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Can the provinces ever hope to emulate the Leinster academy?

irishfan9

MOD - discussion moved from the Leinster Ulster buildup thread

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Great talent alright.

I wonder if we'll start hearing those GAA arguments for Leinster to be split up. The South Dubs split off to form the Cappucheensters while the North Dubs and the rest of the province move to Donnycarney.

Nah more likely that there should be a central academy that all provinces can get resources... trying to kill provincial loyalty etc.

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irishfan9

for pro talent michaels 2013 > blackrock 2013

Bridge93

Apart from Rock 2014 and potentially 2016, Michaels have dominated pro talent since the 2011 Clongowes team

irishfan9

both have quite a few future acadeny players in each side this year assuming no disastrous injuries etc.

front - rock
2nd row - michaels
backrow - draw
scrumhalf - michaels
outhalf - draw
centre - rock
back three - draw

jacothelad

stephen_n wrote: »

Did we not establish the results are the best since Anscombe?

No. Let's look at the end of the season, not over 12 games mostly against dross in which we have lost to Zebre, beat Treviso by 1 point, drew with the Dragons, got butthoked by Connacht and conceded almost 100 points and 15 tries in 3 Interpros. Let's not distort things to suit an argument one way or another.

jacothelad

Interested Observer wrote: »

Ulster?

Belfast Giants. Fully Pro Ice Hockey team that attracts large crowds.

Ulster also has the misfortune, for historical reasons, to exist in a situation where 50%+ of school age children will never see a rugby ball. There is active rejection of the game in some quarters as un-Irish......possibly by people who support overseas soccer teams.

prawnsambo

jacothelad wrote: »

Belfast Giants. Fully Pro Ice Hockey team that attracts large crowds.

Ulster also has the misfortune, for historical reasons, to exist in a situation where 50%+ of school age children will never see a rugby ball. There is active rejection of the game in some quarters as un-Irish......possibly by people who support overseas soccer teams.

It's so hard to keep up with all these Ulster 'traditions'.

bilston

I don't really see any reason why Inst, MCB and Campbell don't produce the same numbers of high standard players as Blackrock, St Michaels etc. I'm pretty sure they train as much and have some excellent coaches.

Inst has been the dominant team in Ulster for a while winning the last 3 Schools Cups and as yet no one from those 3 teams has gone on to represent Ulster at senior level, in fact there are only two Inst players in the Ulster Academy. That's quite strange IMO, and last year in particular they were miles ahead of everyone else in Ulster. It also exposes the myth that there is an inherent bias towards the big 3 in Belfast when it comes to the Ulster Academy.

The Lost Sheep

bilston wrote: »

I don't really see any reason why Inst, MCB and Campbell don't produce the same numbers of high standard players as Blackrock, St Michaels etc. I'm pretty sure they train as much and have some excellent coaches.

Inst has been the dominant team in Ulster for a while winning the last 3 Schools Cups and as yet no one from those 3 teams has gone on to represent Ulster at senior level, in fact there are only two Inst players in the Ulster Academy. That's quite strange IMO, and last year in particular they were miles ahead of everyone else in Ulster. It also exposes the myth that there is an inherent bias towards the big 3 in Belfast when it comes to the Ulster Academy.

But the oldest of any of those players from Inst is at max 22 so not yet and its not that bad that none havent yet. It is strange but any reason they havent? Any in particular who you thought should have played at a pro level.
They do train as much and coaches generally are very good as well.

Anyway could most of these posts be moved to a different thread for its own discussion??? Well deserves it at this stage.

jacothelad

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Very weak excuse-making. Ulster are also lucky to have their own private schools. And rather than looking over the fence at their neighbours with envy, they should ask why the small number of very elite rugby schools in Leinster are more productive than the very small number of very elite rugby schools in Ulster.

There are no 'elite' schools in existence since changes in law in N.I. There are no longer fee paying, private schools and schools are discouraged from actively selecting pupils. There is also the decreasing numbers of pupils from the 'rugby' community attending any schools that are capable of putting out a rugby team. Most schools are too small. Many previous rugby schools have closed. Demography will out.......sadly.

jacothelad

Squidgy Black wrote: »

The schools system definitely plays a huge part.

If you look at the academies and the schools that are feeding the academies, Michaels with 600 pupils, Blackrock 1000, Belvedere 1000, Terenure 700, compare that to the bigger schools in Ulster like RBAI 1400, Methodist 1800, Wallace 1300, Campbell 900, and yet they don't produce anywhere near close to the numbers that Leinster do.

Whether that's Ulster Rugby not being as involved with the schools, or something to do with the academy setup itself, who knows.

