Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If you're sick of seeing mental illness used as a mitigating factors, could you show what you mean? Has anyone in this thread mitigated Hawe's murdering using mental illness?

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Do you see mental illness as a mitigating factors in and of itself? Would Hawe being diagnosed with mental illness mitigate your ability to be outraged at him? Im asking because I haven't seen anyone suggest mental illness would be a mitigating factor but you seem to want to discard mental illness in Hawe for fear of it mitigating his behaviour. I think you're the only one suggesting mental illness should be a mitigating factor

For example:

Deleted User wrote: »

Mental illness is just awful. Not excusing him, but he wasn’t in his right mind. May they all Rest In Peace. Thoughts and prayers with both families.

May he not rest in peace, the guy is a murderous scumbag and should have absolutely no "respects" paid to him. Good riddance, and that is all.

Nobody would be offering any sympathy towards him if mental illness hadn't been brought up. If he murdered them because he was having an affair that was about to be exposed, for instance, or because he discovered that she was having an affair, we wouldn't be seeing posts like these - and we still shouldn't. A diagnosis of depression is entirely unrelated to the choice to murder your entire family.

Again, this isn't about his own suicide. His choice to take others with him mitigates any "redeeming factors" in this case, which is why personally I'm sick of this being described as "tragic" for him. It's tragic for his family, for his victims, and for their families, but he himself is nothing but a murdering scumbag and he should not be afforded the slightest ounce of sympathy or respect in death. Nobody says "RIP" to a terrorist who dies blowing himself up in order to kill others. Nobody says "RIP" to a burglar who shoots up a shop and gets shot himself in the process. Nobody says "RIP" to a mass murderer who dies in a shootout with the cops. Just because Hawe had mental issues and took his own life, doesn't change the fact that he's a cold blooded murderer who ended three innocent lives and devastated dozens more through that act.

Just my opinion obviously. But you won't see any "RIPs" from me with regard to somebody who murdered their innocent family in cold blood. "So long and good riddance, you murdering piece of trash" seems far more appropriate.

lawred2

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Mental illness is just awful. Not excusing him, but he wasn’t in his right mind. May they all Rest In Peace. Thoughts and prayers with both families.

Well you are excusing him really.

You have no idea what his state of mind was. You know nothing of him and are not qualified to make such a statement.

The only state of mind that can be deduced evidentially was that of a man set on cold blooded calculated murder. That is what the evidence points to.

Had he walked out of the house, and off down the street he'd be a monster. Nobody would care for his state of mind. Yet kill yourself once you're done with all the murdering and all of a sudden it's a poor man with a mental ilness.

Rotten bastard.

Nekarsulm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I have no experience with coroners court juries so I can't comment on you assertions, aside from to say that it is a deeply troubling account and seems extremely negative.

Easily rectified.
Ask your local Court Clerk when the next coroner's court is being held, and turn up to watch.

Tell us your impressions afterwards.

lawred2

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

For example:

May he not rest in peace, the guy is a murderous scumbag and should have absolutely no "respects" paid to him. Good riddance, and that is all.

Nobody would be offering any sympathy towards him if mental illness hadn't been brought up. If he murdered them because he was having an affair that was about to be exposed, for instance, or because he discovered that she was having an affair, we wouldn't be seeing posts like these - and we still shouldn't. A diagnosis of depression is entirely unrelated to the choice to murder your entire family.

Again, this isn't about his own suicide. His choice to take others with him mitigates any "redeeming factors" in this case, which is why personally I'm sick of this being described as "tragic" for him. It's tragic for his family, for his victims, and for their families, but he himself is nothing but a murdering scumbag and he should not be afforded the slightest ounce of sympathy or respect in death. Nobody says "RIP" to a terrorist who dies blowing himself up in order to kill others. Nobody says "RIP" to a burglar who shoots up a shop and gets shot himself in the process. Nobody says "RIP" to a mass murderer who dies in a shootout with the cops. Just because Hawe had mental issues and took his own life, doesn't change the fact that he's a cold blooded murderer who ended three innocent lives and devastated dozens more through that act.

Just my opinion obviously. But you won't see any "RIPs" from me with regard to somebody who murdered their innocent family in cold blood. "So long and good riddance, you murdering piece of trash" seems far more appropriate.

I agree with everything you've said.. but the bastard took four innocent lives.

