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Child Item

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C

I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion.

The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available.
This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence.

Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her.

This is the current law in Ireland.

Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.

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NaFirinne

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

People who blindly believe things never need evidence Delirium. It's a fundamental enabler for why suicide bombers do what they do.

If you say you have faith in someone - you already know they exist.

Faith for a christian is trusting in Christ completely and following his teachings.

Too quote Jeffrey Small -

"The path to salvation is more like an awakening, an understanding, and an experience of what is already here but we cannot see.

The spiritual path (prayer, meditation, fasting, worship, etc.) becomes a mechanism to peal back the onion layers of who we are and what we think the world around us is, so that we can examine the power of God within ourselves, within others, and within existence itself.

Salvation is an opening of our eyes and hearts, a new way of seeing the universe"

54and56

antiskeptic wrote: »

Been just fine? Evidence from beyond the grave?

Has there ever been any evidence from beyond the grave of anything other than you're dead?

Bill Burr eloquently puts it as follows:-

<snip>

Edit: Apologies to anyone who was offended by the swear word in the original version of this which has now been removed.

54and56

Delirium wrote: »

Any evidence to support this claim?

People who blindly believe things never need evidence Delirium. It's a fundamental enabler for why suicide bombers do what they do.

NaFirinne

Abortion is murder from a christian perspective - Abortion is the biggest single killer in the world today.

How rotten has today's society got that we think it's a good thing to slaughter so many unborn babies.

People have been fooled into believing abortion is about women's health and benefits society.

Any peace we have in the world today has been brought about by christian way of live which is based on love for all and peace - History has shown when the world falls into evil as many of the civilizations have before us they don't last too long afterwards.

Revelation talks about the world falling into evil like it was before the flood - slaughtering the most innocent - what is more evil then that.

Nick Park

As for the question in the OP, it all depends on how you define 'Christian'. People who call themselves Christians have managed to commit all kinds of atrocities in the last 2000 years, so voting for abortion won't be a problem for such 'Christians'.

However, if we're talking about Christians in the sense of those who genuinely take the teachings of Jesus seriously as a guide for their lives, then I don't see how supporting the taking of human life can be justified in any but the most extreme cases (eg to save the mother's life).

I could not vote for unlimited abortion for the same reason that I couldn't vote for the death penalty, or support military warfare. I believe killing people is wrong.

This is not a case of wanting the law of the land to enforce my religious views on others, as I support the right of people to legally commit a multitude of acts or behaviour that are contrary to my morality. But I do believe that one of the proper functions of the State is to protect people's life and liberty. So I will vote against unlimited abortion for the same reason that I would vote against legalised slavery or people trafficking, would vote against the abuse or exploitation of children, and would vote against any infringement of people's rights to exercise freedom of religion or to restrict their freedom to reject religion.

Delirium

cnocbui wrote: »

There is no god, and judging by what you have chosen to focus on, if there were, it would make Trump look grown up and mature by comparison.

MOD NOTE

1. Please don't derail the thread.

2. also please familiarise yourself with the charter, particularly the following:

Arguments such as "There is no God, therefore..." or "The Bible is full of contradictions, therefore..." will not be tolerated. Don't start off with a conclusion which your audience is bound to disagree with!

Thanks for your attention.

antiskeptic

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

I am speaking the Truth. Please listen.

No offence, but you post like prototype artificial intelligence. A Roman Catholic bot' could post the bulk of what you post, the AI element merely adding a hint of responding contextually to posts.

What's there to listen to? There is no argumentation involved in what you say - so you can't appeal on the basis of that.

I can only presume you believe that blindly declaring what you believe to be the case will attract supernatural sauce from on high, adding efficacy to what must otherwise be consider bald, dogmatic claims.

The world is full of bald, dogmatic claims (e.g. there is no God but Allah), so nothing for anybody, but the most impressionable, to listen to.

NuMarvel

Peregrinus wrote: »

- While late abortion of a Down Syndrome child is lawful it is extremely rare. The condition is typically detected by amniocentesis between 15 and 20 weeks into pregnancy and, if a termination is to follow, it follows well within 24 weeks.

To add to this, in 2016, only 21 abortions for Down's Syndrome were on or after the 24th week. That's less than 3% of abortions for DS, and 0.01% of all abortions in England & Wales.

In any case, it's all moot, because the Committee recommendations don't include disability as a ground for abortion in Ireland, and I don't see it likely that the Oireachtas would go beyond the recommendations when legislating after a referendum. Women who have abortions for this reason will continue to travel overseas, as at least 45 of them did in 2016.

Cabaal

antiskeptic wrote: »

Been just fine? Evidence from beyond the grave?

There's no evidence to suggest they haven't been just fine. Unless you have something?

Peregrinus

Delirium wrote: »

Any evidence to support this claim?

JC is correct, I think.

The Abortion Act 1967 s. 1 provides a defence to a doctor who terminates a pregnancy -

(a) if continuing the pregnancy presents a greater health risk to the woman (or to one of her other children) than terminating it, and the pregnancy has not exceeded 24 (originally 28) weeks; or

(b) if termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the woman; or

(c) if continuing the pregnancy presents a greater risk to the life of the woman than terminating it; or

(d) if there is a substantial risk that if the child were borne it would be seriously handicapped.

Only circumstance (a) is subject to an explicit time limit. 95% of abortions are performed under circumstance (a). About 2% are carried out in circumstance (e), and about one-fifth of those - 0.4% of the total - relate to Down Syndrome.

