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Ireland 2040 plan "will kill rural Ireland"

marno21

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ireland-2040-strategy-will-kill-rural-ireland-according-to-coalition-825724.html

Deja vu anyone?

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Pixel Eater

the_pen_turner wrote: »

Where is the urban rural divide.
Are all our towns included in the urban section. If not they should.

I don't believe those stats. Us rural people pay less tax yes but receive a lot less Money back too.
Look at all the billions spent on stuff like the luas in cities. Rural Ireland can't even get a pothole fixed .

If the population wasn't so dispersed there would be a lot less potholes to fix.

Malayalam

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In the past you could of lived and died with no interaction with the state or state infrastructure . This is simply not possible anymore

Yeah because what tourists want to see is a beautiful landscape and Malayalam's house. Beautiful unspoiled is what tourist want

Why would the land wither?

There is no vitriol . So you've never used the Garda, Fire , Health , Schools ?

Where does your power and internet come from?

Oh, and by the way the internet comes from a tower, no lines, and I managed without electricity for 15 years so ye can have that back too if ye resent it. I don't mind.

Wanderer78

Pixel Eater wrote: »

If the population wasn't so dispersed there would be a lot less potholes to fix.

some people really cant live in densely populated areas, we need to rethink money, its creation and its distribution

John_Rambo

Malayalam wrote: »

Go anywhere in rural Ireland and you will find the old stones of cottages that littered the landscape, one off dwellings outside of villages. In my area there would be multiples of these old places compared to the amount of houses here now, the place used to thrive. With one off housing!! It's not like we have not been doing that for millenia - we have. Sure, there were also villages and big towns, but people have also always liked to live in isolated landscapes. I sure do. Cities and towns give me feelings of distress, I could not bear to return. If me and my neighbours did not live here, no one would ever cast an eye on these beautiful hills and lakes and fields - no tour buses would fit up the roads for people to gawk at the empty landscape - and the land would truly wither, unseen. Now at least there are still voices carried on the wind, children playing, people calling for lost animals. The vitriol here is kind of surprising against country dwellers. I don't want your lights, libraries, amenities, trains. Never asked for them, though my tax is the same. I look after my own water and sewage and travel a couple of miles to meet the rubbish collection system. I don't care. It is more than made up for with the peace. I do loads of business in the local villages, buy fuel there, coal, sticks, use the post office regularly, buy milk and bread and whatever. As for the talk of the petrol we bumpkins use, for goodness sake, it's microscopic compared to the fuel being burned morning, noon and night on the main arteries (congested and awful) heading inexorably towards Dublin, squeezing in the hassled hoards who have to waste hours every day in their cars.
I may however be among the last generation to be able to live in the country side, by the looks of things. By the sound of people on here. It's as if we are outcasts, renegades, the blight on yer immaculate plan.
Feck yiz, I'm holing up here!!

Those houses were occupied during a time when people had a connection with the land. They lived off the land and the main transport was bicycle or beast..

The current one off housing dwellers have zero connection with the land and has more to do with vanity, they're bad for the environment and the country. The vehicles they so much depend on are destroying the roads and making them dangerous to cycle on.

The vitriol in your posts against what you call the “hassled hoards” as you gaze down your nose at them is disappointing and surprising consider they subsidise your lifestyle.

jobbridge4life

Wanderer78 wrote: »

some people really cant live in densely populated areas, we need to rethink money, its creation and its distribution

To what end? I will never understand the determination of some in rural Ireland to turn the entire countryside into an elongated housing estate. The road out of Galway, towards the west, is one of the most monstrous examples.

LeinsterDub

Malayalam wrote: »

Leinster Dub, you can squeeze almost everyone in there into Leinster and Dublin, for all I care, all of yiz on top of each other like hamsters, until the whole island topples over sideways...but I'm staying here!

Stay where you like but also accept the reality that your way of living is costing the state fortune and isn't sustainable, these are facts.

