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Child Item

Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

Nekarsulm

News this morning....

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/05/10/4139761-body-of-alan-hawe-being-exhumed-this-morning/

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McCrack

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It is pretty sickening when a murderer is remembered more than the victims

In particularly infamous or gruesome murders the murderer or murderers will often be well remembered

Think mark chapman, moors murderers, ted bundy etc

Nothing particularly unusual at that

splinter65

jh79 wrote: »

The Star has the letter and no reason was given for the murders. It seems the "fall from grace" was all in his head.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sorry-for-how-i-murdered-them-all-alan-hawes-final-note-confessing-to-killing-wife-and-three-sons-36423941.html

All in his head is the understatement of the year. He told his GP he was washing his feet with bleach but no red flags are raised.
Patient confidentiality rules should be reviewed when dealing with patients displaying worrying signs.

iamwhoiam

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It is pretty sickening when a murderer is remembered more than the victims

The Independent referring to Clodagh as " his wfe " is bad journalism . She deserves to be called by her name Clodagh . As so the boys Liam , Niall and Ryan .
So let's remember them by name on this thread . Rest in peace Clodagh , Liam , Niall , and Ryan .

seamus

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Yeah, why did they not read out the suicide letter. Surely, it explains why he did it?

The coroner said it was intended to establish four limited but factual questions - who the deceased were; when and where they died; and how they died.

Motive was not in the scope of this hearing.
The purpose was not to discuss why it happened.

The purpose of the evidence from Prof. Kennedy and Hawe's doctors was to establish whether the attack happened suddenly or whether it had been building for weeks, whether it was predictable - this is part of the "how"; establishing context.

splinter65 wrote: »

All in his head is the understatement of the year. He told his GP he was washing his feet with bleach but no red flags are raised.
Patient confidentiality rules should be reviewed when dealing with patients displaying worrying signs.

It's worrying in hindsight. Not so worrying at the time. As far as his GP was aware he trying to get rid of a fungal infection and using Dettol - the kind of self-treatment that a lot of people would do after a quick chat with Dr. Google. Stupid, but not really out of the ordinary.

Patient confidentiality can be broken when the doctor has reason to believe the patient poses an immediate danger to himself or others. Someone going to a GP saying they're trying to get rid of a fungal infection using dettol and feeling a bit stressed about work, doesn't sound like an immediate danger to anyone.

NIMAN

Playing devil's advocate here, but there seemed to be a great push in society in recent years to understand mental illness.

However, this case, as extreme as it was, seems to have thrown out the rulebook. He was just an evil monster apparently, not a man suffering severe mental illness.

C__MC

Just read the reports in the daily star
An horrific act by a sick man, as I said yesterday may he rot for eternity.

RIP to clodagh and the boys.

demfad

NIMAN wrote: »

Playing devil's advocate here, but there seemed to be a great push in society in recent years to understand mental illness.

However, this case, as extreme as it was, seems to have thrown out the rulebook. He was just an evil monster apparently, not a man suffering severe mental illness.

If youre not willing to read through the thread before posting perhaps this explanation will help you:

He had his reasons.

iamwhoiam

demfad wrote: »

If youre not willing to read through the thread before posting perhaps this explanation will help you:

He had his reasons.

" A Reason " does not necessarily rule out him being a cruel and controlling man .

Lackey

jh79 wrote: »

The Star has the letter and no reason was given for the murders. It seems the "fall from grace" was all in his head.

Newspapers reporting fall from grace was about a 'sexual matter'

some of note reads:
"I'm sorry for how I murdered them all but I had no other way.

"I had to do this. I can't leave the boys orphans. I couldn't just up and leave them.

"I have wanted to kill myself for a long time now and I could not bear the thought of leaving my mess and the anger and rejection that Clodagh and the boys would have to live with forever.

"I didn't want them to be thought of less than by people just because of the way their father was,"

A lot of 'I' statements there.

I agree with the Coll family questioning mental illness as a reason for the murders in the newspapers today...very respectfully as always.

The planning was meticulous down to clearing his attack route of furniture...and to stop and transfer all their money into his own account so his family would be sole heirs.
There were mental illness issues...But not guilty by reason of insanity ...no chance

pjohnson

NIMAN wrote: »

Playing devil's advocate here, but there seemed to be a great push in society in recent years to understand mental illness.

However, this case, as extreme as it was, seems to have thrown out the rulebook. He was just an evil monster apparently, not a man suffering severe mental illness.

As said many times. Mental health issues does not a murderer make. The insistence of people who clearly dont understand mental health issues to try and classify this as a mental health issue will probably only make things worse.

Someone with an actual mental illness may now fear they pose a threat to loved ones if this is painted as a mental health issue. While its a great excuse to try and make the killer a sympathetic victim of a crime it doesnt really wash.

bobsman

It appears the whole "fall from grace" thing was in his own head.

