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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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end of the road

captbarnacles wrote: »

Worse than the Hawe case for example?

But it's not murder and has never been considered murder here.

thankfully however the state doesn't allow it's practice within it bar extreme circumstances.

SusieBlue

Da Boss wrote: »

Well if you want my opinions you can have them. Firstly I’m of the belief that abortion is the worst of all murders, killing a defenseless child in a womb and denying it of its basic human rights such as to walk talk LIVE. Abortion is murder, that’s not debatable, it’s fact. Mullen McGrath and Fitzpatrick are men who take heed thier conscience and i applaud them in there fight to safe lives of so many.

If that's how you feel, then feel free to never have one yourself.
However, don't assume to believe you can dictate the choices another person makes about their own life. It's the height of arrogance to believe you opinion is so superior it should be applied to the whole country.

It is none of your business what decisions another woman makes for her body, her life, her family, her future, her self. Absolutely none.

NuMarvel

end of the road wrote: »

thankfully however the state doesn't allow it's practice within it bar extreme circumstances.

Gee, that's the first time I've ever seen you say that

end of the road

WhiteRoses wrote: »

If that's how you feel, then feel free to never have one yourself.
However, don't assume to believe you can dictate the choices another person makes about their own life. It's the height of arrogance to believe you opinion is so superior it should be applied to the whole country.

when it involves someone harming someone else or a would be someone else, we have a right as a society to dictate that such should not be allowed to happen in our country unless it's absolutely necessary, AKA that someone is under threat of death. so when a woman wants to kill her unborn baby, we have to insure that does not happen within the state unless absolutely necessary, as in she is under threat or the baby is going to pass away. society has a duty to stand up for the moral good and the opinion that the unborn shouldn't be killed unless there is a danger to life is a superior opinion to those who want abortion on demand. sorry but it is

WhiteRoses wrote: »

It is none of your business what decisions another woman makes for her body, her life, her family, her future, her self. Absolutely none.

agreed. however when she is harming someone else or a would be someone else such as the unborn, it very much is society's business, especially as we are being asked to vote on this, which has made it our business. we have a duty to insure the state doesn't allow abortion on demand to happen within it. that is why repeal will hopefully fail, because while it's repealing would sort other issues that do need to be sorted, it cannot be at the expence of removing protection for the unborn.

SusieBlue

end of the road wrote: »

when it involves someone harming someone else or a would be someone else, we have a right as a society to dictate that such should not be allowed to happen in our country unless it's absolutely necessary, AKA that someone is under threat of death. so when a woman wants to kill her unborn baby, we have to insure that does not happen within the state unless absolutely necessary, as in she is under threat or the baby is going to pass away. society has a duty to stand up for the moral good and the opinion that the unborn shouldn't be killed unless there is a danger to life is a superior opinion to those who want abortion on demand. sorry but it is

agreed. however when she is harming someone else or a would be someone else such as the unborn, it very much is society's business, especially as we are being asked to vote on this, which has made it our business. we have a duty to insure the state doesn't allow abortion on demand to happen within it. that is why repeal will hopefully fail, because while it's repealing would sort other issues that do need to be sorted, it cannot be at the expence of removing protection for the unborn.

Sorry, I refuse to engage you any more. You are like a broken record at this stage. Your opinion on abortion is not supriour to another woman's rights and bodily autonomy. Nothing you say will change my mind on that.

Loafing Oaf

WhiteRoses wrote: »

It is none of your business what decisions another woman makes for her body, her life, her family, her future, her self. Absolutely none.

I beg to differ. He/she is DA BOSS!

end of the road

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Sorry, I refuse to engage you any more.

because you cannot argue against what has been said. you know abortion on demand is wrong. i know it is wrong. everyone knows it is wrong. refusing to debate me won't change that fact.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

You are like a broken record at this stage.

i'm really not. i have throughout given my viewpoint on the topic from a number of sides. however ultimately it will come back to insuring that protections for the unborn remain, as i believe that is the right thing to do.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Your opinion on abortion is not supriour to another woman's rights and bodily autonomy.

i never once said it was, i said it was superior to the view that abortion on demand should be allowed within the irish state. which it is .
abortion on demand is not a right and the state refusing to provide it does not go against a woman's bodily autonomy or her rights. refusing to provide it where there is a threat to her life would go against her right to live and that is why i am accepting of such provision.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Nothing you say will change my mind on that.

i'm not here to change minds. i know i'm not going to change minds. however, i do want to remind people or try to get them to see that the unborn have rights, and that removing those rights would be damaging to society. the unborn have a right to be protected as much as everyone else, and that abortion on demand not being provided within the irish state is a good thing for society and does not go against one's rights. one does not have a right to kill the unborn bar very extreme circumstances.
not legislating for abortion on demand would go a huge way to insuring the 8th could be repealed, as there are many like me who would vote repeal if abortion on demand wouldn't happen.

