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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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volchitsa

splinter65 wrote: »

The picture was originally uploaded to a public prorepeal Facebook page attached , I think, to Maynooth University.
The picture was then spread across the internet to wide condemnation.
Whatever way you look at it it displayed gratuitous disrespect to the beliefs and faith of many people going about their business who are guilty of absolutely nothing.
Why not just admit that it is in very poor taste? It clearly is!
It’s pointless you trying to pretend that devout RC people would not be offended by this or that they have no right to be offended.
The girls in the picture had ample opportunity to surface and defend themselves and justify their performance but they were never even identified.
Maynooth at the time said that they were looking into it.
There had been a previous similar incident of a repeal jumper being spread across an alter which was also condemned on all sides.
It hasn’t happened since which indicates to me that all have accepted that causing pain and fear to innocent people is not helpful and can’t really be justified.

Second time. These anonymous "prochoice" activists are strangely fearful of publicity, for people who court it so assiduously.

I'm dubious about who they really are, to put it mildly.As I said we have several examples of prolifers launching fake pro choice actions to try to discredit the pro choice side. IMO this is another one.

If they are pro choice who think these actions help their cause, why arent they claiming them?
And if they think they dont help their cause, why do they keep doing them?

captbarnacles

splinter65 wrote: »

So the referendum is nearly upon us and the people will have their say and will get exactly what they vote for and will have to stand over the result, one way or the other.
If the 8th isn’t repealed, what will be the plan for the repeal lobby?
I’m pro life but I’m not culturally Irish even though I’m an Irish citizen and I’m quite detached from all things Irish so I’ve no strong “OMG old Ireland is disappearing what will we do?!?” feelings about it.
If the 8th is repealed ( I’m not too sure it will be)
I will be very interested to see the path Ireland turns onto as I think it will be the most seismic thing to ever have happened here since the birth of the state.
I think that legislation will be introduced and very soon abortion will be widely available with no restrictions to around 20 weeks.
It will start at 12 weeks and arguments will ensue and it will creep up steadily.
Only time will tell what the long term consequences will be though.
The 1 in 5 statistic in the UK is pretty stark.
Where do people see abortion in Ireland in 10 years time? (Subject to repeal)

I see no negative long term consequences? in countries where it has been legal for a long time have you seen any?

splinter65

volchitsa wrote: »

Second time. These anonymous "prochoice" activists are strangely fearful of publicity, for people who court it so assiduously.

I'm dubious about who they really are, to put it mildly.As I said we have several examples of prolifers launching fake pro choice actions to try to discredit the pro choice side. IMO this is another one.

If they are pro choice who think these actions help their cause, why arent they claiming them?
And if they think they dont help their cause, why do they keep doing them?

This was last year. The photo was originally uploaded rather gleefully.
to a pro repeal Facebook page linked to Maynooth Uni. A lot of initial high fiving went on.
It went viral from there.
It’s since , of course, been deleted
The Uni said at the time they were looking into it.
Here’s another incident:
https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/news/most-people-would-think-its-going-too-far-outrage-after-prochoice-jumper-photographed-in-church-36008123.html
Are you suggesting David Quinn put the jumper on the alter and took the picture himself?

splinter65

captbarnacles wrote: »

I see no negative long term consequences? in countries where it has been legal for a long time have you seen any?

I think it’s a little bit sad that in the US more black babies are terminated then are born, and one in 5 is a bit steep in the UK but maybe it’s good in the long run.

splinter65

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'It went viral on twitter and facebook' - and the Liberal.ie was the best you could do in terms of an actual link? Wonder if they had permission to use the photograph or did they steal it along with most of their content.

If those who work in those 'privately owned' properties (paid for by public subscription) feel they have the right to speak about women's rights from those 'privately owned' properties (paid for by public subscription) properties than yes - women have the right to protest there.

You didn't support them. The pro-life movement didn't support them. Stop pretending the pro-choice movement condemned them because it didn't. You might wish there is division but you are wrong and your attempt (pretty poor attempt at that) to 'prove' there is has been shot down in flames.
But keep digging if you like. That is your absolute right.