You could also argue that Ulster would have a bigger base of kids playing rugby than Leinster. There isn't as much competition from GAA, and even soccer. Both sports drown out rugby quite significantly down South.

Just a point of information. Methodist College and Wallace are non-fee paying, state schools that are both co-educational. The numbers you quote also include prep schools for Inst (Inch Marlo) Campbell College (Cabin Hill), Methody (2 schools, Downey House and Fullerton School) The numbers are not directly comparable as they include large numbers of primary age children and hundreds of girls. Great to be there mind. I had a great time and had the good sense to turn down an offer of a teaching post at my alma mater, M.C.B.......The most dangerous job in education.....:D:D:D....all those 6th form girls. Get thee behind me Satan.

Yeah_Right

I look at Leinster rugby and compare it to my hometown and I'm jealous. Auckland would be similar to Dublin: population of over 1.5 million, approximately a third of the country live there, economic centre, lots of immigrants from the rest of the country and overseas. The Auckland region has a production line of schoolboy rugby players that puts Leinster's to shame.

Yet the Blues haven't won **** since 2003. Can't remember the last time they made the playoffs. Don't think it was this decade. The NPC teams have also been on a pretty barren run for the last 10 plus years. A lot of the top talent ends up in other regions or other countries.

Clearly Leinster rugby are doing something right. Maybe Ulster rugby should get in touch with the Crusaders and find out how to build a successful rugby club with less resources.

jacothelad

bilston wrote: »

I don't really see any reason why Inst, MCB and Campbell don't produce the same numbers of high standard players as Blackrock, St Michaels etc. I'm pretty sure they train as much and have some excellent coaches.

Inst has been the dominant team in Ulster for a while winning the last 3 Schools Cups and as yet no one from those 3 teams has gone on to represent Ulster at senior level, in fact there are only two Inst players in the Ulster Academy. That's quite strange IMO, and last year in particular they were miles ahead of everyone else in Ulster. It also exposes the myth that there is an inherent bias towards the big 3 in Belfast when it comes to the Ulster Academy.

I kepp saying it but it doesn't seem to resonate. Many guys who could possibly be of pro standard have no interest in doing so. Queen's University has also a dubious reputation with regard to certain 'activities' that discourages enrolment from these schools apart from Law and Medicine. Most of the 6th formers want to go to G.B. to university.

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I look at Leinster rugby and compare it to my hometown and I'm jealous. Auckland would be similar to Dublin: population of over 1.5 million, approximately a third of the country live there, economic centre, lots of immigrants from the rest of the country and overseas. The Auckland region has a production line of schoolboy rugby players that puts Leinster's to shame.

Yet the Blues haven't won **** since 2003. Can't remember the last time they made the playoffs. Don't think it was this decade. The NPC teams have also been on a pretty barren run for the last 10 plus years. A lot of the top talent ends up in other regions or other countries.

Clearly Leinster rugby are doing something right. Maybe Ulster rugby should get in touch with the Crusaders and find out how to build a successful rugby club with less resources.

One of the greatest mill stones around the neck of Ulster Rugby was the self-serving decision by the 'Committee', about the time the others binned that form of management, to keep control of the junkets and noses in the trough so guys like Cecil Watson still have their destructive, anachronistic and ruinous grip on what happens at Ravenspan. Getting rid of them would be the first thing the IRFU should do.

Clegg

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Clearly Leinster rugby are doing something right. Maybe Ulster rugby should get in touch with the Crusaders and find out how to build a successful rugby club with less resources.

So you're saying ROG will take over in 2020?

irishbucsfan

jacothelad wrote: »

There are no 'elite' schools in existence since changes in law in N.I. There are no longer fee paying, private schools and schools are discouraged from actively selecting pupils. There is also the decreasing numbers of pupils from the 'rugby' community attending any schools that are capable of putting out a rugby team. Most schools are too small. Many previous rugby schools have closed. Demography will out.......sadly.

I actually meant elite in rugby terms, IE the guys who always seem to be in the final 4 of the Senior Cup. But in Dublin those schools also tend to be the other form of elite...!

irishfan9

RBAI's top players in 3 year run:

Michael Lowry(Outhalf)(Academy)
James Hume(Centre)(Academy)
Rhys O'Donnell(Scrumhalf)(Sub Academy)
Callum Reid(Prop)(Sub Academy)
Mark Keane(Wing)(Sub Academy)
Joe Finnegan(Fullback)(gap year in NZ)
Corrie Barrett(Prop)(playing rugby in NZ)

David McCann is still in school and almost certain to make the academy too.

only a matter of time until Lowry/Hume play for Ulster.. Reid too if he commits to pro rugby..

lots of drama around o'donnell..

