VW emissions software update - disaster

benny79 wrote: »

Any local mechanic doesnt charge you for telling you what's wrong with the car or plugging in a diagnostics which takes 5 mins..

This is where a lot of the confusion lies at times.

To be fair, it takes 5 minutes for the mechanic to pick up the keys off the hook, walk to the car, get in and start it and drive it to his workspace before he even lifts the bonnet. Nothing is done on a car in "5 minutes".

The actual task of plugging in a computer does only take 30 seconds to one minute I'll give you that.

After you plug it in, there can be lots of codes to sift through and test procedures to follow which can easily tale 20-30 minutes and even at that, the findings of the diagnostic tool are just leads. A good diagnostic session will include much more than just reading a regurgitating codes, it will include physical inspection and testing also.

Any "diagnostic" done in "5 minutes" isn't done right. Sure you can plug in a scan tool, get a fault code for a sensor and replace it and cure the fault and that can and does happen but plenty of times the sensor is just the symptom, not the cure and that's where a more comprehensive diagnostic inspection helps get it right the first time.

Unfortunately much like everything motoring related, people just won't pay for it.

dubrov

120 for a 20 minute diagnostic is excessive in my opinion => 360 euro per hour

I agree the mechanics time has a cost but should be recovered as part of any repair cost.

What are those figures based on?

dubrov

ford4610 wrote: »

Vw are now charging me 120 even though I didn't give my approval for them to carry out a diagnostic. But they didn't carry out a diagnostic as they stated in the quote they found a fault with fuel system but they can't say what the fault is. The service manger said it might be possibly a fuel system problem there is no guarantee. So their stories are not matching... If I want to take the car away they are not letting car out of the garage until I pay the 120 for supposedly checking the problem..

See above

George Dalton

dubrov wrote: »

120 for a 20 minute diagnostic is excessive in my opinion => 360 euro per hour

I agree the mechanics time has a cost but should be recovered as part of any repair cost.

What if there is no repair? Remember that the poster in this case wants to take his car out of the garage without any repair being carried out by them. Surely they shouldn't be expected to work for free?

What we usually do in the case of a problem that can be diagnosed by a simple 20 minute test/scan/inspection is we charge for that diagnostic time but deduct the cost from the cost of the repair itself. That way we get paid for the diagnostic time even if the customer decides to take the car elsewhere for the actual fix but if the customer gets us to carry out the repair then they effectively get the diagnostic for free. I think that is fair for both parties.

Riva10

George Dalton wrote: »

What if there is no repair? Remember that the poster in this case wants to take his car out of the garage without any repair being carried out by them. Surely they shouldn't be expected to work for free?

What we usually do in the case of a problem that can be diagnosed by a simple 20 minute test/scan/inspection is we charge for that diagnostic time but deduct the cost from the cost of the repair itself. That way we get paid for the diagnostic time even if the customer decides to take the car elsewhere for the actual fix but if the customer gets us to carry out the repair then they effectively get the diagnostic for free. I think that is fair for both parties.

In the case where the diagnosed fault is attributed to previous work done by the garage, would the fix and the diagnosis be free of charge?

fionaanna

I'd really appreciate some advice. My car, a 1.6 diesel golf went in for the emissions fix just under 8 weeks ago. Since then it just hasn't been the same. It sounded different especially in 1 and 2nd gear, the fan was staying on after I had turned the engine (it's never done that before) there was a slight burning smell. The amber coil light came on and said engine fault. I brought it to my mechanic he said it was something to do with gases not getting into the engine, presume this is the EGR value. It then broke down on Sunday, had a complete loss of power and had to get a tow truck out, he said he thought it was the dpf filter but didn't have his diagnostics machine to be sure. I have now had it towed to the garage that carried out the emissions fix and they are telling me it's the alternator and that i need a new battery. They are trying to charge me €1200. I mentioned that I have seen online that similar things have happened over people's cars and that it's related to the emissions fix. What are your opinions? Does it sound like it's related to the emissions fix? Apologies for the long post!

[Deleted User]

fionaanna wrote: »

I'd really appreciate some advice. My car, a 1.6 diesel golf went in for the emissions fix just under 8 weeks ago. Since then it just hasn't been the same. It sounded different especially in 1 and 2nd gear, the fan was staying on after I had turned the engine (it's never done that before) there was a slight burning smell. The amber coil light came on and said engine fault. I brought it to my mechanic he said it was something to do with gases not getting into the engine, presume this is the EGR value. It then broke down on Sunday, had a complete loss of power and had to get a tow truck out, he said he thought it was the dpf filter but didn't have his diagnostics machine to be sure. I have now had it towed to the garage that carried out the emissions fix and they are telling me it's the alternator and that i need a new battery. They are trying to charge me €1200. I mentioned that I have seen online that similar things have happened over people's cars and that it's related to the emissions fix. What are your opinions? Does it sound like it's related to the emissions fix? Apologies for the long post!

