Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

wexie wrote: »

No....No I don't

You know why? Cause I'm a grownup, married to another grownup.

And if one of us wakes the other one up looking for a little jiggery-pokery and one of us isn't in the mood usually a grunt or just turning over suffices to get the message across.

Y'know....like grownups

Not at all what we are talking about.

emeraldwinter wrote: »

Would that not be "Person ?"

He's talking to a man who, going by his posts, leans towards being attracted to females.

What is the point of your post?

Will I Am Not

Silentcorner wrote: »

Sadly, I'm inclined to agree...

Yeah, so then we haven’t come to that.
I feel dumber having watched that video. A video on how to make the tea would have been more insightful.

Understanding consent isn’t an issue. The type of person that engages in sexual behaviour with a sleeping person, a person who says no etc are not going to watch that video and think “oh, I actually shouldn’t do that”

emeraldwinter

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Not at all what we are talking about.

Yes it is. one side is taking about raping a sleeping person. The other is talking about how you arrive at consent from waking someone up.

emeraldwinter wrote: »

Would that not be "Person ?"

I have taken a gamble on the fact that this guy is straight. If you want to be pedantic or if he wants to confirm he is bisexual then you can stick in person instead of she.

Happy?

The question was directed at this guy

FrancieBrady

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Simple question.

Can't make this any simpler.

If you engaged in a sexual act on a girl while she was asleep and she woke up shocked and freaked out.

Would you find it absurd or ridiculous that she may report you? Do you think you have just committed a crime under Irish law.

Yes, No?

Just yes or No.

As opposed to the the sexual acts you engaged in a few hours before?

Yes, I would find that absurd and I think most normal people would, hence no court cases.

This is not about performing a sex act on a random person that just happens to end up in your bed. This is somebody you have had intimate relations with a few hours before.
Let any man say here that he has not initiated sex with a woman he has a relationship with (however short) and I will say they are a liar. That goes for women too, I can't think of a relationship I have been in were a woman has not signaled her desire for sex at certain times.

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Simple question.

Can't make this any simpler.

If you engaged in a sexual act on a girl while she was asleep and she woke up shocked and freaked out. (which, unbeknownst to you may be a pretty normal reaction for some)

Would you find it absurd or ridiculous that she may report you? Do you think you have just committed a crime under Irish law.

Yes, No?

Just yes or No.

If i had sex with a woman and the 2 of us nodded off i wouldnt see the problem with waking her up with oral. She would wake quickly and as an adult could tell me to continue or stop and as an adult i would comply. The opposite has happened to me on a number of occasions.

Now clearly i am not going into random peoples rooms and wake them up with oral sex which would be an entirely different matter.

Its complicated being an adult.

emeraldwinter wrote: »

Yes it is. one side is taking about raping a sleeping person. The other is talking about how you arrive at consent from waking someone up.

Nope, everybody is literally talking about performing a sex act on a sleeping person.

You really need to keep up.

emeraldwinter wrote: »

Yes it is. one side is taking about raping a sleeping person. The other is talking about how you arrive at consent from waking someone up.

No, I suggest you read the last few pages.

The poster deems it acceptable to engage in a sexual act while they are asleep. The person then wakes up, rejects their advances or allows them to continue. They are two entirely different stages.

First stage asleep
Second stage awake.

RuMan wrote: »

If i had sex with a woman and the 2 of us nodded off i wouldnt see the problem with waking her up with oral. She would wake quickly and as an adult could tell me to continue or stop and as an adult i would comply. The opposite has happened to me on a number of occasions.

Now clearly i am not going into random peoples rooms and wake them up with oral sex which would be an entirely different matter.

Its complicated being an adult.

Except the OP asked would you find it absurd or ridiculous if they reported you.

Once you initiate an act on a sleeping person, in your bed or not, you are leaving yourself open for a sexual assault case.

emeraldwinter

Faugheen wrote: »

Nope, everybody is literally talking about performing a sex act on a sleeping person.

You really need to keep up.

The Talking Bread wrote: »

No, I suggest you read the last few pages.

