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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C

I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion.

The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available.
This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence.

Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her.

This is the current law in Ireland.

Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.

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Nick Park

pilly wrote: »

Getting back to the original question "can a Christian vote for abortion?". Answer is very simple. Yes they can.

The question is actually about voting for unlimited abortion.

As has been stated a number of times, it all depends on how you define Christian. Someone who calls themselves a Christian can commit pretty any act that is physically possible, no matter how immoral.

However, the OP would appear to be asking whether a Christian (meaning someone who genuinely attempts to follow the example and teaching of Christ) can vote for unlimited abortion. In that case, the answer is not so simple.

In my own opinion, for what it's worth, I don't think I could vote for unlimited abortion without betraying fundamental principles that are core to my Christianity.

Edward M

Nick Park wrote: »

The question is actually about voting for unlimited abortion.

As has been stated a number of times, it all depends on how you define Christian. Someone who calls themselves a Christian can commit pretty any act that is physically possible, no matter how immoral.

However, the OP would appear to be asking whether a Christian (meaning someone who genuinely attempts to follow the example and teaching of Christ) can vote for unlimited abortion. In that case, the answer is not so simple.

In my own opinion, for what it's worth, I don't think I could vote for unlimited abortion without betraying fundamental principles that are core to my Christianity.

I'd say to you then don't vote for something you feel you can't vote for.
I would hold a slightly different view on it in this case.
I feel the eighth is stopping women who medically need it for health reasons from getting that help. Women who are impregnated by force, such as rape or abuse also should be able to get an abortion.
I know the final wording hasn't been revealed yet, but its likely to state that we should allow govt to legislate for abortion up to 12 weeks, a draft bill of which will be made available prior to the referendum.
I don't support abortion on demand and never will, but for people that need it to get help it looks like the scenario of abortion for all up to that point is the solution necessary.
I honestly don't feel that allowance impinges on my beliefs or stance.

Delirium

Nick Park wrote: »

The question is actually about voting for unlimited abortion.

As has been stated a number of times, it all depends on how you define Christian. Someone who calls themselves a Christian can commit pretty any act that is physically possible, no matter how immoral.

However, the OP would appear to be asking whether a Christian (meaning someone who genuinely attempts to follow the example and teaching of Christ) can vote for unlimited abortion. In that case, the answer is not so simple.

In my own opinion, for what it's worth, I don't think I could vote for unlimited abortion without betraying fundamental principles that are core to my Christianity.

Just wondering, would this also apply to abortion on request up to 12 weeks?

uck51js9zml2yt

Delirium wrote: »

Just wondering, would this also apply to abortion on request up to 12 weeks?

I think this has been debated already. It's the definition of what is a foetus.
For the record, it's not an orange.
It is a human, granted in a developmental stage but nevertheless it's human.

People can do all the mental gymnastics they like, it doesn't change it.

I was listening to the radio forum his morning with an interesting discussion on the supreme court case today.
There are already laws recognising the rights of the unborn apart from the 8th.
It can inherit, can take a legal case etc. Anyways, a 7 judge panel will make it interesting. It's generally 3 or 5.

Nick Park

Edward M wrote: »

I know the final wording hasn't been revealed yet, but its likely to state that we should allow govt to legislate for abortion up to 12 weeks, a draft bill of which will be made available prior to the referendum.

Actually, it isn't likely to state any such thing at all. All the reports and indications are that there will be nothing whatsoever in the Referendum wording about 12 weeks.

The referendum will ask us to delete the clause in our Constitution that affords the right to life to unborn children, and to replace it with a clause saying "Provision may be made by law for the regulation of termination of pregnancies."
No gestation limit there.

The government says it initially only intends to introduce legislation pertaining to 12 weeks - but that is a politician's promise, not a Constitutional guarantee. And, of course, the door is then open for this, or any other government, to introduce any further abortion legislation whatsoever with no Constitutional hindrances.

pilly

Nick Park wrote:

In my own opinion, for what it's worth, I don't think I could vote for unlimited abortion without betraying fundamental principles that are core to my Christianity.

And that's fine. In my opinion as a Christian I can vote for it.

Nick Park

Delirium wrote: »

Just wondering, would this also apply to abortion on request up to 12 weeks?

Yes, for me it would apply then as well. I see no compelling reason, scientific or philosophical, for denying an unborn child before 12 weeks the status and respect that we should afford to all human beings. Therefore, as a Christian, I could no more vote for such a proposal than I could vote to support an act of war, the imposition of capital punishment, the euthanasia of the elderly, or the legalisation of slavery.

Nick Park

pilly wrote: »

And that's fine. In my opinion as a Christian I can vote for it.

And you are, of course, fully entitled to do what you want. As the Tayto TV ads used to say, "There's always one."

