one off the lads.
He was terribly unhappy.
He decided to block all the porn sites on his computer, left Dublin, got a job locally and went back to local clubs and organisations,exercised, kept himself busy. I haven't much contact with him now but last time I met him he said he was the happiest he ever was now. He's in a relationship with a woman now with a few years, their engaged and are building a house. She know's he was a bit wild on nights out. He believes what he did was right for him.

Gbear

If it's talking in general terms on a forum, yeah, ban it away.

In terms of the legal framework required to do it in practice, I would imagine it might be tricky.

If someone wants to spend money on a guy who says he can bring you infinite happiness by slapping you around with a rubber chicken, it doesn't really feel like something that needs regulating.

If someone wants to run a camp that abducts people, tortures them physically and emotionally, holds them against their will and so on, then it's perhaps another matter.

You couldn't have it encompass merely being told you're not gay, or that being gay is a sin, because then you'd have to ban most religion.

You can pay people to do a whole bunch of things to you, or volunteer to have them done for free. Being allowed to make factual claims on health benefits is another matter, that I believe is already covered by advertising law.

It's probably not as straightforward to implement a ban in practice as it seems.

kunst nugget

freshpopcorn wrote: »

He decided to block all the porn sites on his computer, left Dublin, got a job locally and went back to local clubs and organisations,exercised, kept himself busy. I haven't much contact with him now but last time I met him he said he was the happiest he ever was now. He's in a relationship with a woman now with a few years, their engaged and are building a house. She know's he was a bit wild on nights out. He believes what he did was right for him.

Can't see that ending badly at all… whatsoever…

freshpopcorn

kunst nugget wrote: »

Can't see that ending badly at all… whatsoever…

Well he says if he carried on the way he was he'd be dead now. He's in a relationship with nearly eight years now. He generally believes he did the right thing. He loves life and has everything he wanted in life.

Class of 82

freshpopcorn wrote: »

To be honest I don't know much about these gay conversion therapies and I don't know if you can stop being gay. (I doubt it to be honest)
I do know of a lad who'd be a little older than me who wanted to go to one about a decade ago and he couldn't find one in Ireland and couldn't afford to travel to the US. He wouldn't have being overly religious but he simply wasn't happy being gay. He wasn't out but he told a few people his feelings. From about when he was sixteen to twenty two. He tried a group in Dublin for gay teens/young people. He never fitted in. He went to college in Dublin joined societies and wasn't happy. He didn't fit in the club/bar scene and when he was doing placements in college. He was a guy into GAA, farming, etc and I think he heard a lot of homophobia because people thought he was one off the lads.
He was terribly unhappy.
He decided to block all the porn sites on his computer, left Dublin, got a job locally and went back to local clubs and organisations,exercised, kept himself busy. I haven't much contact with him now but last time I met him he said he was the happiest he ever was now. He's in a relationship with a woman now with a few years, their engaged and are building a house. She know's he was a bit wild on nights out. He believes what he did was right for him.

Do you think he has some man on man 'fun' on the side? I've met a few through the years who to the outside world seem like happily married men but engage in no strings attached sex with other guys. Each to their own.

freshpopcorn

Class of 82 wrote: »

Do you think he has some man on man 'fun' on the side? I've met a few through the years who to the outside world seem like happily married men but engage in no strings attached sex with other guys. Each to their own.

From what I know of him I'd say not a chance. He wouldn't throw everything away for a bit on the side be it they were a man/woman.

EdgeCase

There's a Sinn Fein bill proposing to ban conversion therapy and I sincerely hope that it's not blocked on ridiculous party political basis.

conorhal

EdgeCase wrote: »

There's a Sinn Fein bill proposing to ban conversion therapy and I sincerely hope that it's not blocked on ridiculous party political basis.

I'm curious, is this even a thing here? I thought this stuff only existed in evangelical churches in America. Are there organizations actively promoting this 'therapy' here?

tritium

Generally it’s nonsense so yeah I’d be inclined to bring it under the wing of medical treatments, assess it and then ban it for being ineffective tripe

If someone has issues with their sexuality there are likely better and more proven approaches to support them

Of course I’d also take that approach with a whole load of other things we inexplicably give a pass to: circumcision of minors for no real reason, lots of quack alternative therapies etc.

DEFTLEFTHAND

conorhal wrote: »

I'm curious, is this even a thing here? I thought this stuff only existed in evangelical churches in America. Are there organizations actively promoting this 'therapy' here?

That's the pray away the gay stuff.

Apparently there is also actual recognised cognitive thearpy for gay conversion.

paw patrol

JupiterKid wrote: »

It’s grossly misguided at best, despicable and evil at worst. There should really be no debate on this issue.

