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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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splinter65

MrPudding wrote: »

Give them to my child so they did not have to go through with a pregnancy? Every day, and twice on Sunday. If they sold them on Costco I would buy a big pack of them just in case.

That is really stupid question. Let me give you an example to show why... would you rather give your child pills that will make her bleed from every orifice or let her remain pregnant with their rapist's child that will likely physically damage or kill her because she is only 9 and her body is too small? See. I can do silly appeals to emotion too.

MrP

So your only in favor of abortion in the cases of rape and incest?
Or are you just throwing it in there for the purposes of silly appeal to emotion, knowing that rape and incest is a reason given for abortion in such a minuscule tiny almost nonexistent percentage of abortions?
Interesting that you would by a stack of abortion pills from Costco for your child (? are we in the States or Ireland), in preference over reliable safe contraception coupled with safe sex practices.
I suppose there’s no point in campaigning for and fighting for the equipment if your not going to use it when it gets here.

Edward M

PeterParker957 wrote: »

No brain stem, no person.

Brain stem formed 15-18 weeks gestation typically.

Thought we needed a bit of science over the fluffy nonsense.

A scientist, and there was me thinking all pregnancies were immaculate conceptions.

A life has been formed though, a human life at that.
I think that is a person, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

splinter65

seamus wrote: »

So you agree then. Abortion pills should be provided under the supervision of a qualified medical professional, and women should not be forced to resort to buying them online.

Great. Thanks for clearing that up.

Yes because they’re not going to buy them cheaply on the internet once
they’re decriminalised..

splinter65

volchitsa wrote: »

Did you miss that biology class? It happens every month.

It happens every month. Naturally, as a consequence of my body’s own biology.
The product of a uterus that has been growing a baby for 3 months bears no resemblance to the shedding of a uterine lining that is not needed after 21 days.
You can try to convince yourself that it does, but it doesn’t.
Anyone who has had a 12 week miscarriage will vouch for that.
So, not the same thing at all as a chemically induced abortion.
People in favor of abortion work so hard to convince themselves that it’s all very simple and straightforward and clean and tidy, and nobody, but nobody, mother or baby suffers or gets hurt in any way.
Inducing a chemical abortion at home is a great step forward for the health of women and children .
Sure.

seamus

splinter65 wrote: »

Yes piles. Just the very same thing as inducing an abortion at home with pills you bought on the Internet.

So you agree then. Abortion pills should be provided under the supervision of a qualified medical professional, and women should not be forced to resort to buying them online.

Great. Thanks for clearing that up.

splinter65

frag420 wrote: »

I’ve got piles currently...

Yes piles. Just the very same thing as inducing an abortion at home with pills you bought on the Internet.
No difference whatsoever.
No risk being taken. Safe as houses. Like all abortions.

volchitsa

splinter65 wrote: »

But the proposals include the decriminalisation of abortion pills.
Are you happy to take pills at home that will cause you to bleed profusely from an orifice, are you happy to give them to your child?

Did you miss that biology class? It happens every month.

MrPudding

splinter65 wrote: »

But the proposals include the decriminalisation of abortion pills.
Are you happy to take pills at home that will cause you to bleed profusely from an orifice, are you happy to give them to your child?

Give them to my child so they did not have to go through with a pregnancy? Every day, and twice on Sunday. If they sold them on Costco I would buy a big pack of them just in case.

That is really stupid question. Let me give you an example to show why... would you rather give your child pills that will make her bleed from every orifice or let her remain pregnant with their rapist's child that will likely physically damage or kill her because she is only 9 and her body is too small? See. I can do silly appeals to emotion too.

MrP

eviltwin

splinter65 wrote: »

But the proposals include the decriminalisation of abortion pills.
Are you happy to take pills at home that will cause you to bleed profusely from an orifice, are you happy to give them to your child?

Why would you give them to a child

frag420

splinter65 wrote: »

But the proposals include the decriminalisation of abortion pills.
Are you happy to take pills at home that will cause you to bleed profusely from an orifice, are you happy to give them to your child?

I’ve got piles currently...

Hotblack Desiato

captbarnacles wrote: »

Worse than the Hawe case for example?

But it's not murder and has never been considered murder here.

Not even under the 1861 Act. So some people here have attitudes which even in the 19th century were considered abhorrent.

splinter65

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Hence the 8th needs to be repealed

But the proposals include the decriminalisation of abortion pills.
Are you happy to take pills at home that will cause you to bleed profusely from an orifice, are you happy to give them to your child?

PeterParker957

splinter65 wrote: »

volchitsa wrote: »

A woman who takes abortion pills ordered online?

No. The maker of , the distributor of, the sender of, the abortion pills.
I have the deepest sympathy for anyone, man or woman who is going to take tablets, unsupervised by a medical professional, designed to cause her to bleed profusely.

Hence the 8th needs to be repealed

splinter65

volchitsa wrote: »

A woman who takes abortion pills ordered online?

No. The maker of , the distributor of, the sender of, the abortion pills.
I have the deepest sympathy for anyone, man or woman who is going to take tablets, unsupervised by a medical professional, designed to cause her to bleed profusely.

PeterParker957

Edward M wrote: »

Quote: eviltwin
I had an abortion. Do I deserve to be in prison?.

Quote: January
I did too. Do I deserve to be in prison?

No, such emotive accusations are wrong of course.
People kill legally all the time worldwide, war, self defence, police in serving justice, even death sentences etc etc.
That doesent mean though that someone hasn't been killed, an innocent in many cases, I would view abortion in this way.

No brain stem, no person.

Brain stem formed 15-18 weeks gestation typically.

Thought we needed a bit of science over the fluffy nonsense.

volchitsa

eviltwin wrote: »

And that's why I can't take the pro life argument seriously. I don't agree with Da Boss but at least he is consistent.