I’m sorry that you’ve arrived at this hour in your life consumed by a hatred of an entity that won’t respond or retaliate in any official way to you because that must be very frustrating.
Churches are privately owned but open to the public and reliant on voluntary public donations.
Morally, if you didn’t donate then you don’t have a right to desecrate .
I think if any of these girls went into a mosque and did this there would have to be repercussions. Are you as angry with Islam and if not then why not?

Bannasidhe

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m sorry that you’ve arrived at this hour in your life consumed by a hatred of an entity that won’t respond or retaliate in any official way to you because that must be very frustrating.
Churches are privately owned but open to the public and reliant on voluntary public donations.
Morally, if you didn’t donate then you don’t have a right to desecrate .
I think if any of these girls went into a mosque and did this there would have to be repercussions. Are you as angry with Islam and if not then why not?

Pop psychology and whataboutery rather than an actual rebuttal.

Tell me - are these devout Catholics you mentioned in a previous post who were offended the same people as the 'decent' pro-choice people who were also offended by the now, apparently, deleted photograph?

BTW - photographs on FB are not 'free to use'. They belong to the person who posted them. So yes. The Liberal did steal it if they didn't have permission to use it - and if they didn't have steal it then that's a whole other story.

But continue with trying to stir up faux outrage - eventually someone might a) take you seriously or b) it might dawn on you that people just don't view the RCC as 'untouchable' anymore.

nice_guy80

splinter65 wrote: »

This was last year. The photo was originally uploaded rather gleefully.
to a pro repeal Facebook page linked to Maynooth Uni. A lot of initial high fiving went on.
It went viral from there.
It’s since , of course, been deleted
The Uni said at the time they were looking into it.
Here’s another incident:
https://amp.independent.ie/irish-news/news/most-people-would-think-its-going-too-far-outrage-after-prochoice-jumper-photographed-in-church-36008123.html
Are you suggesting David Quinn put the jumper on the alter and took the picture himself?

I wouldn't put anything past Quinn and his Iona Institute colleagues

Oldtree

RobFowl wrote: »

You seem to be quite confused. Simply GPs as a whole are pro repeal but at the same time feel they are not the appropriate ones to provide the service. This would be in keeping with the practice in the rest of Europe where it is a service provided in specialist clinics or hospitals.

Dr Conor McGrane, a GP in north Dublin who was involved in the survey, said no GPs trained in Ireland or the UK received direct tuition on providing medical abortions.

He said the doctors who said they would not become involved were likely to be influenced by having no training or lack of time due to their busy practices.

Having reread the article, I don't think I'm confused about this point, that a lack of training or lack of time were the reasons stated for not providing the service, not as you infer that doctors "feel they are not the appropriate ones to provide the service."

pitifulgod

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m sorry that you’ve arrived at this hour in your life consumed by a hatred of an entity that won’t respond or retaliate in any official way to you because that must be very frustrating.
Churches are privately owned but open to the public and reliant on voluntary public donations.
Morally, if you didn’t donate then you don’t have a right to desecrate .
I think if any of these girls went into a mosque and did this there would have to be repercussions. Are you as angry with Islam and if not then why not?

I know people who go to mass every week who will be voting repeal. They've even worn their jumpers to mass. Entitled to do so, no?

david75

It reeks of stunt. Youth defence and elements of the PLC have been doing stuff like this repeatedly. It first appeared on the liberal? Definitely a stunt. They keep getting caught red handed. As with the guy handing out strike for Repeal signs the other night at the march with an old Nazi logo on it, then the first video is uploaded to twitter already by with faux outrage from that gob****e john mcguirk.

Deplorable tactics. Handing young girls a placard with a fascist symbol on it. Just appalling.

pitifulgod

david75 wrote: »

It reeks of stunt. Youth defence and elements of the PLC have been doing stuff like this repeatedly. It first appeared on the liberal? Definitely a stunt. They keep getting caught red handed. As with the guy handing out strike for Repeal signs the other night at the march with an old Nazi logo on it, then the first video is uploaded to twitter already by with faux outrage from that gob****e john mcguirk.

