J C wrote: » You have a very good point there. Its just not good enough to simply ban unlimited abortion and then let the mothers who go through with their pregenancies 'sink or swim'. ... but is this actually the case in Ireland ... we have a number of social and financial supports available to single parents ... perhaps more supports should be made available to all parents, incuding a tax allowance per child dependent for taxpayers, given that roughly 50% of abortions in England are to married Irish women.
eviltwin wrote: » There is not one person I know who is "pro abortion" whatever that means. I'd be quite active in the Repeal movement and I've never met anyone who actually wants women to have abortions. Everyone I meet is simply in favour of giving people choice to decide what's best for them. A lot of those members would not personally choose to have an abortion nor would they pressure a loved one to have one. I'd hope that if my daughter found herself with an unplanned pregnancy that she would continue with it but being pro choice means I respect her choices and I love and support her regardless and will never judge.
Harika wrote: » There was an US slogan for Planned Parenthood, something like "Easy to access, hardly used" stating that if you want an abortion you can have it without any hassle, but there will be systems in place that will give you all support you need to get through the pregnancy and raise a child, so that you don't want one. TBH both are missing in Ireland, families with two incomes are struggling and I cannot imagine under which pressure a single female unemployed parent is, where the partner said goodbye and the family offers no support. To expand the safety net here would dis-encourage some women wanting an abortion, what helps to sell the point of an abortion. I haven't read the last pages, but it seems the same issue in Ireland than in the US, people care about the unborn fetus but as soon as it is born, the newborn and parents are mostly on their own. All the sympathy then gets replaced by despise for the freeloaders.
J C wrote: » The current proposal is for the 8th Amendment to be repealed and for legisation to be introduced immedately upon a 'yes' vote to allow unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks.
EirWatchr wrote: » end of the road has it by the same right as you have to declare who/what is not a person by your opinion. Unrestricted abortion in the first trimester is legal in Europe because (as the committee has heard) there is no legal definition yet of when a life begins (and on which abortion could later be contested). You seem to know better than the law.
Ash.J.Williams wrote: » Life begins at conception and anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot.. And I'm pro choice.
eviltwin wrote: » Obviously you've never been pregnant. Even in the easiest of pregnancies it becomes the essence of your entire physical and mental state. It's a huge emotional and psychological investment.
J C wrote: » Let us 'call a spade a spade'. The 'pro-abortion' movement calls itself 'pro-choice' because of the deeply negative connotations associated with the word 'abortion'. The 'pro-choice' adjective also relegates the issue to one of 'consumer choice' ... which nobody would normally have any problem with ... except the 'consumer choice', in this instance, is the choice to kill an unborn child ... which many people have a problem with. There is a very significant lobby in favour of introducing unlimited abortion into Ireland ... they call themselves 'pro-choice' ... but in reality, when it comes down to it, they are actually 'pro-abortion'.
Je_suis_Jean wrote: » So you prefer a situation where on demand abortion is illegal but there are no consequences for breaking the law by taking an unborn who has the protection of the Irish constitution and having it aborted in England. That makes perfect sense!!
Hannibal_Smith wrote: » Pro abortion lobby...does it have to be an us vs them scenario? Can we all not remember the humanity at the centre of it all and just vote they way you want, without slinging mud at the other?
Je_suis_Jean wrote: » If only there was the appetite for it I'd be 100% in favour of having a referendum which gave voters two choices:- 1. Repeal the 8th as is being suggested. 2. Introduce a new amendment which made prosecuting any Irish citizen having an abortion regardless of whether that's within the Rep of Ireland or not. That would truly test the appetite within the country for banning abortion. At the moment a large cohort can smugly pat themselves on the back for being protectors of the unborn yet all they have achieved is the export of abortion so in true NIMBY fashion they can raise their hands and declare "there's no on demand abortion here"!!
Je_suis_Jean wrote: » You make it sound like it could survive at 12 weeks which you know it can't, right?
NuMarvel wrote: » What happens to a person's body is very much about bodily autonomy, so I'm perfectly fine with ignoring the father's wishes in these cases. The opposite would apply also; if she wanted to continue the pregnancy, and he wanted her to have an abortion, she would have the final say. Its nothing like that, because bodily autonomy is a more fundamental issue than financial responsibilities. But if you want to change the rules around financial maintenance, there's nothing stopping you from campaigning for it.