The 23% who voted no - hang your collective ignorant homophobic heads in deep shame.

I voted no.
I believe in freedom of choice. If a person is unhappy being gay and are willing to do this ...le them
Same with a trans who wants their bits rearranged...
I think both are mad but so are a lot of things...I don't want to ban them...so why ban this?

Are you pissed cos you feel insulted that somebody wouldn't like being gay?
Who made you the moral police?

in a direct answer to your point - you don't know me.
away with you and your accusations.

pitifulgod

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

That's the pray away the gay stuff.

Apparently there is also actual recognised cognitive thearpy for gay conversion.

Recognised by who? The psychological community don't recognise it...

Berserker

pitifulgod wrote: »

I'm inclined to say he is still gay.

Why, what gives you the authority to say that? You never met this person. I have and he was very open and sincere about his conversion.

Trasna1 wrote: »

Surely if this individual now self identifies as straight, he's now straight.

I agree with you 100%.

wakka12 wrote: »

I would support them doing it if they believed it would make them happy but would make them fully aware theres no evidence what so ever it will make them straight

Are you qualified to tell them that?

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

That's the pray away the gay stuff.

Not all of it. The one the chap I posted about went to was some liberal, non-religious organisation. This guy was an avid atheist. He never shut up moaning about televangelism in particular.

Berserker

JupiterKid wrote: »

The 23% who voted no - hang your collective ignorant homophobic heads in deep shame.

What are you talking about? I voted no. I know someone who has been through this and it turned his life around. Was he supposed to be gay for the rest of his life, just to keep you happy?

Subcomandante Marcos

All unlicenced psychotherapy should be banned. Whether it be gay conversation therapy or dianetics. They are dangerous, abusive, manipulative and cause untold damage to the victims of them.

pitifulgod

Berserker wrote: »

Why, what gives you the authority to say that? You never met this person. I have and he was very open and sincere about his conversion.

There is no scientific evidence that one can change their sexual orientation, conversion therapy relies upon pathologising one's orientation. However being gay is not an illness. Your friend may simply be have attracted to both sexes in the first place or he's putting on an act. Regardless, he has had no biblical conversions.

dr.fuzzenstein

Berserker wrote: »

What are you talking about? I voted no. I know someone who has been through this and it turned his life around. Was he supposed to be gay for the rest of his life, just to keep you happy?

He still is gay. He's just forcing himself to lice against his sexual orientation.
Imagine if there was massive societal pressure on you to be gay.
With the right therapy it might be possible that you could force yourself to marry a person of the same sex and have sex with them.
Would you like it and enjoy it?
Highly doubtful. But just imagine forcing yourself through that every day of your life.
You. Cannot. Change. Sexual. Orientation.

But you can delude yourself and live a lie.

freshpopcorn

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

He still is gay. He's just forcing himself to lice against his sexual orientation.
Imagine if there was massive societal pressure on you to be gay.
With the right therapy it might be possible that you could force yourself to marry a person of the same sex and have sex with them.
Would you like it and enjoy it?
Highly doubtful. But just imagine forcing yourself through that every day of your life.
You. Cannot. Change. Sexual. Orientation.

But you can delude yourself and live a lie.

I suppose if he's happy that's all that counts and it doesn't effect his family life. It wouldn't bother me.

jaxxx

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

He still is gay. He's just forcing himself to lice against his sexual orientation.
Imagine if there was massive societal pressure on you to be gay.
With the right therapy it might be possible that you could force yourself to marry a person of the same sex and have sex with them.
Would you like it and enjoy it?
Highly doubtful. But just imagine forcing yourself through that every day of your life.
You. Cannot. Change. Sexual. Orientation.

But you can delude yourself and live a lie.

Key word right here!

screamer

If it Is something that people can chose to go to... why ban it? , nanny state Ireland in full swing again.

dr.fuzzenstein

screamer wrote: »

If it Is something that people can chose to go to... why ban it? , nanny state Ireland in full swing again.

It may not be realistically possible to ban it as such, one would have to look at the whole spectrum of quack treatments such as angel or crystal therapy, remote spiritual healing, tarot card reading, spiritual mediums, astrologers, hypnotism and any kind of therapy offered by people with no qualifications and questionable claims.
But if we look at all the other treatments, they usually try to achieve something positive, something healing and they may achieve a positive result.
Gay conversion is something very, very different.
It's telling people that their sexual orientation is wrong.
It's like telling someone their skin color is wrong.
You could offer black conversion therapy. With skin bleaching, wigs and plastic surgery any black person could be white.
Now you see how fcuked up this is?
Maybe it can't be banned, but it would be possible to ban unlicensed quack practitioners to offer questionable treatment.
People complain about nanny state, but if sh*t like this exists, people need to be protected against quacks and fraudsters.

s7ryf3925pivug

Criminalise it and all other hocus pocus shammery as the cynical and fraudulent activities they are.