Deplorable tactics. Handing young girls a placard with a fascist symbol on it. Just appalling.

Pretty sneaky with those signs too since the org hasn't existed in seventy years so nobody will recognise symbol.

david75

pitifulgod wrote: »

Pretty sneaky with those signs too since the org hasn't existed in seventy years so nobody will recognise symbol.

Guess who did recognise it? The very first person that tweeted about it. John McGuirk. Such flimsy transparent nonsense. And childish into the bargain.

david75

So before the PLC can claim a million people were at their march today, workers solidarity have two independent teams actually doing heads counts from 2pm

A large anti-choice march will pass through Dublin today and the organisers will attempt to massively exagerate the number taking part as part of their campaign to keep the hated anti-women 8th amendment. WSM will be there providing a count of the real numbers of people marching and we would strongly encourage our supporters to retweet and share the results as well as challenging any false exaggerated reporting of the numbers you may see. Along with the rest of the pro-choice movement we are not mounting a counter-protest this year, we will simply be there to observe and to count. From 14.00 track @wsmireland on twitter and keep an eye on our Facebook pages, in particular Solidarity Times which will carry a livestream from around 2.15.

Graphic shows how many people can be crammed in at rock concert density on Merrion square- its from 2013, we should be able to provide one later for the actual space occupied today

>>> Exact count will be available of today’s anti-choice march through Dublin <<<

Today ahead of the expected referendum in May a large anti-choice demonstration will pass through Dublin supporting a No vote in that referendum. Journalists have a particular responsibility in referendum campaigns towards factual accuracy and in particular in reporting the number of people who will have marched. We will be providing a precise count of the number of people who march today via @WSMIreland on Twitter and on this Facebook page

This count will be provided by two independent teams counting in two seperate locations on the route of the march, figures for both counts will be provided.

We are the Workers Solidarity Movement, originally formed in 1986 and active in many struggles in the years since. Part of our activity has been to provide accurate counts of the numbers who take part in demonstrations to the organisers of those demonstrations, these are rarely made public but from time to time we have provided public counts. We are a pro-choice organisation which understands that an essential part of winning any struggle is to have accurate information as to where people are at.

Today we intend to lifestream one of those counts to https://www.facebook.com/SolidarityTimes/ so in real time you will be able to hear the count in progress and judge its accuracy by viewing the section of the march being counted.
With the demonstration due to start at 14.00 the lifestream shall begin shortly before the front of the march reaches the location of that counting team. Both counts will be available via @WSMireland and https://www.facebook.com/SolidarityTimes/ within 5 minutes of the back of the march passing the last count team. The exact time will of course be dependent on the length of the march but is likely to be some time around 15.00.

Our methodology will be to count the passing march in blocs of 10 people. This is a method we have used for several years and provides a high degree of certainty, certainly with an error of less than 10%.

We shall however also be providing a figure to indicate the maximum number of people who could fit into the space the march occupies before it leaves Parnell square. Our observers will calculate this by noting where the back and front of the march is at departure and calculating how many people could fit into the space between back and front at a density similar to the of a concert. This figure will be a significant over estimate but it provides an upper limit to any claims of crowd size and we are providing it because we have previously seen media report figures that would require a physically impossible number of people to be crammed into the space occupied, sometimes as much as three times the maximum number. We will be using the Crowdsize App to provide that maximum estimate, if you have journalists on the ground they could do likewise.

For more details and previous controversy we recommend the article we published on last years Rally for Life number and their serious misreporting https://www.wsm.ie/c/rte--reports-10s-thousands-march-life you can also consult our video https://youtu.be/dFDGouci2FI

Note the method described in that article is cruder as it involves using one minute samples whereas today we will be counting the entire march

This 2013 article uses a different method to demonstrate that 60 thousand people cannot in fact fit in to the end point on Merrion Square https://www.wsm.ie/c/turnout-vigil-life-dublin-jan2013

And finally this is an exactly counteded image that shows how much space 3657 people take up on Merrion square in a Gunness Book of Records attempt http://metro.co.uk/2011/06/19/wheres-wally-thousands-dress-up-as-character-to-break-world-record-50126/

Bannasidhe

Wonder how much 'outrage' there will be about the gazillion pro-life people shutting down Dublin when families are trying to get to/from an important rugby match?