Nermal

Wanderer78 wrote: »

some people really cant live in densely populated areas, we need to rethink money, its creation and its distribution

Any chance you could stop promoting Keynesian tripe on every thread on the forums?

Wanderer78

jobbridge4life wrote: »

To what end? I will never understand the determination of some in rural Ireland to turn the entire countryside into an elongated housing estate. The road out of Galway, towards the west, is one of the most monstrous examples.

ive seen people become mentally unwell by living in densely populated areas after moving from less densely populated areas. many being forced back into less densely populated areas for these reasons. some humans simply cannot deal with it

the_pen_turner

jobbridge4life wrote: »

the_pen_turner wrote: »

Where is the urban rural divide.
Are all our towns included in the urban section. If not they should.

I don't believe those stats. Us rural people pay less tax yes but receive a lot less Money back too.
Look at all the billions spent on stuff like the luas in cities. Rural Ireland can't even get a pothole fixed .

I really detest the rural vs urban schtick. It does nothing to help either side. However, it must be said that the above is just not accurate, Dublin supports rural Ireland. So you get more back than you pay out.

Yes money is spent on building the transport infrastructure of cities, that is good and proper, because countless more people use it every single day. It should also be noted that Dublin is ridiculously underserved in transport infrastructure.

The maths might agree with you but the opinion on the ground doesn't. Most people in rural Ireland believe that the cities and towns get all the money and we get forgotten about

LeinsterDub

Malayalam wrote: »

Oh, and by the way the internet comes from a tower, no lines, and I managed without electricity for 15 years so ye can have that back too if ye resent it. I don't mind.

And the infrastructure that allowed for the tower to be built ?

You may be our very own bear grills/come doctor/come home school teacher/fireman/road builder/etc but you are a unique special case the vast majority on people on this island consume services and infrastructure provided by the state

LeinsterDub

the_pen_turner wrote: »

The same if not more is being spent on urban motorways so that kind of balance s out

What urban Motorways, the M50 and?

Ben D Bus

Mr.H wrote: »

I don't agree with that TBH. I think planning rules should be looked at but if I have land in the middle of longford and there is nothing for miles. I should be allowed to build a 17 storey house if I really want and pay for myself. But planning restrictions don't allow that.

OK, but you shouldn't complain if there is no broadband, electricity or water supplied to your isolated skyscraper. Or if you have to drive to your nearest town to collect your post. Or wait an hour for an ambulance then travel another hour to hospital.

LeinsterDub

the_pen_turner wrote: »

The maths might agree with you but the opinion on the ground doesn't. Most people in rural Ireland believe that the cities and towns get all the money and we get forgotten about

I believe the Donald calls this an alternate fact :rolleyes:

Malayalam

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Stay where you like but also accept the reality that your way of living is costing the state fortune and isn't sustainable, these are facts.

All we have out here are badly maintained roads, are you suggesting letting the ground swallow up all the roads bar those linking economic hubs, with a few specimen routes left over for tourists to look at the Great Empty? I use my land, every inch of it, and I can assure you I am not costing the state a fortune

Wanderer78

Nermal wrote: »

Any chance you could stop promoting Keynesian tripe on every thread on the forums?

its not Keynesian, modern macro economic theory is more closely related to english economist john hicks's work, but is called Keynesian economics, this is according to Australian economist steve keen, hes probably right. i will agree with you though, what we perceive as Keynesian economics is indeed tripe, and i certainly do not promote it for these reasons.

Tell me how

I love Dublin. I've never lived there but would like to for a period, simply to have more frequent access to shows and entertainment without having to factor in travel and overnight costs which make it expensive. I love the vibe of the place, the accents, pretty much most of it.