BinLiner2 wrote: »

He is an expert who was asked for his opinion based on the records

That opinion is then extrapolated as fact by the media and public

If we go to see an oncologist after he’s looked at the scans, we really have no choice but to accept his opinion.
If I go to a solicitor with my employment rights complaint, I don’t question his opinion.
Why is professor Kennedy any different.
I think the problem occurs when the professional opinion doesn’t tally with the amateur armchair diagnosis.

BinLiner2

splinter65 wrote: »

If we go to see an oncologist after he’s looked at the scans, we really have no choice but to accept his opinion.
If I go to a solicitor with my employment rights complaint, I don’t question his opinion.
Why is professor Kennedy any different.
I think the problem occurs when the professional opinion doesn’t tally with the amateur armchair diagnosis.

It's an opinion not a diagnosis,that was my point

Professor Kennedy didn't meet alan hawe

jackboy

splinter65 wrote: »

If we go to see an oncologist after he’s looked at the scans, we really have no choice but to accept his opinion.
If I go to a solicitor with my employment rights complaint, I don’t question his opinion.
Why is professor Kennedy any different.

Because compared to oncology, psychology is still in the middle ages.

McCrack

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I am so, so sick of seeing mental illness being used as some kind of mitigating factor in cases like these. Depression is a very serious illness and one which has affected me both directly and indirectly, but it does not jeopardise a person's ability to tell right from wrong. I have nothing but the deepest sympathy for victims of suicide - I have known people who have both attempted it and succeeded in doing it. But the minute somebody decides to take another unwilling soul with them, they go from being a sympathetic victim of suicide to a selfish, cowardly piece of sh!t as far as I'm concerned. Whatever Alan Hawe's troubles, and I am not denying that they could easily have been horrific enough to lead him to the awful decision that his life wasn't worth living, his conscious decision to take his wife and children with him automatically and irrevocably erases any and all possibility of him being considered a remotely sympathetic character. In that moment, he chose to behave like an evil scumbag, mentally ill or not. There is no mitigating factor which can lessen that fact.

Theres a world of difference between depression and psychosis

tayto lover

splinter65 wrote: »

If we go to see an oncologist after he’s looked at the scans, we really have no choice but to accept his opinion.
If I go to a solicitor with my employment rights complaint, I don’t question his opinion.
Why is professor Kennedy any different.
I think the problem occurs when the professional opinion doesn’t tally with the amateur armchair diagnosis.

He never saw or spoke to Hawe.
He just made his diagnosis from other peoples notes and opinions but excluded the opinion of Hawe's doctor who had known Hawe for 5 years.

Asus X540L

It's little more than a generation since the mental health profession has been lobotimizing, electrocuting gays, and to this day prescribe serious psychotic meds like they're skittles.

Sorry, don't really care what people like professor Harry Kennedy has to say on the matter at all

McCrack

pjohnson wrote: »

People defending Hawe as being some poor sod with a hard mental ilness is disturbing. How many people with mental health issues manage NOT to massacre their own family. Such a cop out.

Yes the majority of persons with mental health issues are not psychotic

Psychosis is relatively rare and homicides arising from psychotic episodes are extraordinary rare

kerplun k

Dev84 wrote: »

Alan Hawe was pure evil. On a scale like no other. Was he sick? He had no diagnosis at the time so youd have to say no. Any shrink trying to diagnose him now , well the saying " stable door and horse has bolted" comes to mind.

Put whatever name on it you want it doesnt absolve or explain it in anyway.

Sometimes we need to accept
Evil exists.

I can’t accept that.
I was reading the inquest story today on RTE. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but there’s a picture of Clodagh and her three sons. They look like such a gorgeous family. I’m normally not an emotional person. I don’t even remember the last time I cried. I read that in work today and looked at that picture, and I had to go to the toilet because I was so upset, and I cried for the first time in a long while. After he murdered Clodagh, he murdered his three sons, they struggled, they knew what was happening, they fought back. If you read the details you’ll agree what happened to Clodagh and her sons was not human, it’s something that’s impossible for any rational human being to even understand. Evil is a human trait, and what Alan Hawe did was not human, if a human can rationally and consciously commit an act as heinous as this, then this is not a world that I want to live in. The psychiatrist said today that Alan Hawe progressed from a long standing depressive illness to a severe depressive episode with psychotic symptoms. For my own sanity this is something that I have to believe. I hate Alan Hawe, It’s not something I’ll ever be capable of fully understanding, but I cannot allow myself to believe any human in any rational state of mind can commit such an evil act. I have to believe in Professor Harry Kennedy diagnosis, because to put it simply, it’s better than the alternative.

jimmycrackcorm

JupiterKid wrote: »

The Hawe massacre, whilst utterly awful, wasn't the only murder suicide of a family on Ireland. Not by a long shot.