But it isn't as simple as you suggested a few posts ago.

pilly

Nick Park wrote:

And you are, of course, fully entitled to do what you want. As the Tayto TV ads used to say, "There's always one."

I think you'll find there's more than one Nick.

It really is simple. The question is can not will. And yes anyone CAN.

Delirium

Nick Park wrote: »

Yes, for me it would apply then as well. I see no compelling reason, scientific or philosophical, for denying an unborn child before 12 weeks the status and respect that we should afford to all human beings. Therefore, as a Christian, I could no more vote for such a proposal than I could vote to support an act of war, the imposition of capital punishment, the euthanasia of the elderly, or the legalisation of slavery.

Thanks for the clarification

david75

Well the timing is very strange but this is happening

Seven judges to hear appeal over rights of unborn
Judgment may affect the wording of the referendum on the Eighth Amendment

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/supreme-court/seven-judges-to-hear-appeal-over-rights-of-unborn-1.3399385

uck51js9zml2yt

david75 wrote: »

Well the timing is very strange but this is happening

Seven judges to hear appeal over rights of unborn
Judgment may affect the wording of the referendum on the Eighth Amendment

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/supreme-court/seven-judges-to-hear-appeal-over-rights-of-unborn-1.3399385

I mentioned it earlier.

OF course, its just a coincidence that the wording was released the day before the court case and in the press the morning of it.:D

david75

It is a bit strange isn’t it?

Getting the ducks in order I guess

end of the road

Edward M wrote: »

I'd say to you then don't vote for something you feel you can't vote for.
I would hold a slightly different view on it in this case.
I feel the eighth is stopping women who medically need it for health reasons from getting that help. Women who are impregnated by force, such as rape or abuse also should be able to get an abortion.
I know the final wording hasn't been revealed yet, but its likely to state that we should allow govt to legislate for abortion up to 12 weeks, a draft bill of which will be made available prior to the referendum.
I don't support abortion on demand and never will, but for people that need it to get help it looks like the scenario of abortion for all up to that point is the solution necessary.
I honestly don't feel that allowance impinges on my beliefs or stance.

i would have to disagree. the current law that allows for abortion in the case where the mother's life is under threat could likely be extended to take in other serious medical issues. i really don't think we need to vote repeal to implement abortion for those other health issues and abortion on demand certainly wouldn't be necessary to allow for abortion in necessary circumstances.

NuMarvel

end of the road wrote: »

i really don't think we need to vote repeal to implement abortion for those other health issues...

I don't know why you continue to think this when the problems with this approach have been highlighted numerous times. Have you managed to explain how these problems can be dealt properly with or are you taking a leaf out of the Brexiteers handbook and assuming/hoping they'll sort themselves out?

J C

pilly wrote: »

Getting back to the original question "can a Christian vote for abortion?". Answer is very simple. Yes they can.

... and your reason for this unsupported claim?

Nobody can vote against their conscience ... and that applies to Christians and non-Christians, who are pro-life.

You are correct though, that it is very simple ... we are being asked to repeal the 8th and to allow politicians to legislate as they see fit ... which currently is abortion on demand up to 12 weeks and possibly with no limit for particular reasons.

... so anybody voting 'yes' is directly voting for unlimited 12 week abortion immediately ... and giving politicians a 'blank cheque' on abortion afterwards.

No Christian can, in conscience, countenance such a thing.
They will bear the exact same moral responsibility, for what happens as the abortionists whom they will have given the legal 'green light' to.

"Do unto the unborn as you would have done unto you."

That is pretty clear IMO ... as is 'Thou Shall Not Kill' ... it would impossible for any Christain to maintain that they behaved consistently with their Christian Faith if they vote to allow the killing on demand of untold numbers of the most innocent of Human Beings.

Its simply unimaginable that one Human could be so uncaring as to kill another Human ... its beyond comprehension that a mother could do this to her own child.
... yet it is happening, day and daily.

... and it will happen on a much greater scale if the 8th is repealed ... and the 'legal floodgates' are opened to abortion on demand.

david75

J C wrote: »

... and your reason for this unsupported claim?

Nobody can vote against their conscience ... and that applies to Christians and non-Christians, who are pro-life.

You are correct though, that it is very simple ... we are being asked to repeal the 8th and to allow politicians to legislate as they see fit ... which currently is abortion on demand up to 12 weeks and possibly with no limit for particular reasons.

... so anybody voting 'yes' is directly voting for unlimited 12 week abortion immediately ... and giving politicians a 'blank cheque' on abortion afterwards.

No Christian can, in conscience, countenance such a thing.
They will bear the exact same moral responsibility, for what happens as the abortionists whom they will have given the legal 'green light' to.

"Do unto the unborn as you would have done unto you."