This one promotes a stupid and regressive view of human sexuality too.

Mrs OBumble

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Imagine if there was massive societal pressure on you to be gay.
With the right therapy it might be possible that you could force yourself to marry a person of the same sex and have sex with them.
Would you like it and enjoy it?
Highly doubtful. But just imagine forcing yourself through that every day of your life.
You. Cannot. Change. Sexual. Orientation.

But you can delude yourself and live a lie.

I guess you're young and have a high sex drive.

Most people as they age realise that companionship is far more important than fc*uking, and that you can get bodily pleasure in all sorts of ways.

And that just because you're attracted to someone doesn't mean you have to have sex with them.

Wibbs

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

He still is gay. He's just forcing himself to lice against his sexual orientation.
Imagine if there was massive societal pressure on you to be gay.
With the right therapy it might be possible that you could force yourself to marry a person of the same sex and have sex with them.
Would you like it and enjoy it?
Highly doubtful. But just imagine forcing yourself through that every day of your life.
You. Cannot. Change. Sexual. Orientation.

But you can delude yourself and live a lie.

This. In my teens I ran a similar thought experiment of imagining waking up in a world where being gay was the accepted norm, that being straight would mark me out as abnormal and how would I be able to deal with it. My conclusion then and remains today that I doubt I'd be able to. I've always carried a sympathy and respect for gay folks because of that realisation.

No way in hell would any "therapy" make me anything but what I am. The willy wants what the willy wants as it were. I couldn't begin to imagine the purgatory of having to live a lie like that. As so many men and women have in the past and sadly too many still do today and not just in the various backward cultural crapholes out there.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I guess you're young and have a high sex drive.

Most people as they age realise that companionship is far more important than fc*uking, and that you can get bodily pleasure in all sorts of ways.

And that just because you're attracted to someone doesn't mean you have to have sex with them.

Which is all very well and I would partially agree, at least for some people, but it's not changing one's sexual orientation. Nada to do with being young with a high sex drive. At 50 I'm no different in that respect than when I was 20. I still wouldn't live with another bloke as a "couple"(or for that matter live with a woman as a couple with no "fc*uking" involved). The willy still wants what the willy wants.

YFlyer

Assetbacked wrote: »

For those that choose not to be gay and their parents want them to be, give them the treatment! Then sterilize them.

Wat?

kunst nugget

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I suppose if he's happy that's all that counts and it doesn't effect his family life. It wouldn't bother me.

How could it not affect his family life? He has decided to partner up with someone he has no sexual attraction with so that he can live what he deems to be a normal life. I think it's completely unfair on his partner as well.

kunst nugget

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I guess you're young and have a high sex drive.

Most people as they age realise that companionship is far more important than fc*uking, and that you can get bodily pleasure in all sorts of ways.

And that just because you're attracted to someone doesn't mean you have to have sex with them.

All our sex drives are going to diminish, that's a given. You'd still want your partner to be attracted to you at a sexual level and not be with you because he wants to fulfill a fantasy that he's straight.

I wouldn't want to spend the rest of my days spooning my best friend - great lad and all as he is - because I would want a partner that I'm sexually attracted to - someone that I can form the fullest connection possible with. A connection that will last beyond the wild, riding years and still be present in older years in an affection and tenderness towards each other that two friends could never replicate.

JupiterKid

Right. The views of pure homophobic hatred and ignorance expressed on this thread have sickened me to my stomach, as a gay man who struggled for years over my true sexuality.

I think this thread should be reported to the media. And hopefully it will.

Vile beyond belief.

Nettle Soup

We are still a very backward country going by some of the comments here.

wexie

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Practically you can't ban this in particular, but you could make it illegal for anyone who isn't a proper doctor, psychologist or psychotherapist to offer any kind of therapy.

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

All unlicenced psychotherapy should be banned. Whether it be gay conversation therapy or dianetics. They are dangerous, abusive, manipulative and cause untold damage to the victims of them.

This!

I think it is absolutely shocking that in this day and age there is no legal protection or framework to stop this. I asked a few professionals and they all told me the same thing (I'd be delighted if someone told me I was misinformed).

Anybody, regardless of qualifications or professional registration or any such thing can set up shop and call themselves a (psycho)therapist.

Which is just....mind boggling...

(psychologist is something else entirely thankfully)