It really is the most cowardly dodge isn't it?

They'd have us believe they think women are just too stupid to know what they're doing when they seek out an abortion, or that evil abortionists grab them in off the street. I wonder is the idea that women generally are too silly to know the difference between right and wrong, or do they imagine pregnancy frazzles our brains?

TBH I suspect they're lying about what they really believe, and they would be perfectly happy with a Nicaraguan-style regime where women are imprisoned even for unexplained miscarriages, never mind actual abortion, but they daren't expose the depth of their extremism because they know very few people in Ireland still think like that these days.

frag420

Da Boss wrote: »

All murderers should serve their time

What about me? I gave a friend of my GF in college many years ago the money to procure an abortion in England!

What sentence should I get?

Also, should someone who had an abortion after being raped get a longer sentence than her rapist?

Edward M

Quote: eviltwin
I had an abortion. Do I deserve to be in prison?.

Quote: January
I did too. Do I deserve to be in prison?

No, such emotive accusations are wrong of course.
People kill legally all the time worldwide, war, self defence, police in serving justice, even death sentences etc etc.
That doesent mean though that someone hasn't been killed, an innocent in many cases, I would view abortion in this way.

gctest50

Da Boss wrote: »

All murderers should serve their time

Meat is murder according to some

Do you eat pig ?

- they're about the same intelligence as a 2 year old child maybe

eviltwin

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m pro life and I don’t think any woman who has an abortion deserves to be in prison.
The abortionist is the criminal.

And that's why I can't take the pro life argument seriously. I don't agree with Da Boss but at least he is consistent.

eviltwin

Da Boss wrote: »

All murderers should serve their time

Isn't it odd how you are the only person to say that?

[Deleted User]

Da Boss wrote: »

All murderers should serve their time

If one disagrees that a 12 week old foetus is a human life

and this is a matter of opinion

and the majority of people seem not to agree with you in Ireland in 2017

then what are you getting out of adding more and more emotional pronouns to your opinions?

You haven't posted a fact yet. If you even admitted that you had nothing but strong opinions it would at least be a start.

Your strong opinions, by the way, will be utterly irrelevant the day after women get control over their own reproductive health in Ireland. You won't even have a forum like this to get your self-righteous kicks from

volchitsa

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m pro life and I don’t think any woman who has an abortion deserves to be in prison.
The abortionist is the criminal.

A woman who takes abortion pills ordered online?

volchitsa

Da Boss wrote: »

All murderers should serve their time

So why do you think not a single identifiable pro-life person (I don't count anonymous internet posters) is prepared to say anything like this in public?

Do you think it is because they don't agree with you that it is murder, or because they do but they feel that they can't be honest about the true extent of their beliefs because it would lose them public support?

splinter65

January wrote: »

I did too. Do I deserve to be in prison?

I’m pro life and I don’t think any woman who has an abortion deserves to be in prison.
The abortionist is the criminal.

Da Boss

eviltwin wrote: »

I had an abortion. Do I deserve to be in prison?.

All murderers should serve their time

January

eviltwin wrote: »

I had an abortion. Do I deserve to be in prison?.

I did too. Do I deserve to be in prison?

Da Boss

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Sorry, I refuse to engage you any more. You are like a broken record at this stage. Your opinion on abortion is not supriour to another woman's rights and bodily autonomy. Nothing you say will change my mind on that.

You can’t face the facts , that’s your problem, unable to admit you condone MURDER , The KILLINGS of defenseless unborn . The 8th amendment is about so much more than woman’s freedom, it’s about SAVING LIVES OF THOUSANDS, legalized abortion cos cause more loss of life than English colonization ever did on this island

Da Boss

WhiteRoses wrote: »

If that's how you feel, then feel free to never have one yourself.
However, don't assume to believe you can dictate the choices another person makes about their OWN life. It's the height of arrogance to believe you opinion is so superior it should be applied to the whole country.

It is none of your business what decisions another woman makes for her body, her life, her family, her future, her self. Absolutely none.

Abortion affects more than just the woman, as it end the life of another , a child. I’m not against personal liberty but it CANNOT result I’m the looks of precious life that occurs in abortion, denying defenseless children their most basic right. .The right to life

MrPudding

Edward M wrote: »

Just on the prosecution of abortion travellers, how could that be enforced anyway?
I'm no legal expert, but how would it be possible to prosecute someone for an offence committed in a foreign state that isn't illegal in that other state anyway?
That argument wouldn't stand up I'd say.

NuMarvel wrote: »

As you say, we can't criminalise an act that takes place outside our jurisdiction...

The bit in bold simply isn't true. Not sure if there is any equivalent in Ireland but the UK, also a common law country with a very similar legal system has at least two laws like this. The Bribery Act 2010 makes it a criminal offence, prosecutable in the uk, for any British person, or any person involved in a company that operates in the UK, to pay a bribe to any person, in any country, even if the particular act is not a crime in the country where it took place.

The UK can also prosecute people for having sex with minors abroad. Again, I believe this is irrespective of the age of consent in the country where the act took place.

If there was a will to do it, it could be done. But there isn't, so it won't.

Da Boss wrote: »

Abortion is murder, that’s not debatable, it’s fact.

Three assertions in one sentence and you only managed to get one right. Abortion is not murder, nor is that a fact. You are however right that it is not debatable, except that it is not debatable that it is murder.

You might believe really, really hard that it is murder, but that does not make it so. I am sure you are aware, and presumably delighted, that a woman that procures an abortion can be prosecuted.

What is such a woman procedures for? Is it murder? I will give you a clue. No. It isn't. And that kind of defeats your two assertions. If a woman has an illegal abortion and does not get charged with murder, then an abortion is not murder. Fact.

MrP