Is quite common for egr's to fail on them shortly after the update. More so the 1.6. They can stick open and the engine chokes on its exhaust and dies.

The fan staying on is most likey the car is doing a regen of the dpf and needs to cool down. Very high temp during regen can give a burning smell.

Although unusual for the alternator to go in them. If your brake down was an issue to do with the update the dealer would/should sort it straight away as it would be covered under warranty anyway.

If it's the alternator it's not related so it's an unfortunate coincidence. If it needs an EGR or DPF it's likely they'll cover it.

Your symptom of a change in engine noise and the fan running on may be symptomatic of a DPF, but it could just be carrying out a regeneration which is perfectly normal and is likely to be more frequent after the update.

That said, I doubt they are trying to sell you an alternator you don't need. They aren't going to charge €1200 to hand you back a broken car. I'd confirm the diagnosis with the garage and post back here what they say.

fionaanna

This is the reply i received from them

Further to today’s conversation in relation to the Golf recovered in, we have diagnosed that the alternator has failed and recommend replacing it along with the alternator belt and tensioner and also a battery (as this has failed a battery test). We will need these replaced so we can test drive the car to explore any further issues in relation to the lack of power/poor engine performance you have mentioned to me.
I want it to be made clear to you that the failure of the alternator is in no way related to the emissions campaign performed here last November 2017
However, I cannot rule out the possibility there are further faults in the engine without first driving it.

I've been speaking to the mechanic that towed my car on Sunday and mentioned all this to him and he doesn't agree with them and that the alternator was working when he had it.

tcawley29

fionaanna wrote: »

This is the reply i received from them

Further to today’s conversation in relation to the Golf recovered in, we have diagnosed that the alternator has failed and recommend replacing it along with the alternator belt and tensioner and also a battery (as this has failed a battery test). We will need these replaced so we can test drive the car to explore any further issues in relation to the lack of power/poor engine performance you have mentioned to me.
I want it to be made clear to you that the failure of the alternator is in no way related to the emissions campaign performed here last November 2017
However, I cannot rule out the possibility there are further faults in the engine without first driving it.

I've been speaking to the mechanic that towed my car on Sunday and mentioned all this to him and he doesn't agree with them and that the alternator was working when he had it.

If you could get access to the car get in, turn on the lights and maybe even full beams, get out, look. Is it bright?

Yes) Alternator and battery is fine and the garage have some explaining to do.
Don't even tell them you are going to check. Just show up. The element of surprise might go in your favor here. If the battery is removed when you show up then it is possible they may be telling the truth
No) The garage was right

The response from the garage seems reasonably legit to be honest. They aren't ruling out the fact that there could be something else wrong when the car is back running, which they will then consider, but they can't even check for that with a failed alternator.

It's be very unfortunate timing but not beyond the realms of possibility that the alternator has had a sudden failure, stranger things have happened

€1200 for alternator and battery is extortionate. Get that fixed by your local mechanic and then once it's running get it back to the garage for the emissions issues because that's completely separate to an alternator issue.

With cold weather and more use of lights the battery and alternator would be under more pressure and so they could easily develop a fault.

KCross wrote: »

€1200 for alternator and battery is extortionate.

To be fair, it's not extortion, it's about the going rate for a main dealer repair. They aren't robbing them at that price, that's just what they charge for that job.

There are cheaper places to get it repaired of course, as you say an independent garage with lower overheads using a refurbished part will be able to charge less.

That said, the OP's hands are slightly tied if the car isn't driving as the cost of towing the car to an independent will quickly soak up a lot of the savings made by taking it there.

colm_mcm

€1200 isn’t extortion, but it’s shockingly expensive for something that obviously isn’t that well engineered in the first place.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

To be fair, it's not extortion, it's about the going rate for a main dealer repair. They aren't robbing them at that price, that's just what they charge for that job.

There are cheaper places to get it repaired of course, as you say an independent garage with lower overheads using a refurbished part will be able to charge less.

That said, the OP's hands are slightly tied if the car isn't driving as the cost of towing the car to an independent will quickly soak up a lot of the savings made by taking it there.

alternator and battery would be about €400 in parts inc vat for OEM(Hella or Bosch) parts.
That leaves €800 in labour? Is that reasonable even for a main dealer?

I'd still call it extortion. A tow to the local indie and you are still quids in. At €1200 I'd get it towed myself with help from friends.