I'd be spitting fire personally.

Bannasidhe

Now this is an example of when photographs go viral and cause outrage on social media.

http://twitter.com/Donal_OKeeffe/status/972084533666504704

Looks like another dodgy stunt by the pro-life movement has backfired.

david75

He’s denied all knowledge of it despite being the first person to tweet about it at 12 that night and also the video he shared the camera stays on the signs and the girls they stung with the signs. So obviously a set up. The poor girls didn’t even know. Hope they go further about it. Seems they’ve spoken to gardai at least. He’s been on and on about it ever since.

McGuirk is simply disgusting

eviltwin

Targeting kids like this and leaving them exposed to abuse in this way is a really crass tactic. I don't expect anymore from them and I suspect they will only get more desperate as we approach the referendum date.

[Deleted User]

anyone blocking traffic on a saturday to demand attn for their political cause is an arßehole

thats any cause, any side, any reason, ever

Bannasidhe

david75 wrote: »

He’s denied all knowledge of it despite being the first person to tweet about it at 12 that night and also the video he shared the camera stays on the signs and the girls they stung with the signs. So obviously a set up. The poor girls didn’t even know. Hope they go further about it. Seems they’ve spoken to gardai at least. He’s been on and on about it ever since.

McGuirk is simply disgusting

Apparently Paddy Manning was the first to notice and drew McGuirk's attention to it... that's McGuirk's story anyway.

Paddy Manning .... :rolleyes:...

gandalf

It's just goes to prove what the anti choice brigade are all about faux sympathy for the unborn and then when the kid pops out they are fair game for everytype of exploitation and abuse.

david75

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Apparently Paddy Manning was the first to notice and drew McGuirk's attention to it... that's McGuirk's story anyway.

Paddy Manning .... :rolleyes:...

Jaysus. Misery loves company I guess. Speaking of.
Just reading that Matt cooper is saying the last word might be pulling back from coverage of the referendum.
Then remembered during the marriage equality referendum, a debate on the last word, Keith mills grasping at straws saying women shouldn’t be allowed drive cars or use petrol stations. No context needed, it made absolutely no sense then either.

This Crowd really really hate women.

splinter65

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Pop psychology and whataboutery rather than an actual rebuttal.

Tell me - are these devout Catholics you mentioned in a previous post who were offended the same people as the 'decent' pro-choice people who were also offended by the now, apparently, deleted photograph?

BTW - photographs on FB are not 'free to use'. They belong to the person who posted them. So yes. The Liberal did steal it if they didn't have permission to use it - and if they didn't have steal it then that's a whole other story.

But continue with trying to stir up faux outrage - eventually someone might a) take you seriously or b) it might dawn on you that people just don't view the RCC as 'untouchable' anymore.

I don’t know why you think photos on Facebook have intellectual property rights. They don’t.
I’m genuinely sympathetic with you. If I’m not mistaken I’ve heard you on national radio a number of times and I am so grateful and lucky that I don’t feel as subjugated intimidated and oppressed as you do (or at all I must say), because it’s a heavy load to carry especially when you know it’s never going to go away.
I don’t care at all if no one ever takes me seriously. The approval of others has never been important or even relevant to me. It’s another burden I’m not shackled with, wanting to be accepted or admired.
My mother says I’m too lazy for that.
I’m too young to know the church when it was untouchable, but I do know that it was, and for too long , and that that’s over now, and that it’s currently the national whipping boy that never retaliates, which, as I’ve said already, seems to cause even more frustration .

splinter65

pitifulgod wrote: »

I know people who go to mass every week who will be voting repeal. They've even worn their jumpers to mass. Entitled to do so, no?