When the Act was passed, the Infant Life Preservation Act 1929 was already in force, and operated to set a limit to abortions in circumstances (b), (c) and (d); it meant that an abortion could not be performed in those circumstances once the child was "capable of being born alive" (which of course was a matter of medical judgment, and which depended on the state of medical technology/practice with respect to neonatal care).

However further law changes in 1990 removed this restriction, and since then abortion under conditions (b), (c) and (d) has been lawful at at any point.

However there's a couple of qualifications that should be mentioned.

- Of the 5% of abortions that are carried out under conditions (b), (c) and (d). the substantial majority are carried out within the 24-week time limit in any case. 0.1% of all abortions take place after 24 weeks.

- This is largely because people who do not wish to be pregnant do not wait to get abortions; they get them early. It's also because few doctors are willing to perform very late abortions, and those who are will usually only do so in very extreme circumstances.

- In short, very late abortions are tragedies for all concerned; they nearly always in involve a wanted pregnancy which has developed in a disastrous fashion.

- While late abortion of a Down Syndrome child is lawful it is extremely rare. The condition is typically detected by amniocentesis between 15 and 20 weeks into pregnancy and, if a termination is to follow, it follows well within 24 weeks.

antiskeptic

Cabaal wrote: »

I'll take my chances, just like the humans for the 50k years before me have taken their chances and have been just fine.

Been just fine? Evidence from beyond the grave?

Delirium

J C wrote: »

I'm very real .. and the immediate deaths of beautiful innocent 12 week unborn children exactly like this will be the result of a vote to remove the 8th.

This isn't a child with any disease (not that this should be a reason to kill her anyway).
The welfare of the mother is a 'red herring' ... modern medicine can take care of the health of all pregnant women ... and if there is a risk to her life ... abortion is already available in Ireland to prevent that.

... and there is a programme running now on RTE 1 TV on Downs Syndrome testing in the UK ... where 90% of unborn children diagnosed with Downs Syndrome are aborted ... in Iceland the figure is 100%.
Legally in the UK, a Downs Syndrome child can be killed right up to birth.

Horrendous and outrageous !!!

Any evidence to support this claim?

NuMarvel

end of the road wrote: »

it is a human being, just not a person yet.

Well, this is awkward.

J C wrote: »

A foetus is truthfully and legally a person in Ireland at present ...

Cabaal

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

I'm afraid there is a God, the wrath of whom the world will feel very shortly. Please repent, while you still have time.

Very shortly?
I'll take my chances, just like the humans for the 50k years before me have taken their chances and have been just fine.

Bubbaclaus

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

In the Old Testament, God punished various tribes. The reason for this is that they had abandoned Him utterly and they could not ever enter the Kingdom of God. So He wiped them out. He will do this again for this godless world, unless people repent. If you repent, you will not feel His wrath.

He sounds a bit like Kim Jong Un. How big is his button?

54and56

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

In the Old Testament, God punished various tribes. The reason for this is that they had abandoned Him utterly and they could not ever enter the Kingdom of God. So He wiped them out. He will do this again for this godless world, unless people repent. If you repent, you will not feel His wrath.

Your repetitive dogmatic nonsense duress nothing to progress your pro life argument, all it does is highlight how intransigent and stuck in the past you are.

People like you will actually help win the referendum argument for repealing the 8th just as similar dogma shone a light on why the divorce and marriage equality referendums should be approved.

Please do carry on, you're doing a great job.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

YFlyer wrote:

Lol ok. Gods word during Kali Yuga.

Strife and discord.

YFlyer

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

Yes it is.

Lol ok. Gods word during Kali Yuga.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

cnocbui wrote:

There is no god, and judging by what you have chosen to focus on, if there were, it would make Trump look grown up and mature by comparison.

I'm afraid there is a God, the wrath of whom the world will feel very shortly. Please repent, while you still have time.

cnocbui

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

In the Old Testament, God punished various tribes. The reason for this is that they had abandoned Him utterly and they could not ever enter the Kingdom of God. So He wiped them out. He will do this again for this godless world, unless people repent. If you repent, you will not feel His wrath.

There is no god, and judging by what you have chosen to focus on, if there were, it would make Trump look grown up and mature by comparison.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

YFlyer wrote:

So its not the book or word of God.

Yes it is.

YFlyer

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

In the Old Testament, God punished various tribes. The reason for this is that they had abandoned Him utterly and they could not ever enter the Kingdom of God. So He wiped them out. He will do this again for this godless world, unless people repent. If you repent, you will not feel His wrath.

So its not the book or word of God.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

In the Old Testament, God punished various tribes. The reason for this is that they had abandoned Him utterly and they could not ever enter the Kingdom of God. So He wiped them out. He will do this again for this godless world, unless people repent. If you repent, you will not feel His wrath.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

YFlyer wrote:

They do claim they're Christians. You do read?

It does not matter whether they claim to be Christians or not, they are not Christians.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

YFlyer wrote:

NT contradicts OT.

No. The New Testament completes the Old testament.

YFlyer

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

Everybody word of the Bible is God's word. Every word therefore, is true.

NT contradicts OT.

YFlyer

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

If they vote for the death penalty, they are not Christian.

They do claim they're Christians. You do read?

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Gerry T wrote:

No their not. They were written by men. The bibles were written by men, hundreds of yrs after jesus was here. Ever notice how miracles were plentifully back in the day, but since the age of photography they seem to have stopped!

Everybody word of the Bible is God's word. Every word therefore, is true.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Abortion is the wilful killing of another human being. Thus abortion is murder.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

SuperSean11 wrote:

Where does it say animals donâ€™t have souls?

Animals don't have souls such as humans. But they enter Heaven because Christ loves them.