Keane has a good chance, while Finnegan/Barrett are the other side of the world..

awec

I think Rhys ODonnell is no longer in the sub academy.

irishfan9

awec wrote: »

I think Rhys ODonnell is no longer in the sub academy.

quite possibly, lots of drama around him and Campbell.

prawnsambo

jacothelad wrote: »

One of the greatest mill stones around the neck of Ulster Rugby was the self-serving decision by the 'Committee', about the time the others binned that form of management, to keep control of the junkets and noses in the trough so guys like Cecil Watson still have their destructive, anachronistic and ruinous grip on what happens at Ravenspan. Getting rid of them would be the first thing the IRFU should do.

Yep. It seems it's still run like a club:

Committee2016.jpg_rdax_80.jpg

Some collection of blazers :eek:

awec

irishfan9 wrote: »

quite possibly, lots of drama around him and Campbell.

Yea there was talk a few months back that he'd fallen out with Campbell and left the academy.

irishfan9

awec wrote: »

Yea there was talk a few months back that he'd fallen out with Campbell and left the academy.

heard they have history previous to this season..

stephen_n

jacothelad wrote: »

No. Let's look at the end of the season, not over 12 games mostly against dross in which we have lost to Zebre, beat Treviso by 1 point, drew with the Dragons, got butthoked by Connacht and conceded almost 100 points and 15 tries in 3 Interpros. Let's not distort things to suit an argument one way or another.

Well yes that makes perfect sense, except Awec was saying the results have been poor to date, not they will be poor at the end of the season. You can’t state what may or may not be the case in 4 months time, as a matter of fact now. The performances have been poor but as of now the results are not. So the distortion is not my point, it’s yours.

stephen_n

jacothelad wrote: »

.

One of the greatest mill stones around the neck of Ulster Rugby was the self-serving decision by the 'Committee', about the time the others binned that form of management, to keep control of the junkets and noses in the trough so guys like Cecil Watson still have their destructive, anachronistic and ruinous grip on what happens at Ravenspan. Getting rid of them would be the first thing the IRFU should do.

The only problem there being the IRFU serve the provinces, not the other way around. At least in terms of that kind of thing, the rugby end thankfully is different. But in terms of removing or restructuring, Ulster would have more say in the IRFU, than the other way around.

awec

stephen_n wrote: »

Well yes that makes perfect sense, except Awec was saying the results have been poor to date, not they will be poor at the end of the season. You can’t state what may or may not be the case in 4 months time, as a matter of fact now. The performances have been poor but as of now the results are not. So the distortion is not my point, it’s yours.

Pedantry.

Look at who Ulster have played this season, look at our points total. Results have been poor, it's hard to deny.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Pedantry.

Look at who Ulster have played this season, look at our points total. Results have been poor, it's hard to deny.

Look at the absentee list though. Leinster fans are getting antsy with news of Ringrose's and Tracy's injuries and that's probably only a tenth of what Ulster have been dealing with all season. Clermont are in pretty much the same boat and their results have fallen off a cliff. Absolutely trashed by Racing last weekend.

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

Look at the absentee list though. Leinster fans are getting antsy with news of Ringrose's and Tracy's injuries and that's probably only a tenth of what Ulster have been dealing with all season. Clermont are in pretty much the same boat and their results have fallen off a cliff. Absolutely trashed by Racing last weekend.

Yeah but it's not just a lack of ability. There's a clear lack of commitment and confidence. Fans would be less agitated if it was a plucky/committed performance that wasn't quite enough. But the performances are soft.

errlloyd

I side with the Ulster fans on here regarding results. MOC had a decent run of results with Leinster on paper, but I still hated the rugby we were playing and wanted him out. It's hard to know what led to what, but we're in a better place now.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah but it's not just a lack of ability. There's a clear lack of commitment and confidence. Fans would be less agitated if it was a plucky/committed performance that wasn't quite enough. But the performances are soft.

Yeah. I agree with that. They look beaten before they take to the pitch. But I would be of the belief that the many absentees for such a protracted period have led to that. Or at least it's a contributing factor imo.

Have you ever taken to the field, looked around at your team mates and said to yourself, "We're going to be trashed here"?

irishfan9

Ulster had 10 schools players in Ireland u18 training camp over christmas..

MDunne14

irishfan9 wrote: »

Ulster had 10 schools players in Ireland u18 training camp over christmas..

Do you have a list of the players that were there??

[Deleted User]

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Munster didnt make enough of the success of 2006 and 2008.

I think it's pretty well known at this stage that during Munster's period of success the academy wasn't looked after very well. There was a huge vacuum left when the forwards in particular began to retire.