Who cares what anyone wears to mass?
A woman goes to my mass pushing a baby born doll in a dolls pram. So what?
Mass is open to the public. You don’t have to sign in at the door or show your credentials or anything like that.
But why you would attend a club meeting when you don’t agree with the club or believe in the club or like the club or want to be a member of the club is a mystery to me!
Going to the club in an “I hate the club” t shirt and getting absolutely no response from the other club members must be pretty frustrating and dispiriting but, whatever floats your boat I guess...

Oldtree

"Rally delayed start due to more people joining from the back"

"Rally delayed due to lack of numbers turning up on time"

See my bit of spin there!

splinter65

Oldtree wrote: »

"Rally delayed start due to more people joining from the back"

"Rally delayed due to lack of numbers turning up on time"

See my bit of spin there!

I see you anxiously trying to gauge the level of support for each side. Hardly anyone is going to change their mind at this late stage. Respectfully let each side express their right to demonstrate without resorting to insults and name calling. The people will have their say in May.

gmisk

I was there at 130...at hugh lane and very few people about...

Oldtree

splinter65 wrote: »

I see you anxiously trying to gauge the level of support for each side. Hardly anyone is going to change their mind at this late stage. Respectfully let each side express their right to demonstrate without resorting to insults and name calling. The people will have their say in May.

I am not anxious at all, but I am very interested to get a true pucture of the levels of attendance at this highly publicised rally that organisers have been reported as saying they expect huge numbers to attend, giving imo an unbalanced view of Ireland today. I don't think that it's disrespectful to have a balanced reporting about the rally, do you?

What insults or name calling are you referring to?

Are you referring to the pro lifers calling women murderers?

pitifulgod

splinter65 wrote: »

Who cares what anyone wears to mass?
A woman goes to my mass pushing a baby born doll in a dolls pram. So what?
Mass is open to the public. You don’t have to sign in at the door or show your credentials or anything like that.
But why you would attend a club meeting when you don’t agree with the club or believe in the club or like the club or want to be a member of the club is a mystery to me!
Going to the club in an “I hate the club” t shirt and getting absolutely no response from the other club members must be pretty frustrating and dispiriting but, whatever floats your boat I guess...

A significant proportion of the mass going public voted in favour of same sex marriage too. Many Catholics simply disagree with specific stances. This is the reality. By your very logic wearing a repeal jumper is desecration.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

splinter65 wrote: »

Why do you think that your jumper pisses people off at all?
When the jumpers were distributed at the start I got the impression that a lot of people who bought them put them away quickly because of this type of immediate response

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/57m6xz/why_arent_you_wearing_a_repeal_jumper_you_fascist/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=comment_list

Do you still wear yours? I haven’t seen one in over a year.

Have you gone outside in that time? I doubt I've gone a week without seeing one since they came out. It's easier to get a feckin abortion than get one of those jumpers.

It's amazing how much they annoyed the pro-life crowd, they absolutely hate how much they caught on.

Bannasidhe

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t know why you think photos on Facebook have intellectual property rights. They don’t.
I’m genuinely sympathetic with you. If I’m not mistaken I’ve heard you on national radio a number of times and I am so grateful and lucky that I don’t feel as subjugated intimidated and oppressed as you do (or at all I must say), because it’s a heavy load to carry especially when you know it’s never going to go away.
I don’t care at all if no one ever takes me seriously. The approval of others has never been important or even relevant to me. It’s another burden I’m not shackled with, wanting to be accepted or admired.
My mother says I’m too lazy for that.
I’m too young to know the church when it was untouchable, but I do know that it was, and for too long , and that that’s over now, and that it’s currently the national whipping boy that never retaliates, which, as I’ve said already, seems to cause even more frustration .

Facebook says the poster owns the photographs. So that's that sorted.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/andy-rouse-photography/facebook-picture-rights/270204724175/

https://fossbytes.com/do-i-own-my-facebook-photos/

Annnnd once again you are mistaken as I haven't been on the radio since 1980 - I have been on the TV but that that was in connection with my specialist subject (not abortion or repeal) so I don't know who you are pop psychoanalysing but it ain't me.

Keep digging. You are doing a splendid job of destroying any shed of credibility you may have had.