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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

Sam Quentin

Strange.. I'm kinda relieved it's all over.

http://www.thejournal.ie/belfast-rape-trial-verdict-3928309-Mar2018/

Mod Note Keep this relevant to this thread and don't bring up others. ie the eighth amendment thread.

MOD NOTE By the way don't post anything from members on the jury that's appearing online.

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RuMan

Ulster boys doing it 4 Jacko tonight. Incredible professionalism.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

He didn't give people carte blanche to accuse him of rape. Of course he is going to sue anyone who infers that. So would I.

I don't condone those posts those people made- he's found not guilty. That's that.

but now he's trying to soften his tone - he's appealing to court of public opinion by issuing this statement today. And as member of the court of public opinion, I hereby reject his statement as balderdash.

[Deleted User]

C__MC wrote: »

For me I don’t think Jackson’s apology is to late. .

And i'm sure any PR company worth their salt would agree with you. :pac:

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't condone those posts those people made- he's found not guilty. That's that.

but now he's trying to soften his tone - he's appealing to court of public opinion by issuing this statement today. And as member of the court of public opinion, I hereby reject his statement as balderdash.

And because there is a no win in this particular court, and minds are made up no matter what a trial found and no matter what they say, I think the IRFU will face them down.
Suspend the lads for a while longer and then show that they will not be dictated to by unreasonableness, because that would set a dangerous precedent where a morally outraged public decide what happens in rugby.

RuMan

Bonus point win and Jacko coming back soon. Fantastic day 4 Irish rugby football.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And because there is a no win in this particular court, and minds are made up no matter what a trial found and no matter what they say, I think the IRFU will face them down.
Suspend the lads for a while longer and then show that they will not be dictated to by unreasonableness, because that would set a dangerous precedent where a morally outraged public decide what happens in rugby.

Well I don't think it's as simple as that. What about the sponsors? IRFU is a business- I think it's back to what the court judge said- there's no "emotion" here.
If public aren't on board, sponsors aren't on board. It's pounds, shillings and pence now.

C__MC

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And i'm sure any PR company worth their salt would agree with you. :pac:

We will see but you’d be surprised- didn’t Aaron smith of New Zealand over come adversity to continue to play for the most successful sports nation in rugby union. AIG seems to have no issue

RabbleRouser2k

C__MC wrote: »

We will see but you’d be surprised- didn’t Aaron smith of New Zealand over come adversity to continue to play for the most successful sports nation in rugby union. AIG seems to have no issue

RuMan wrote: »

Bonus point win and Jacko coming back soon. Fantastic day 4 Irish rugby football.

Hold your horses-Jackson is not coming back. In all likelihood he may never return to Irish Rugby.

Ongoing protests and writing campaigns alone are gonna make his return unlikely.

And as a spotlight is shone on his past actions, it's going to make it incredibly difficult for Irfu to allow his return.

C__MC wrote: »

We will see but you’d be surprised- didn’t Aaron smith of New Zealand over come adversity to continue to play for the most successful sports nation in rugby union. AIG seems to have no issue

And yet despite it clearly being a consensual act, with Smith I mean, he was sent home by his team in disgrace. And given a written warning. No court case, and no woman left distressed.
Still had a major investigation carried out. The problem arises in that a rape complainant is allowed remain anonymous-so it's much harder to garner what did go on that night.

FrancieBrady

Deleted User wrote: »

Well I don't think it's as simple as that. What about the sponsors? IRFU is a business- I think it's back to what the court judge said- there's no "emotion" here.
If public aren't on board, sponsors aren't on board. It's pounds, shillings and pence now.

You are assuming the public the sponsors want to connect with care that much.
There has been little to know polling of thoughts on it.

The guys spent 9 weeks of a greulling trial and are innocent and have apologised for the whatsapp.
I think most would allow them earn their living now and would never have been on the 'mobs' side anyway.

RuMan

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Hold your horses-Jackson is not coming back. In all likelihood he may never return to Irish Rugby.

Ongoing protests and writing campaigns alone are gonna make his return unlikely.

And as a spotlight is shone on his past actions, it's going to make it incredibly difficult for Irfu to allow his return.

Yes a great performance and you could really see the boys wanted to do it for Jacko tonight. When you add a returning International outhalf and Jordan Murphy into the mix things are starting to come together.

Its been a really positive end to the week for Ulster rugby. I suspect the boys were inspired by Jackos humbleness today and along with all of us are really looking forward to welcoming him back to rugby football.