He was "head of a church going family", etc. To people like Hawe, a marriage breakdown would be considered a huge shame. He probably didn't want to have to fit the role of divorced Dad of 3. There were obviously issues in the marriage if he was attending marriage guidance counselling too.

Lackey

bobsman wrote: »

It appears the whole "fall from grace" thing was in his own head.

He was "head of a church going family", etc. To people like Hawe, a marriage breakdown would be considered a huge shame. He probably didn't want to have to fit the role of divorced Dad of 3. There were obviously issues in the marriage if he was attending marriage guidance counselling too.

The Irish Sun has also learned Hawe’s feared “fall” from grace was over a “sexual matter”.

demfad

iamwhoiam wrote: »

" A Reason " does not necessarily rule out him being a cruel and controlling man .

The article seems to argue that his reasons make it highly likely he was a cruel and controlling man. It also emphasises the prejudice we have both about 'respected' men and the victorian misconception that people who commit despicable acts must be mentally ill.

dense

Lackey wrote: »

The Irish Sun has also learned Hawe’s feared “fall” from grace was over a “sexual matter”.

The Irish Sun will print anything.

bobsman

Awful for Clodagh's mam, sister and remaining family. They are left with no closure, yet Hawe's parents gain some closure with the "psychotic break" theory

Panrich

Lackey wrote: »

A lot of 'I' statements there.

Exactly. The ego required to carry out this despicable act would have to be very significant.

demfad

bobsman wrote: »

Awful for Clodagh's mam, sister and remaining family. They are left with no closure, yet Hawe's parents gain some closure with the "psychotic break" theory

I think these cases need to be assessed for motive probably both in the inquest and also by an overall view and analysis of many cases.
The inquest is the only means of finding out what happenned. Killers who survive nearly always go down for murder. Killers who succeed in their suicide always are given the 'maybe mentally ill' cover.
Lesson for would be mass murderers is make sure the suicide is successful and your legacy is safe.
I think people are seeing Hawe for what he is based on media reports in this case.

Lackey

dense wrote: »

Lackey wrote: »

The Irish Sun has also learned Hawe’s feared “fall” from grace was over a “sexual matter”.

The Irish Sun will print anything.

The Irish Sun weren't the only ones just first quote I found

dok_golf

There seem to be an awful lot of people who are obviously more qualified then myself, someone who suffered/still at times suffers from severe depression, that have decided that Alan Hawe was evil personified. Maybe he was, but none of us know definitively what happened or what was his state of mind. For the person who said he used the word "I" a lot in the suicide note, that's what depression does. It makes you isolated, insular and depending on the severity, that "everyone is against me". In my opinion, ( and I am no expert, just someone who has suffered episodes of psychosis) there is no way that the actions of Alan Hawe were those of a sane person. It would not surprise me if something happened that put him over the edge. Professor Patricia Casey said this morning that , in her opinion, this was a psychotic episode. Alan Hawe's GP said he didn't show any symptoms of depression. Well, neither did I. Only those in my immediate family ( my wife) could see that something was wrong. I, for one, am not qualified to either pronounce him insane nor evil. I just know, from my own experience that I lean towards mental illness ( or maybe I won't allow myself to believe that such evil exists) and I think "there goes me only for the grace of god".

dense

pjohnson wrote: »

As said many times. Mental health issues does not a murderer make. The insistence of people who clearly dont understand mental health issues to try and classify this as a mental health issue will probably only make things worse.

Someone with an actual mental illness may now fear they pose a threat to loved ones if this is painted as a mental health issue. While its a great excuse to try and make the killer a sympathetic victim of a crime it doesnt really wash.

Far too simplistic.

Cast your mind back.

Much noise and dare I say sympathy and understanding was advanced towards a female who had tried to access mental health services outside of the 9 to 5 in Wexford some years ago.

Her subsequent suicide and murder of her children was widely accepted as being a mental health "issue".

The inference was that had she accessed mental services, the deaths would have been preventable.

It didn't excuse the acts, but it was accepted as an explanation.

Maybe Hawe didn't get the right help, didn't ask for it out of embarrassment, etc and things spiralled out of control literally.

We don't actually know.

The difference here for some is that this guy saw himself as a "pillar of the community".

The phrase, once quite innocent and even complimentary, has become sullied lately by the likes of pervert priests abusing children.

No one here has any knowledge of Hawe that is not just surface headlines nor do they know what went on behind closed doors.

There's nothing wrong with someone just because they want to be a strong member of the community. It's not a bad thing in itself, let's remember that.