Anyone remember the murder suicides in Monageer and Clonroche in Wexford around 2007?

And in previous decades I suspect it was covered up by the authorities as something else.

I was reminded of the case of Mary Keegan from this. But this article also makes a point about how we don't face up to these cases and instead brush past them.

Some sneaky modding must have made my post yesterday disappeared; that my point about the Hawes suicide notes should be revealed. Not just to give someone else an opportunity to possibly recognize the danger that they and their family might be in, but also to give an opportunity for someone who might cause the same to possibly recognize the danger and seek help.

lukesmom

I've been pretty torn on this issue for the past year. At the beginning I figured poor man wasn't in his right mind. People had described him as being a 'pillar of the community' etc. But then I started reading about psychopaths and psychopathic tendencies. The impression they give out. When your deeply depressed and suicidal, the last thing you really want is to hurt your own family, the ones you love. In fact, it is usually the case where you feel they would be better off without YOU. Some people are born bad and I know a lot find that hard to deal with and to fathom. We studied this very subject in psychology a few months ago. The majority of students came to the conclusion that coupled with the genetic element, peoples brains are wired differently, depression or no mental illness. It really doesn't come into it when you are faced with a quadruple murder/suicide such as the one we are discussing. People can only hide their inherent nature and instincts for so long. They put on a fantastic display of normality and being the 'pillars of society'. But time always catches up one way or another and their compulsions spring into action. I hope his wife and children are in a better place but this person was a coward and a psychopath. Depression does not come into it.

hatrickpatrick wrote:

May he not rest in peace, the guy is a murderous scumbag and should have absolutely no "respects" paid to him. Good riddance, and that is all.

Even when the later explicitly says they're not excusing what he did, and they're not offering any excuse or reduced responsibility. The only thing that mental health can reduce is the rage people feel towards him once they know it

lawred2 wrote:

Well you are excusing him really.

Being interested in why he did it doesn't excuse him from doing it. I can't really understand why you even begin to equate the two.

lawred2 wrote:

Had he walked out of the house, and off down the street he'd be a monster. Nobody would care for his state of mind. Yet kill yourself once you're done with all the murdering and all of a sudden it's a poor man with a mental ilness.

Nobody has referred to him as a poor man. Have they?

BinLiner2 wrote: »

It's an opinion not a diagnosis,that was my point

Professor Kennedy didn't meet alan hawe

The consultant radiologist doesn’t meet you either when he looks at your scans.
He looks at the pictures and reports back.
Professor Kennedy looked at all the evidence including a letter of 3 foolscap pages written by Hawe which no member of the public has seen, and using his expertise and experience gave his professional opinion.
I would have no reason to doubt the consultant radiologist looking at my X-ray and likewise no reason to doubt Professor Kennedy.

Beechwoodspark

He comes across as such a calculating and evil man

[Deleted User]

Agreed. I'd just have to trust what Professor Kennedy said. He's the professional and knows what he is talking about. Most of us are just speculating.

tayto lover wrote:

He never saw or spoke to Hawe. He just made his diagnosis from other peoples notes and opinions but excluded the opinion of Hawe's doctor who had known Hawe for 5 years.

Did he exclude the doctors opinion? Or did conclude differently when considering all the evidence?

If Hawe never presented with depression then that's what the doctor has to say.

Asus X540L wrote:

Sorry, don't really care what people like professor Harry Kennedy has to say on the matter at all

Yeah fair enough. The not understanding much about the work that goes into psychological investigation might lead you to conclude that.

lukesmom wrote:

I've been pretty torn on this issue for the past year. At the beginning I figured poor man wasn't in his right mind. People had described him as being a 'pillar of the community' etc. But then I started reading about psychopaths and psychopathic tendencies. The impression they give out. When your deeply depressed and suicidal, the last thing you really want is to hurt your own family, the ones you love. In fact, it is usually the case where you feel they would be better off without YOU. Some people are born bad and I know a lot find that hard to deal with and to fathom. We studied this very subject in psychology a few months ago. The majority of students came to the conclusion that coupled with the genetic element, peoples brains are wired differently, depression or no mental illness. It really doesn't come into it when you are faced with a quadruple murder/suicide such as the one we are discussing. People can only hide their inherent nature and instincts for so long. They put on a fantastic display of normality and being the 'pillars of society'. But time always catches up one way or another and their compulsions spring into action. I hope his wife and children are in a better place but this person was a coward and a psychopath. Depression does not come into it.