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Funny how so many of those most vocal against abortion are men, isn't it? I wonder if they'd be singing the same tune if they had to deal with pregnancy themselves.

I'm not saying men shouldn't have a voice in this debate, of course they should, and I'm a man myself. Does it not strike you as a bit odd though that those most vocal about the subject are those who can literally just run away from a pregnancy if it suits them?

the vast majority of those men likely have children, or want to have children, and do not wish to allow a situation where they are at greater risk of having that child aborted in the future. granted they can't stop their partner going to england, but there is always that chance of an abortion not being proceeded with while the current system exists.

eviltwin

Da Boss wrote: »

Yes, the Hawe situation is deeply regrettable and wrong, commiserations to the family, but yeah abortion is similar as it also involves the murder of innocent defenseless children. Murder- the act of killing someone , precisely what abortion is, simple truth

I had an abortion. Do I deserve to be in prison?.

FizzleSticks

This post has been deleted.

Sofiztikated

monnies wrote: »

how would you like to have been aborted yourself, i bet you wouldn't have liked it one little bit, so kindly verpiss dich

I've got a medical condition, that usually presents along with spina bifida, but didn't, in my case. I've had 15 + corrective surgeries. I have scar tissue from above my bellybutton (which I don't actually have) to the base of my penis. When I was 15 I underwent a surgery that, at the time, was longer than open heart surgery, and one of the first properly successful ones conducted in Ireland.

One night a while ago, my 75 year old mother admitted that if she had known about the condition, she would have considered an abortion. As it happened, it wasn't spotted until birth.

I'm perfectly ok with the fact that I could have been aborted. She's been through more stress and worry, sleepless nights, working night shifts so she could be there for me during the day, fighting with a health system that didn't understand my condition, fighting with a school system that didn't understand the condition. This comes after her dealing with a society that wanted to take her first child of her because she had the absolute gaul to get pregnant out of wedlock, 2 miscarriages, 7 other healthy children.

She's a brilliant, strong woman, who would have made a hard decision. And I ****ing respect her decision.

TheQuietFella

Geuze wrote: »

Do we all have the right to do what we like with our bodies?

Should we?

If I walk into the hospital and ask for my leg to be cut off, should that be done?

The rules though in every sense do not apply to women!

MrPudding

Edward M wrote: »

Just on the prosecution of abortion travellers, how could that be enforced anyway?
I'm no legal expert, but how would it be possible to prosecute someone for an offence committed in a foreign state that isn't illegal in that other state anyway?
That argument wouldn't stand up I'd say.

NuMarvel wrote: »

As you say, we can't criminalise an act that takes place outside our jurisdiction...

The bit in bold simply isn't true. Not sure if there is any equivalent in Ireland but the UK, also a common law country with a very similar legal system has at least two laws like this. The Bribery Act 2010 makes it a criminal offence, prosecutable in the uk, for any British person, or any person involved in a company that operates in the UK, to pay a bribe to any person, in any country, even if the particular act is not a crime in the country where it took place.

The UK can also prosecute people for having sex with minors abroad. Again, I believe this is irrespective of the age of consent in the country where the act took place.

If there was a will to do it, it could be done. But there isn't, so it won't.

Da Boss wrote: »

Abortion is murder, that’s not debatable, it’s fact.

Three assertions in one sentence and you only managed to get one right. Abortion is not murder, nor is that a fact. You are however right that it is not debatable, except that it is not debatable that it is murder.

You might believe really, really hard that it is murder, but that does not make it so. I am sure you are aware, and presumably delighted, that a woman that procures an abortion can be prosecuted.

What is such a woman procedures for? Is it murder? I will give you a clue. No. It isn't. And that kind of defeats your two assertions. If a woman has an illegal abortion and does not get charged with murder, then an abortion is not murder. Fact.

MrP

Da Boss

WhiteRoses wrote: »

If that's how you feel, then feel free to never have one yourself.
However, don't assume to believe you can dictate the choices another person makes about their OWN life. It's the height of arrogance to believe you opinion is so superior it should be applied to the whole country.

It is none of your business what decisions another woman makes for her body, her life, her family, her future, her self. Absolutely none.

Abortion affects more than just the woman, as it end the life of another , a child. I’m not against personal liberty but it CANNOT result I’m the looks of precious life that occurs in abortion, denying defenseless children their most basic right. .The right to life

Da Boss

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Sorry, I refuse to engage you any more. You are like a broken record at this stage. Your opinion on abortion is not supriour to another woman's rights and bodily autonomy. Nothing you say will change my mind on that.

You can’t face the facts , that’s your problem, unable to admit you condone MURDER , The KILLINGS of defenseless unborn . The 8th amendment is about so much more than woman’s freedom, it’s about SAVING LIVES OF THOUSANDS, legalized abortion cos cause more loss of life than English colonization ever did on this island

January

eviltwin wrote: »

I had an abortion. Do I deserve to be in prison?.