Unless the Golf is an absolute pig to work on and the alternator is a days work?

It just seems like a lot to me. I've had alternators done before and labour was nowhere near that.

Anyway, I agree with you that the alternator has to be fixed (and paid for) first, one way or the other, before you can start looking at emissions issues.

colm_mcm wrote: »

€1200 isn’t extortion, but it’s shockingly expensive for something that obviously isn’t that well engineered in the first place.

By my definition "shockingly expensive" = extortionate

nhg

Got alternator replaced in our Toyota RAV4 d4d last week in the main Toyota dealer €475.00, they mentioned that it was an big job as the drive had to come off so your quote seems high...

KCross wrote: »

alternator and battery would be about €400 in parts inc vat for OEM(Hella or Bosch) parts.
That leaves €800 in labour? Is that reasonable even for a main dealer?

But a main dealer won't use oem parts, they will use the more expensive comes in a vw box part. Could be €400 for the alternator, €200 for the start stop battery, €100 for tensioner, €20 for belt....plus fitting at whatever hourly rate they charge. Maybe €90 an hour plus vat?

Miike

Neilw wrote: »

But a main dealer won't use oem parts, they will use the more expensive comes in a vw box part. Could be €400 for the alternator, €200 for the start stop battery, €100 for tensioner, €20 for belt....plus fitting at whatever hourly rate they charge. Maybe €90 an hour plus vat?

So you mean they'll be using OEM parts.

Miike wrote: »

So you mean they'll be using OEM parts.

They will be using OE parts, original equipment, genuine vw, in the vw box

Compared to OEM, part made by the same manufacturer who supplies vw such as hella but in their own branded box.

I know the difference

grogi

Neilw wrote: »

They will be using OE parts, original equipment, genuine vw, in the vw box
Compared to OEM, part made by the same manufacturer who supplies vw such as hella but in their own branded box.

I know the difference

As long as the production of the OE is in place, the OE and OEM are usually identical, even the branding is the same (apart from the packaging) . It's cheaper that way for the manufacturer. But once the OE production ceases, the quality of OEM parts can go down.

grogi wrote: »

As long as the production of the OE is in place, the OE and OEM are usually identical, even the branding is the same (apart from the packaging) . It's cheaper that way for the manufacturer. But once the OE production ceases, the quality of OEM parts can go down.

The point I was making originally is they a main Volkswagen dealer won't use hella, Bosch, lemforder or similar packaged parts. They will use OE Volkswagen boxed parts, which may be exactly the same part but will cost more through the dealer parts department.

Neilw wrote: »

But a main dealer won't use oem parts, they will use the more expensive comes in a vw box part. Could be €400 for the alternator, €200 for the start stop battery, €100 for tensioner, €20 for belt....plus fitting at whatever hourly rate they charge. Maybe €90 an hour plus vat?

I don't think I'm too far out with my prices and thats backed up by post #590.... €475 for everything at a main dealer.

Obviously this dealer has done the calculations and will be able to provide an invoice showing €1200.... that doesn't take away from the fact that its an extortionate price for a fairly routine job.

KCross wrote: »

I don't think I'm too far out with my prices and thats backed up by post #590.... €475 for everything at a main dealer.

Obviously this dealer has done the calculations and will be able to provide an invoice showing €1200.... that doesn't take away from the fact that its an extortionate price for a fairly routine job.

Parts prices between Toyota and VW could be vastly different, the only similarity would be the labour rate.

Neilw wrote: »

Parts prices between Toyota and VW could be vastly different, the only similarity would be the labour rate.

Sure, but do you think €1200 is reasonable and typical for replacing an alternator and battery in any main dealer? I don't think it is... hence the suggestion of getting it fixed elsewhere.

grogi

Neilw wrote: »

Parts prices between Toyota and VW could be vastly different, the only similarity would be the labour rate.

If similar part with one logo is disproportionally more expensive than with another logo, that's extortion... If only they had some special technology or were known to last much longer than Toyota.

https://www.netflix.com/ie/title/80118100

KCross wrote: »

Sure, but do you think €1200 is reasonable and typical for replacing an alternator and battery in any main dealer? I don't think it is... hence the suggestion of getting it fixed elsewhere.

It is what it is, posters here are complaining that it's too expensive but Volkswagen are tied into using their OE parts which are more expensive than OEM or spurious parts.
Of course the price would be less if spurious parts could be used but Volkswagen won't buy outside their parts department, that's the point I'm making.

darragh o meara

Worth a look if you want an insider view to the whole scandal.
https://www.netflix.com/ie/title/80118100

darragh o meara