But it is an Ok City in the greater scheme of things, you could walk across the core part of the city from Ballsbridge to say Castleknock in little over 2 hours. It is not on a par to global cities such as London, Paris, New York, Barcelona, Berlin, Rome and so on. China has over 160 cities with a population over 1 million while Dublin city itself (not the greater Dublin area) is only 550K or something I think.

As someone living outside of Dublin, I do have a strong sense that when it comes to planning and infrastructure, it is "Dublin and everywhere else" with everywhere else largely picking up crumbs from what is left over after what has been allocated for Dublin.

I find this evident in conversation about infrastructure, services and most recently the homeless situation. This last one in particular frustrates me because there are still plenty areas of the country that have empty blocks of apartments and housing estates but yet the conversation is about how we need more units in and around Dublin. And why is this? Because that is where people want to live and where the jobs are, we are told. This is where the behaviour of the government is lacking in my view. There are hundreds of businesses in the greater Dublin area which do not necessarily need to be there. The business function could operate just as well anywhere else. And a large amount of people working in these places are travelling from outside the region to work there. What adds to this is that a large number of the people who end up working in these businesses in dublin travel from elsewhere in ireland because there are very few opportunities local to their region.

For example, a large insurance business is located in Cherrywood off J13 on the M50. There are about 500 people working there.
Could that business not operate just as well in Nass, or Newbridge, or Navan. I bet that the commute for a large number of people working there would not necessarily be any longer if it was located in one of these areas. And maybe, (definitely) they would hire more from the surrounding area ultimately reducing the crush for houses associated with these 500 people. Similarily, that business could located in Nenagh, Mallow, Castlebar, Letterkenny or so on but there is a fascination with Dublin, because the company says that is where the people are, and yet those people are travelling in to the area anyway and those that do not have ties are adding to the crisis in that space. And how many more businesses are there like this? I don't know why the IDA and the government don't incentivise businesses to locate outside of Dublin which would lessen issues there and create employment and fill houses in the new location.

I know you are not going to move these businesses overnight but maybe some would due to reduced costs and better access for their staff, if someone actually puts the offer to them. And new companies coming to the country. They should be forcibly pushed to locate outside of Dublin if at all possible. Again, yes, it wouldn't happen overnight but look how fast the 10 years went since the last crash, we should have a strategy that will work for the betterment of everyone in the long run. Not just short term. It seems idiotic to have to say it but it seems that someone needs to think this way in my view.

The location of the new children's hospital will mean stress and difficulties for the sick and their families and I shudder to think how I would feel if I lost a child because of the delay in getting to the hospital. But yet, the government choose not to locate it outside the M50. I'm not suggesting it should have been Dingle but the difference in moving it 15 miles further out would be so much more beneficial to a great proportion of the rest of the country. I can travel from Ennis to the M50 in 2Hrs. If I have to travel in to St James, that is generally another hour on to the journey for the final 10 miles or so in peak traffic.

For people who say rural Ireland is being destroyed with one off housing. I agree some of it doesn't help, but I very much agree that if people cannot live locally then they will definitely not tend to the farms which make up the countryside and make the country the aesthetically pleasing place it is. Housing in rural Ireland doesn't seem to bother the hundreds of cars travelling from dublin to holiday homes in places like lahinch and dingle and connemara every long weekend during the summer. Houses which are usually empty then until the next time people want a break from the rat run of life in the big city.
And maybe do cut down on one off housing but facilitate group schemes of 6-10 houses in designated areas or try to encourage building in villages and town so people don't feel the need to build in a one off location.

Someone opened a thread about rail transport to Shannon airport seeing as it is being discussed for Dublin airport and was bluntly told that 30M passengers travel through Dublin whereas 1.7M travel from Shannon. Guess what, a lot of those 30 million travel to and from the west to dublin because there aren't services in Shannon. There aren't services in Shannon because there aren't the numbers and so the problem feeds in to itself. It use to gaul me in my last company, based in Shannon, when we had to use Dublin airport for access to flights for staff or customers due to no flights from Shannon. That costs lost manhours for every international acting business in the entire west and south of the country in my view.