The vast majority of the Christians in Ireland are Christian in name only. The church is all but abndoned. It will be completely extinct within a generation.

Apart from an insignificantly small number, Nobody is letting their faith, that they don’t actually have, guide their conscience on what way they vote. In this or any referendum

Delirium

With regard to this 'blank cheque' argument, do people honestly believe that if the limit up that women will opt for 20 week abortions in preference to the abortion pill?

J C

david75 wrote: »

The vast majority of the Christians in Ireland are Christian in name only. The church is all but abndoned. It will be completely extinct within a generation.

Apart from an insignificantly small number, Nobody is letting their faith, that they don’t actually have, guide their conscience on what way they vote. In this or any referendum

Wishful thinking IMO.

david75

Some of the absolute nonsense and fear mongering you see here and elsewhere would have you believe women want to be able to put an axe in its head the moment it’s born if it suits them. Just nonsense.

Late term abortions only happen when women can’t have access to medical care and have to save to get away to England. That can often lead to feotus becoming baby.

So in effect our current law is actually shockingly inhumane and cruel on the mother and inutero occupant.

Yet here’s people looking to maintain that law. Insane.

david75

J C wrote: »

Wishful thinking IMO.

Of the 20 maybe 30 people who attended mass near you last Sunday, how many were aged between 18-45?
One or none?

J C

Delirium wrote: »

With regard to this 'blank cheque' argument, do people honestly believe that if the limit up that women will opt for 20 week abortions in preference to the abortion pill?

... whether it is 20 weeks or 12 weeks it's just as horriffic.

Here is a 12 week old unborn child :-

... and here is a 20 week old unborn child:-
pregnancy-week-20-fetal-movement_square.jpg,qwidth=384.pagespeed.ce.8mkE_5jDt_.jpg

There is no substantive diffference between the obvious Humanity of either.

david75

Cartoons aren’t an argument JC. If you want to be taken seriously anyways.

It’ll be flat earth cartoons next.

J C

david75 wrote: »

Of the 20 maybe 30 people who attended mass near you last Sunday, how many were aged between 18-45?
One or none?

Whether people are religious or not ... we have an instinctual revulsion to the idea of killing other Human Beings ... or to others killing Human Beings.

Delirium

J C wrote: »

... whether it is 20 weeks or 12 weeks it's just as horriffic.

Here is a 12 week old unborn child :-

... and here is a 20 week old unborn child:-

There is no substantive diffference between the obvious Humanity of either.

Not an answer to my question.

You're suggesting that the limit with be revised upwards.

Working with that premise, what makes you think that women will wait later into the pregnancy because of the new limit? Why wouldn't they just continue to use abortion pills/ have abortions before 12 weeks?

Do you have an actual reason that you communicate or are you attempting to scaremonger those who may be okay with abortions <12 weeks?

J C

david75 wrote: »

Cartoons aren’t an argument JC. If you want to be taken seriously anyways.

There is no substantive difference between the obvious Humanity of either a 12 week or a 20 week old unborn child - Fact.

uptherebels

J C wrote: »

There is no substantive difference between the obvious Humanity of either a 12 week or a 20 week old unborn child - Fact.

again why do you post cartoons or cgi when actual pictures are available?

Bob_Marley

david75 wrote: »

The church is all but abndoned. It will be completely extinct within a generation.

2000 years ago the Romans used to gleefully pronounce the same thing.
Stalin and similar regimes gleefully made the same pronouncement.
In Ireland during the penal laws, the same thing was gleefully pronounced.

The Church is still here, the pronouncers and their regimes are the extinct ones.

Jesus tell us "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." - Matthew 16:18

david75

J C wrote: »

Whether people are religious or not ... we have an instinctual revulsion to the idea of killing other Human Beings ... or to others killing Human Beings.

Ehhh couple of world wars and hundreds of different conflicts globally costing millions of lives in the last 100 years alone call lie to that.

Did you know that from all the way back to preChristian and Early Christian Ireland abortion was as common as to be unremarked upon? Right up until the foundation of the state infact.
Do you know how and why that changed?

J C

Delirium wrote: »

Not an answer to my question.

You're suggesting that the limit with be revised upwards.

Working with that premise, what makes you think that women will wait later into the pregnancy because of the new limit? Why wouldn't they just continue to use abortion pills/ have abortions before 12 weeks?

Do you have an actual reason that you communicate or are you attempting to scaremonger those who may be okay with abortions <12 weeks?

The announced 12 week limit is only for abortion on demand.
Undoubtedly, the limit will be set much higher than this, from the start for defined cases .

The other point I'm making is that abortion pills are both dangerous and illegal ... and killing a 12 week old unborn child on demand is just as wrong as killing a 20 week old unborn child.