Tell me how

RuMan wrote:

Yes a great performance and you could really see the boys wanted to do it for Jacko tonight.

I suspect the boys were inspired by Jackos humbleness today...

Nearly getting sick into my hands here. Ugh.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You are assuming the public the sponsors want to connect with care that much.
There has been little to know polling of thoughts on it.

The guys spent 9 weeks of a greulling trial and are innocent and have apologised for the whatsapp.
I think most would allow them earn their living now and would never have been on the 'mobs' side anyway.

You'll need a poll for that one dude.

In the meantime, the sponsors are crunching their own numbers, and estimating what the business decision will be- you're partly right, it's out of the hands of the public, but it's totally in the control of the sponsors.

I've being objective here BTW- but sponsors will take public opinion into account- because that's all about brand, which is all about pounds, shillings and pence.

RuMan

Tell me how wrote: »

Nearly getting sick into my hands here. Ugh.

Yes an emotional week for us all. Great that we can all move on now and focus again on Jackos performance on the rugby football pitch for Ulster and Ireland.

martingriff

I am not sure is people are serious with Jackson playing in the tour in summer. 1st of all he is not fit and has not played in over a year so no way he be on any team. 2nd in his position we have Sexton, Carberry, Keatley and the Carty so he is 5th at the best. Never mind if Munster start giving J J Hanrahan a run

foxyladyxx

martingriff wrote: »

I am not sure is people are serious with Jackson playing in the tour in summer. 1st of all he is not fit and has not played in over a year so no way he be on any team. 2nd in his position we have Sexton, Carberry, Keatley and the Carty so he is 5th at the best. Never mind if Munster start giving J J Hanrahan a run

Jackson and Olding have been training separately apparently but obviously they have had no match practice. He was the number 1 behind Sexton before all this blew up.

RuMan

martingriff wrote: »

I am not sure is people are serious with Jackson playing in the tour in summer. 1st of all he is not fit and has not played in over a year so no way he be on any team. 2nd in his position we have Sexton, Carberry, Keatley and the Carty so he is 5th at the best. Never mind if Munster start giving J J Hanrahan a run

Ideally we'll get him back for Ulster ASAP. You are correct Autumn internationals may be a more realistic timeframe for Jackos return but there's an argument for getting him back in the squad before that.

Keatley isnt really international class and while i like Carbery and think he's a great option off the bench not sure he is starting international OH material just yet. If something happens to Sexton we need a viable alternative like Jacko. May as well be sooner rather then later.

Newdawn11

RuMan wrote: »

Do you not think there could be argument for starting Jacko with Carbery on the bench and giving Sexton a rest?

Throw him in at deep end and try and get him involved in a bit of action straight away.[/quot

NAGDEFI

tretorn wrote: »

They arent spending too much time on porn websites, men who cant attract women do that.

Jackson and Oldings problem was there were too many women throwing themselves at them, can you believe they had a consensual threesome on a Monday night and they went out again and found another woman to play with them on Tuesday night. What in Gods name is in this for a woman, does she seriously think Jackson and Olding have any interest in her. How in a place the size of Belfast are Jackson, Olding and the rest of the rugby team finding enough women to share between them, is the supply endless, the case certainly has shone a funny light on Belfast women, they are certainly fast bells by all accounts.

Women who hang around night clubs waiting to be allowed into VIP sections really need to take a serious look at themselves and maybe go to some classes to learn some self respect.

Belfast women always had a rep..

'They pulled my hair, they stole my comb But that's all right till I go home. She is handsome, she is pretty She is the bell of Belfast city She is counting one, two, three Please won't you tell me who is she. Albert Mooney says he loves her All the boys ...'

blanch152

Deleted User wrote: »

You'll need a poll for that one dude.

In the meantime, the sponsors are crunching their own numbers, and estimating what the business decision will be- you're partly right, it's out of the hands of the public, but it's totally in the control of the sponsors.

I've being objective here BTW- but sponsors will take public opinion into account- because that's all about brand, which is all about pounds, shillings and pence.

You are forgetting employment law. They were found innocent, unless there is something in their contract in respect of behaviour that is enforceable, they will have a case for restraint of trade and loss of earnings.

NAGDEFI

RuMan wrote: »

Its been a fantastic day for Irish rugby football.

Would be a great gesture for Jacko to consider giving match day tickets to Ruth Coppinger and Aodhan O'Riordan to witness his home international return in the Autumn internationals.

Yourself and Jacko seem quite close, i'd say you'll be in the corporate box.