Galway, Limerick and Cork and several of the larger towns in the mid and south west (and elsewhere) have a lot of expertise which should be leveraged more to attract businesses to the region. That coupled with the available industrial and office space and very low price accommodation in commutable distance should be a no-brainer in my mind to a planning strategy for the entire country.

When I hear experts on radio and tv shows move from one item to the next and talk about the need for more houses and then the next expert talking about a better work life balance and then the next talk about travelling infrastructure I get frustrated because we have a lot of solutions to these problems already existing, actually sitting and waiting, in the entire country but yet we hear Dublin, Dublin, Dublin like it is some utopia which only needs some minor tweaking.

TLDR
People travel in to or try to live in Dublin because that is where work is.
Move the work out of Dublin will mean those workers will not have to travel in to or live in the area.
This will alleviate housing crisis within the city and revitalise the area where the business and workers are located outside of the city.
Rinse and repeat.

Nermal

For a supposedly silent bunch there is rather a lot of rural moaning in the media today, demanding subsidised high-speed internet to every hamlet in the country.

Tell me how wrote: »

As someone living outside of Dublin, I do have a strong sense that when it comes to planning and infrastructure, it is "Dublin and everywhere else" with everywhere else largely picking up crumbs from what is left over after what has been allocated for Dublin.

Your sense is completely wrong, thanks though. Also thanks for mini-travel blog about 'global cities', that was nice.

the_pen_turner

LeinsterDub wrote: »

the_pen_turner wrote: »

The same if not more is being spent on urban motorways so that kind of balance s out

What urban Motorways, the M50 and?

Motorways is not the right word. More like dual carriageway s.
Every city has received series money to spend on huge bypass s and ring roads

Tell me how

Nermal wrote:

Your sense is completely wrong, thanks though. Also thanks for mini-travel blog about 'global cities', that was nice.

Ooh, a different opinion. That's nice.

Thanks for not countering any of the points though. That would have been nicer.

Although, your reference to dwellings in the country as "hamlets" leads me to think I already know what your views are.

LeinsterDub

Malayalam wrote: »

All we have out here are badly maintained roads, are you suggesting letting the ground swallow up all the roads bar those linking economic hubs, with a few specimen routes left over for tourists to look at the Great Empty? I use my land, every inch of it, and I can assure you I am not costing the state a fortune

Of course roads linking towns and villages should be maintained and improved in some cases. In other cases we've kilometers of roads providing access to a handful of houses unfortunately we are where we are now with these.

I meant a fortune compared to urban provision of services* (once again taking about the majority here not a Bear Grills type like you)

Malayalam

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Of course roads linking towns and villages should be maintained and improved in some cases. In other cases we've kilometers of roads providing access to a handful of houses unfortunately we are where we are now with these.

I meant a fortune compared to urban provision of services* (once again taking about the majority here not a Bear Grills type like you)

If you're going to tag me twice with a label, spell it correctly... It's Grylls, Mrs Bear Grylls to you.

El Tarangu

the_pen_turner wrote: »

Motorways is not the right word. More like dual carriageway s.
Every city has received series money to spend on huge bypass s and ring roads

The money pay for those ring roads was generated in the same city, likely as not. The money to create those rural motorways came from urban taxpayers as well.

El Tarangu

Tell me how wrote: »

TLDR
People travel in to or try to live in Dublin because that is where work is.
Move the work out of Dublin will mean those workers will not have to travel in to or live in the area.
This will alleviate housing crisis within the city and revitalise the area where the business and workers are located outside of the city.
Rinse and repeat.

The last large-scale effort at moving jobs from Dublin to smaller towns (the decentralisation project of the late 90s/early 00s) did not work very well. People didn't want to move to the countryside; sure, your house would be bigger, but cities provide so many more options for work and leisure.