The poster deems it acceptable to engage in a sexual act while they are asleep. The person then wakes up, rejects their advances or allows them to continue. They are two entirely different stages.

First stage asleep
Second stage awake.

Starting from sleeping. Performing an act on either a lover or someone you are currently having a 1 night stand with. Now considering no one has presented any cases and the courts have not been flooded. Most adults know what is what. The law is not as clear as trying to be made out. Consent is arrived at using the entire text and mitigating factors and on a case by case basis.

Edit* just to add this may not even get passed the Guards or even be taken up by the DPP.

FrancieBrady

The Talking Bread wrote: »

No, I suggest you read the last few pages.

The poster deems it acceptable to engage in a sexual act while they are asleep. The person then wakes up, rejects their advances or allows them to continue. They are two entirely different stages.

First stage asleep
Second stage awake.

The original post lost in the sensationalist sub Catholic church nonsense.
The act is designed to WAKE the person up in a pleasurable way. If they aren't pleasured - stop.
i.e. sort it out like the consenting adults you were a few hours ago.

RuMan wrote: »

If i had sex with a woman and the 2 of us nodded off i wouldnt see the problem with waking her up with oral. She would wake quickly and as an adult could tell me to continue or stop and as an adult i would comply. The opposite has happened to me on a number of occasions.

Now clearly i am not going into random peoples rooms and wake them up with oral sex which would be an entirely different matter.

Its complicated being an adult.

I asked you a question. I am just asking for an answer.

If you engaged in a sexual act on a girl while she was asleep and she woke up shocked and freaked out. (which, unbeknownst to you may be a pretty normal reaction for some)

Would you find it absurd or ridiculous that she may report you? Do you think you have just committed a crime under Irish law.

Yes, No?

Just yes or No.

If you don't want to answer, don't bother replying.

And, yes, you do have some complications! You should really addess them before you get yourself in trouble!

kylith

If you are in a relationship with someone and you have had a conversation wherein they have said that they have no issue with being woken up with oral then that’s fine. I have had a partner on the past tell me they would quite like this, but I personally felt uncomfortable performing a sex act on someone who was asleep.

If I had a one night stand where we had perfectly usual sex then fell asleep, and I woke up to them performing oral on me I would probably freak out, get the fck out of there as quickly as I could, and confide in my friends about the fcking weirdo who thought he could help himself to my body while I was asleep. I would not consider this normal behaviour and I don’t think I know anyone who would.

Faugheen wrote: »

Except the OP asked would you find it absurd or ridiculous if they reported you.

Once you initiate an act on a sleeping person, in your bed or not, you are leaving yourself open for a sexual assault case.

Yes i would. And i doubt any court would convict me if we had been having sex shortly before and i stopped once she requested it.

wexie

The Talking Bread wrote: »

No, I suggest you read the last few pages.

The poster deems it acceptable to engage in a sexual act while they are asleep. The person then wakes up, rejects their advances or allows them to continue. They are two entirely different stages.

First stage asleep
Second stage awake.

Yes, and the suggestion that when that happens between two adults in a sexual relationship and it's automatically a crime is pure and utter bollox. However long or short that relationship may be.

The reason this is in the law is to stop random people from shagging other random people when passed out (drunk) at parties etc. etc.

Suggesting otherwise is ...well....I won't finish that sentence as I've a pretty decent record here on Boards and I'd quite like to keep it that way.

Silentcorner

Will I Am Not wrote: »

Yeah, so then we haven’t come to that.
I feel dumber having watched that video. A video on how to make the tea would have been more insightful.

Understanding consent isn’t an issue. The type of person that engages in sexual behaviour with a sleeping person, a person who says no etc are not going to watch that video and think “oh, I actually shouldn’t do that”

Understanding consent is a massive problem....as evident in this very thread...

Care to suggest alternatives...