I did too. Do I deserve to be in prison?

Da Boss

eviltwin wrote: »

I had an abortion. Do I deserve to be in prison?.

All murderers should serve their time

splinter65

January wrote: »

I did too. Do I deserve to be in prison?

I’m pro life and I don’t think any woman who has an abortion deserves to be in prison.
The abortionist is the criminal.

volchitsa

Da Boss wrote: »

All murderers should serve their time

So why do you think not a single identifiable pro-life person (I don't count anonymous internet posters) is prepared to say anything like this in public?

Do you think it is because they don't agree with you that it is murder, or because they do but they feel that they can't be honest about the true extent of their beliefs because it would lose them public support?

volchitsa

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m pro life and I don’t think any woman who has an abortion deserves to be in prison.
The abortionist is the criminal.

A woman who takes abortion pills ordered online?

[Deleted User]

Da Boss wrote: »

All murderers should serve their time

If one disagrees that a 12 week old foetus is a human life

and this is a matter of opinion

and the majority of people seem not to agree with you in Ireland in 2017

then what are you getting out of adding more and more emotional pronouns to your opinions?

You haven't posted a fact yet. If you even admitted that you had nothing but strong opinions it would at least be a start.

Your strong opinions, by the way, will be utterly irrelevant the day after women get control over their own reproductive health in Ireland. You won't even have a forum like this to get your self-righteous kicks from

eviltwin

Da Boss wrote: »

All murderers should serve their time

Isn't it odd how you are the only person to say that?

eviltwin

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m pro life and I don’t think any woman who has an abortion deserves to be in prison.
The abortionist is the criminal.

And that's why I can't take the pro life argument seriously. I don't agree with Da Boss but at least he is consistent.

gctest50

Da Boss wrote: »

All murderers should serve their time

Meat is murder according to some

Do you eat pig ?

- they're about the same intelligence as a 2 year old child maybe

Edward M

Quote: eviltwin
I had an abortion. Do I deserve to be in prison?.

Quote: January
I did too. Do I deserve to be in prison?

No, such emotive accusations are wrong of course.
People kill legally all the time worldwide, war, self defence, police in serving justice, even death sentences etc etc.
That doesent mean though that someone hasn't been killed, an innocent in many cases, I would view abortion in this way.

frag420

Da Boss wrote: »

All murderers should serve their time

What about me? I gave a friend of my GF in college many years ago the money to procure an abortion in England!

What sentence should I get?

Also, should someone who had an abortion after being raped get a longer sentence than her rapist?

volchitsa

eviltwin wrote: »

And that's why I can't take the pro life argument seriously. I don't agree with Da Boss but at least he is consistent.

It really is the most cowardly dodge isn't it?

They'd have us believe they think women are just too stupid to know what they're doing when they seek out an abortion, or that evil abortionists grab them in off the street. I wonder is the idea that women generally are too silly to know the difference between right and wrong, or do they imagine pregnancy frazzles our brains?

TBH I suspect they're lying about what they really believe, and they would be perfectly happy with a Nicaraguan-style regime where women are imprisoned even for unexplained miscarriages, never mind actual abortion, but they daren't expose the depth of their extremism because they know very few people in Ireland still think like that these days.

PeterParker957

Edward M wrote: »

Quote: eviltwin
I had an abortion. Do I deserve to be in prison?.

Quote: January
I did too. Do I deserve to be in prison?

No, such emotive accusations are wrong of course.
People kill legally all the time worldwide, war, self defence, police in serving justice, even death sentences etc etc.
That doesent mean though that someone hasn't been killed, an innocent in many cases, I would view abortion in this way.

No brain stem, no person.

Brain stem formed 15-18 weeks gestation typically.

Thought we needed a bit of science over the fluffy nonsense.

splinter65

volchitsa wrote: »

A woman who takes abortion pills ordered online?

No. The maker of , the distributor of, the sender of, the abortion pills.
I have the deepest sympathy for anyone, man or woman who is going to take tablets, unsupervised by a medical professional, designed to cause her to bleed profusely.

PeterParker957

splinter65 wrote: »

volchitsa wrote: »

A woman who takes abortion pills ordered online?

No. The maker of , the distributor of, the sender of, the abortion pills.
I have the deepest sympathy for anyone, man or woman who is going to take tablets, unsupervised by a medical professional, designed to cause her to bleed profusely.

Hence the 8th needs to be repealed

splinter65

PeterParker957 wrote: »

Hence the 8th needs to be repealed

But the proposals include the decriminalisation of abortion pills.
Are you happy to take pills at home that will cause you to bleed profusely from an orifice, are you happy to give them to your child?