Let's not get that confused with the grotesque acts that he carried out.

seamus

Aside from the facts of the case, I really hope that there are supports available for the Gardai in cases like this, such as paid leave and counselling. It all comes part & parcel of the job, but at the end of the day they're only human and I cannot imagine the horror of having to enter that house and see four innocent people so cruelly and senselessly murdered, and the lasting memories and emotional scars that would leave.

Gardai (and other first responders) who are first on murder or crash scenes should be automatically considered for paid leave if recommended by a psychologist IMO.

BinLiner2

Didn't think much of the parents statement tbh

Also noted they didn't bother to attend the inquest

dense

Lackey wrote: »

The Irish Sun weren't the only ones just first quote I found

So? There's nothing, just innuendo.

If you thrive on innuendo, go for it.

bobsman

I struggle with the premeditated aspect of the murders. He meticulously cut the windpipes of his victims so they couldn't cry out. He sorted his financial and other various matters, which is not an easy task. It requires planning and time.

He was obviously having some mental issues but I cannot fathom how a GP who knew him for years did not have some inkling.

eviltwin

I think he was evil not so much because of the murders but the manner of the murders. He butchered them. His lovely wife had a hatchet in her head. His beautiful boys had their throats slit. I just cannot get that out of head that he deliberately stabbed them through the windpipe to prevent them calling for help, that he made sure he took out the strongest first, that he made sure his family were the ones to benefit financially. He even referenced murdering them in his suicide note, there was no sense of taking them to a better place or anything like that. What he did was pure savagery, he deserves to rot.

demfad

Panrich wrote: »

Exactly. The ego required to carry out this despicable act would have to be very significant.

This is what they mean when studies into family annihilation state that some killers experience forms of depression to do with resistance from the targets of the control and worry about maintaining the control.
Hawe's worry here is clearly associated with some 'sexual' matter about to be revealed which will both destroy his sense of masculinity as a pillar of the community and as a family man. It will also cause him to lose control over that which he is controlling.
His worry is all about himself as you pointed out.
Rather than a sick man progressing to a psychotic episode Hawe was something else.
His worldview was all concerned with his view of masculinity. The main lay person in the parish, the treasurer of the GAA club, the vice principle and the firm head of his household. When this was threatened his brooding resurfaced and when it was certain to be destroyed he decided to destroy all that he owned.
Clodagh was going to leave him. Who was he to decide if she would be better off dead than without him and with his 'secret'? His view of masculinity and family ownership meant he believed he was judge and jury over whether his family lived or died.

iamwhoiam

BinLiner2 wrote: »

Didn't think much of the parents statement tbh

Also noted they didn't bother to attend the inquest

They were not to blame for their sons actions . And any parent will try to protect themselves from the pain of knowing their son was an evil cruel man by trying to find a reason . Maybe they were not at the inquest so the Colls didnt have to face them or for many other good reasons . In no way should any fault be lain at his familys feet in my opinion .

seamus

BinLiner2 wrote: »

Didn't think much of the parents statement tbh

Also noted they didn't bother to attend the inquest

I think that's unfair.

There's no statement they can make to change anything or make anything better. They're not to blame for what happened.

Attending the inquest could be seen as insensitive. Yes, they could show support for Clodagh's family, but you don't know what's been going on since, contact may have been rejected, or they may have been asked to stay away and did so out of respect.

They sent their solicitor in their place which indicates to me that it's not a case of "not bothered" to show up, but they reasoned that it would not be appropriate for them to appear in person.

The language of their statement is very telling. It mourns their "beloved" grandchildren and daughter-in-law first, and then just refers to "our son" without emotion or adjective.

Carefully drafted it may be, but it says to me that they understand who the victims are in this case and aren't looking for pity for their son.

dense

bobsman wrote: »

I struggle with the premeditated aspect of the murders. He meticulously cut the windpipes of his victims so they couldn't cry out. He sorted his financial and other various matters, which is not an easy task. It requires planning and time.

He was obviously having some mental issues but I cannot fathom how a GP who knew him for years did not have some inkling.

I agree with you on the nature of the murders it is barbaric.

Were the journalists over egging the rest:
What matters financial and otherwise did he actually sort out?

Did he pay off loans or something?

Was there anything to do with wills? Doubtful.

bobsman

A lot struggle with the term "evil". It is human nature to try to look at other areas, mental illness, etc. I remember when the Rosemary / Fred West case broke. There was worldwide horror but in the end, the conclusion was that they were two evil psychopaths.

The "easier" more palatable opinion is that Hawe had a complete psychotic breakdown. It isn't the opinion of Mary Coll and her surviving daughter. Mary at the inquest asked Dr. Kennedy had he ever actually met Alan. He is basing his opinion on GP notes, Counsellor notes and any notes that Hawe left behind.

It just isn't an "educated/comfortable" opinion to conclude that Hawe was an evil C**t