PaddyWilliams

I had an ex who would frequently wake me up with oral sex. Didn't bother me in the slightest, but I can perfectly understand why someone could be freaked out by it. It's a topic that probably needs to be broached before actually doing it.

emeraldwinter wrote: »

Starting from sleeping. Performing an act on either a lover or someone you are currently having a 1 night stand with. Now considering no one has presented any cases and the courts have not been flooded. Most adults know what is what. The law is not as clear as trying to be made out. Consent is arrived at using the entire text and mitigating factors and on a case by case basis.

You're chatting the most bollocks in this thread and that's saying something.

How do you know the courts aren't flooded with these cases? Just because they're not reported on?

Silentcorner

wexie wrote: »

Yes, and the suggestion that when that happens between two adults in a sexual relationship and it's automatically a crime is pure and utter bollox. However long or short that relationship may be.

The reason this is in the law is to stop random people from shagging other random people when passed out (drunk) at parties etc. etc.

Suggesting otherwise is ...well....I won't finish that sentence as I've a pretty decent record here on Boards and I'd quite like to keep it that way.

But what is random people...does someone you know from college count as random?

How long should a relationship be to (engaging a sex act with a sleeping individual) be considered a safe endeavour...

Where is the concern for the recipient...what is the starting point for acceptance of a persons right not to be violated....

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The original post lost in the sensationalist sub Catholic church nonsense.
The act is designed to WAKE the person up in a pleasurable way. If they aren't pleasured - stop.
i.e. sort it out like the consenting adults you were a few hours ago.

ah, so you are obliged to sort it out because you had sex when you were awake earlier and, therefore, anything goes from thereon........... that is essentially your mindset.

Otherwise the girl is a juvenile, prudish, abnormal, man hating (unconsenting) social outcast. Because she may not be into that whole fetish and she may feel violated! She has just been sexually molested in her sleep which she may not be into but sure a few words and a cup of coffee is the right way to sort it out.............. otherwise she is not a "normal adult"

Right. I think we are going around in circles. I'm out!

Will I Am Not

Silentcorner wrote: »

Understanding consent is a massive problem....as evident in this very thread...

Care to suggest alternatives...

Alternatives to the tea video?

No means no.
Unconscious means no.

You don’t need ellipses after every sentence you post btw.

RuMan wrote: »

Yes i would. And i doubt any court would convict me if we had been having sex shortly before and i stopped once she requested it.

Except they would, considering someone has been handed a suspended prison sentences for doing it to his own girlfriend.

wexie

Silentcorner wrote: »

But what is random people...does someone you know from college count as random?

How long should a relationship be to (engaging a sex act with a sleeping individual) be considered a safe endeavour...

Where is the concern for the recipient...what is the starting point for acceptance of a persons right not to be violated....

All perfectly valid questions?

But were you not just arguing the law was black and white and there wasn't any room for interpretation?

Oh yes...judges....

The Talking Bread wrote: »

ah, so you are obliged to sort it out because you had sex when you were awake earlier and, therefore, anything goes from thereon........... that is essentially your mindset.

Otherwise the girl is a juvenile, prudish, abnormal, man hating (unconsenting) social outcast. Because she may not be into that whole fetish

Right. I think we are going around in circles. I'm out!

Probably 4 the best, its too complicated for you given you keep trying to pencil everything in simplec black and white terms

emeraldwinter

Faugheen wrote: »

You're chatting the most bollocks in this thread and that's saying something.

How do you know the courts aren't flooded with these cases? Just because they're not reported on?

Experience. Rape cases tend to be reported all the time. Reported to the Police or taken by the DPP entirely different.

So you have 2 options

1. there is no issue.
2. The cases are not taken by the Guarda or the DPP.

Mrsmum

Many guys and girls have very drunken sex any night you like and then crash out. If she then wakes up hours later in a pitch black room to find he is having sex with her orally or with his fingers, she may very well freak out and if she does no amount of saying I was only waking her up is going to help him from a legal standpoint.

FrancieBrady

Silentcorner wrote: »

Understanding consent is a massive problem....as evident in this very thread...

Care to suggest alternatives...

What alternatives are you suggesting. That neither partner can get horny? Jaysus, the real world is calling again.