NuMarvel wrote: » Other people say if men could become pregnant, there would be abortion clinics on every corner. Let's stick to what actually happens.
gallifreya wrote: » There is no dishonesty or pretence in that these supposed equal rights are currently harming women. I asked a question about compassion out of genuine curiosity. The 'love both' concept is just peddling the status quo imo. However, awarding all the concern and compassion for the unborn does indeed indicate a lack of concern and compassion for the pregnant women, 'loving both' notwithstanding. Maybe a balance in compassion could be achieved to repeal this draconian amendment that actually would achieve a balance of rights.
gallifreya wrote: » Why is the compassion only going one way -where is the compassion for women? There seems to be a blindness to any suffering or injury that could befall women due to pregnancy as long as the foetus is protected. So laws protect the unborn at the expense of women, Christians give their compassion to the unborn at the expense of women and the purported equality and balance are already skewed. Should a 12 week limit pass, the unborn will still be protected - just at a later stage of development.
Peregrinus wrote: » It remains to be seen, of course, what the referendum question will be. If it's a bit like the divorce referendum, with the absolute prohibition being replaced by a provision which accommodates abortion only in defined and constitutionally-entrenched circumstances, then obviously a vote for unlimited abortion isn't being offered, and the question raised in the OP won't arise. If the proposal is simply to delete the prohibition, and leave it up to the Oireachtas to legislate to permit abortion in whatever circumstances it thinks fit from time to time, I don't think that would be a vote for unlimited abortion; it would be a vote to give the Oireachtas power to determine the limits within which abortion would be permitted. Almost certainly, there'd be an explicit proposal as to how the Oireachtas would legislate, at least initially, and I very much doubt that it would be a complete decriminalisation of abortion in all circumstances. The most you could say, I think, would be that someone might vote to give the Oireachtas power to permit unlimited abortion. Can a Christian countenance this state of affairs? Well, yes; it's the usual state of affairs in most countries, and there's no worldwide Christian movement to change this. And it's the current state of affairs in Ireland with respect to many other important moral questions; the Oireachtas can already legislate for which killings of people already born will be regarded as murder, for example, and which will not. In short, I don't think the question raised in the OP has much application in the real world. Depending on the question put to the people in the referendum, the most people will be able to vote for is to permit abortion on terms to be written into the Constitution, or to permit abortion on the terms in which the government has said it intends to legislate, or to permit abortion on the terms in which the voter thinks, or fears, the Oireachtas is likely to legislate. Realistically, I don't think that in any of those cases are we looking at "unlimited abortion".
Je_suis_Jean wrote: » Wow!! I'm not going to pretend to speak on behalf of women who have been pregnant but having lived through it with my wife on several occasions I'm of the view that nothing whatsoever about being pregnant is either quiet or automatic!! I witnessed a woman in all kinds of discomfort who had to refrain from certain activity and basically devote herself to being as good a foetus carrier as possible. Saying the process is quiet and automatic makes it sound like its a walk in the park comparable to letting your hair grow. Have you or your partner ever been pregnant?
NinetyTwoTeam wrote: Do any of you Christian pro-lifers here actually think there is any chance the 8th won't be repealed? Because from what I am reading here I am kind of concerned that you are going to take it very hard, and you might want to just prepare yourselves as it is practically a dead cert it will be repealed.
Nick Park wrote: » That would be rather hard to legislate for? That only sinless people could kill unborn babies? Or are you saying that only sinless people should express their opinion on human rights?
NinetyTwoTeam wrote: » Do any of you Christian pro-lifers here actually think there is any chance the 8th won't be repealed? Because from what I am reading here I am kind of concerned that you are going to take it very hard, and you might want to just prepare yourselves as it is practically a dead cert it will be repealed.
koumi wrote: » I say ye without sin should cast the first stone
J C wrote: » I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion. The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'. It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available. This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence. Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her. This is the current law in Ireland. Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.
end of the road wrote: » we have been through this before. everything you state in relation to me is incorrect and that cannot be disputed. what i have stated in relation to the killing of the unborn and how outside extreme circumstances there is no justification for it, in my opinion.
end of the road wrote: » this is factually incorrect. you claimed to have disputed the point i made and i have told you that you have failed to dispute it because that is the case. christians and all other religions are united with those of us who are non-religious in knowing that the killing of the unborn unrestricted and on demand is one of the most barbaric acts known to man.
WhiteRoses wrote: » You literally just completely contradicted yourself and proved my point.
end of the road wrote: » it can't be disputed. you have tried to dispute it but have failed each time. of course we would be having the referendum because some in this country think it's okay, unrestricted and on demand, to kill the most vunerable, the unborn. it's not and it never will be whether the 8th is repealed or not. it goes against humanity and all that is right, and everything humanity stands for. this fact unites both religious and non-religious who see unrestricted and on demand abortion for what it actually is
WhiteRoses wrote: » It can be disputed, I’m disputing it right now. You’re opinion is not a fact, and it is extremely arrogant to presume so. If what you were saying were a fact we would not be having this referendum.