Tim Robbins

martingriff wrote: »

I am not sure is people are serious with Jackson playing in the tour in summer. 1st of all he is not fit and has not played in over a year so no way he be on any team. 2nd in his position we have Sexton, Carberry, Keatley and the Carty so he is 5th at the best. Never mind if Munster start giving J J Hanrahan a run

Ross Byrne ahead of some of them. Don't forget there's a lad called Madigan as well.

joe40

blanch152 wrote: »

You are forgetting employment law. They were found innocent, unless there is something in their contract in respect of behaviour that is enforceable, they will have a case for restraint of trade and loss of earnings.

Professional sport is so tied up with corporate sponsors I wouldn't be surprised if there was something in relation to behaviour unbecoming or such like, but really haven't a clue how that will work
Personally I can't see him back in the national squad, there is just too much baggage and sponsors would be nervous. Combined with his lack of match time and the fact ireland won a grand slam without him, he may be surplus to requirements at this stage.

NAGDEFI

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Ross Byrne ahead of some of them. Don't forget there's a lad called Madigan as well.

Johnny McPhillips, McCarthy.. a huge cue ahead of him now and he may never reach the standards he reached against Scotland in the 2013 6 Nations again..

FrancieBrady

joe40 wrote: »

Professional sport is so tied up with corporate sponsors I wouldn't be surprised if there was something in relation to behaviour unbecoming or such like, but really haven't a clue how that will work
Personally I can't see him back in the national, there is just too much baggage and sponsors would be nervous. Combined with his lack of match time and the fact ireland one a grand slam without him, he may be surplus to requirements at this stage.

BBC spoke to two Ulster players at half time and neither were aware of such a clause in their contracts. Although they could not definitively say.
You also have to remember the state Ulster rugby is in, they cannot afford to lose talent like that atm and they haven't the money for huge pay offs or compo.

A lot of factors other than sponsors will affect the decision.

BoatMad

Th only thing I take from it all , is these things should be held in camera , as they are in the Republic

[Deleted User]

blanch152 wrote: »

You are forgetting employment law. They were found innocent, .

I thought they were found "not guilty" ?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/all-four-defendants-found-not-guilty-on-all-charges-in-rugby-rape-trial-36744024.html

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I thought they were found "not guilty" ?

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/all-four-defendants-found-not-guilty-on-all-charges-in-rugby-rape-trial-36744024.html

There is a presumption of innocence , hence not guilty verifies that presumption that they are innocent

joe40

FrancieBrady wrote: »

BBC spoke to two Ulster players at half time and neither were aware of such a clause in their contracts. Although they could not definitively say.
You also have to remember the state Ulster rugby is in, they cannot afford to lose talent like that atm and they haven't the money for huge pay offs or compo.

A lot of factors other than sponsors will affect the decision.

Again just speculation on my part but I can see them playing for ulster again, where it is more hardcore rugby support.
The national team is totally different, a much wider fan base that goes further than diehard rugby supporters.
Probably peope like me that don't understand about 50% of the penalty decisions

[Deleted User]

BoatMad wrote: »

There is a presumption of innocence , hence not guilty verifies that presumption that they are innocent

I'm aware of the presumption of innocence.

BBDBB

blanch152 wrote: »

You are forgetting employment law. They were found innocent, unless there is something in their contract in respect of behaviour that is enforceable, they will have a case for restraint of trade and loss of earnings.

joe40 wrote: »

Professional sport is so tied up with corporate sponsors I wouldn't be surprised if there was something in relation to behaviour unbecoming or such like, but really haven't a clue how that will work
Personally I can't see him back in the national squad, there is just too much baggage and sponsors would be nervous. Combined with his lack of match time and the fact ireland one a grand slam without him, he may be surplus to requirements at this stage.

I think the reality is somewhere between the two

The balance for sponsors is different to Ulster/IRFU

At the moment Olding & Jackson have become figures of hate and a target for those with a legitimate complaint, thats not good for business to be associated with

However
1) They were found not guilty of all charges (in under 4 hours- very quickly)
2) Their unsavoury texts were a private conversation that would have remained so without the court case
3) They have already served two years (approx) away from their chosen profession and missed out already on potential honours.

Ulster/IRFU have a difficult decision to make,
The reality is that public opinion vacillates and swings, time dampens fervour and public denouncements from official bodies sound great but don't necessarily mean permanent decisions are an absolute finality

My guess is that they'll delay a decision, the season is nearly over, they'll re-evaluate their eligibility and suitability for starting next season and let the international prospects become problematic or a non-issue as and when form and injury dictates