Tell me how

El Tarangu wrote:

The last large-scale effort at moving jobs from Dublin to smaller towns (the decentralisation project of the late 90s/early 00s) did not work very well. People didn't want to move to the countryside; sure, your house would be bigger, but cities provide so many more options for work and leisure.

Agreed. understood.

A - They were public sector workers, it was a different scenario. It's more common for private businesses to move.

B - You can still try to focus on the new businesses being located outside of Dublin.

jobbridge4life

Tell me how wrote: »

TLDR
People travel in to or try to live in Dublin because that is where work is.
Move the work out of Dublin will mean those workers will not have to travel in to or live in the area.
This will alleviate housing crisis within the city and revitalise the area where the business and workers are located outside of the city.
Rinse and repeat.

Your TLDR is not an accurate reflection of your post. Aside from your disclaimer about loving Dublin the majority of it was a bog standard, Dubs get it all and sure it is no New York.

You are flatly wrong about the infrastructure part, it is Dublin not the countryside which is compartively underserved by its infrastructure. We have an M50 that is at breaking point, a very limited public transport system, parts of the city can't even get adequate broadband. This is inspite of being the economic powerhouse of the country.

There are schemes to help encourage the development of businesses outside of the Dublin area. The problem is that most people, and most businesses, want to live in a major urban area (as they do all across the world). You have a critical mass of businesses, facilities and population, it makes sense for businesses to be in or close to that centre. You hardly imagine that businesses are choosing to locate in Dublin and its environs because they have some grudge against the countryside.

Dublin badly needs a counterweight, I think everyone can agree on that. The issue is to achieve that counterweight we need other major urban areas. Not 20+ county towns spread around the country with their town centres denuded of anything resembling a functioning core because everyone wants a front and back garden they can neglect and yet expects all the same services as those that chose to live in town centres and city centres. You literally cannot have it both ways, the last 70 years of development in this county have made that abundantly clear.

Idbatterim

Dublin badly needs a counterweight, I think everyone can agree on that. The issue is to achieve that counterweight we need other major urban areas. Not 20+ county towns spread around the country with their town centres denuded of anything resembling a functioning core because everyone wants a front and back garden they can neglect and yet expects all the same services as those that chose to live in town centres and city centres. You literally cannot have it both ways, the last 70 years of development in this county have made that abundantly clear.

Dublin is growing a hell of a lot quicker than any other "city" we have... The gap is only to get bigger, its the only city of any scale we have, that can compete with other international cities.

Also I have to laugh, rural Ireland wants to stymy Dublin, the only player in town when it comes to investment for a lot of companies. Where does a hell of a lot of wealth generate in Dublin go back too? exactly rural Ireland.

Dublin i.e. Ireland gets it or we dont get it at all in a lot of cases!

Tell me how

jobbridge4life wrote:

You are flatly wrong about the infrastructure part, it is Dublin not the countryside which is compartively underserved by its infrastructure. We have an M50 that is at breaking point, a very limited public transport system, parts of the city can't even get adequate broadband. This is inspite of being the economic powerhouse of the country.

I disagree with you. But that's normal. People often seem to have very binary views on things these days.

Dublin being the economic powerhouse of the company is solely because of the businesses located there.

My suggestions are a counterpoint to that while availing of housing, office and industrial infrastructure which is already in place is no indication that everyone wants a front and back garden (I don't know here you got that from).

Your suggestion that we need a counterweight to Dublin.
Where do you suggest that be?
Should everyone then move to within (painful) commute of either of these areas?
What then with the rest of the country?

lawred2

Tell me how wrote: »

Dublin being the economic powerhouse of the company is solely because of the businesses located there.

And why are 'the businesses' located there?

Just because?

cgcsb

_Brian wrote: »

Of course those of us born and working here deserve local services too.

Why is that?

Tell me how

lawred2 wrote:

Just because?

Read my earlier post. (If you can stick it it's a long one

)