Surely you'll know that psychopathy is associated with brain abnormalities. It's not fully understood by a long way but it does seem to be a physical defect which manifests in lack of of ability to empathise. E.g. the person suffers a frontal lobe injury and can't recognise fear or pain in others so they behave accordingly.

It doesn't excuse their behaviour but it goes towards explaining it.

tayto lover

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Did he exclude the doctors opinion? Or did conclude differently when considering all the evidence?

If Hawe never presented with depression then that's what the doctor has to say.

I don't know if he did or not. He certainly excluded the evidence of the Coll family who said that he never displayed any mental illness or psychotic traits to their knowledge. People who saw him nearly every day.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Even when the later explicitly says they're not excusing what he did, and they're not offering any excuse or reduced responsibility.

It was the "may they all rest in peace" comment that I was aiming at. May his victims rest in peace, absolutely. May he, on the other hand, find absolutely no rest whatsoever. F*ck him. He shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as his victims, and certainly not afforded any friendly or sympathetic sentiment.

The only thing that mental health can reduce is the rage people feel towards him once they know it

I don't feel that it should. Depression neither causes nor in any way mitigates acts of sheer unadulterated cruelty. It is in no way a relevant factor beyond possibly explaining his potential motivation.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

In this case it's merely being used to underscore the lack of sympathy people have with this guy. The word "evil" implies that a person's actions have absolutely no redeeming factors whatsoever, and the choice to murder his innocent wife and children qualifies. It doesn't matter if he was mentally ill, it doesn't matter if he was under stress, it doesn't matter if he was unhappy or even despairing of his living situation - choosing to take the life of another person in this manner is an unforgivable act from which no "mitigating circumstance" can take.

"Evil" in this context means "no, it's not because his life was hard, it's because he was a selfish scumbag who didn't give a f*ck about the people he was hurting and he deserves absolutely nothing but unequivocal, unconditional hatred for what he did".

Your just venting in this post. All of this is your opinion which you formed while carefully ignoring the bits of the inquest that you didn’t like.
You can’t disagree with Professor Kennedy because even if you are a Professor of Psychiatry yourself (are you?), you haven’t seen any of the evidence he has seen, so your not in a position to pass comment.
Using all the “murdering scum bag coward evil” terminology is pointless and achieves nothing.
A beautiful innocent woman and her beautiful children died horribly at the hands of a deranged man in the mist nightmarish circumstances.
2 families are destroyed and the suffering will be felt for generations to come.
In order for there to be something salvaged from the wreckage, we need to do 2 things.
We need to educate our children about looking after their own mental health, and spotting signs of bad mental health in others.

volchitsa

splinter65 wrote: »

Your just venting in this post. All of this is your opinion which you formed while carefully ignoring the bits of the inquest that you didn’t like.
You can’t disagree with Professor Kennedy because even if you are a Professor of Psychiatry yourself (are you?), you haven’t seen any of the evidence he has seen, so your not in a position to pass comment.
Using all the “murdering scum bag coward evil” terminology is pointless and achieves nothing.
A beautiful innocent woman and her beautiful children died horribly at the hands of a deranged man in the mist nightmarish circumstances.
2 families are destroyed and the suffering will be felt for generations to come.
In order for there to be something salvaged from the wreckage, we need to do 2 things.
We need to educate our children about looking after their own mental health, and spotting signs of bad mental health in others.

Except the problem appears to be that some people want to control their families to the extent of having power of life and death over them.

If we write that off as a form of mental illness, we're putting other people in danger because we're looking for the wrong signs.

And we're probably going to accuse a lot of perfectly innocent depressed people of showing signs of wanting to murder their families.

tayto lover

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Surely you'll know that psychopathy is associated with brain abnormalities. It's not fully understood by a long way but it does seem to be a physical defect which manifests in lack of of ability to empathise. E.g. the person suffers a frontal lobe injury and can't recognise fear or pain in others so they behave accordingly.

It doesn't excuse their behaviour but it goes towards explaining it.

A lot of people who commit suicide also display a wish to prevent their families suffering. Hawe committed the most brutal murders of the people he was supposed to love before killing himself. People have suggested that he killed them to prevent them suffering from the exposure he was about to face, some as yet unknown thing that had occurred and which he was afraid of facing up to. Maybe he had no mental illness at all but his big ego and being a "pillar of the community" was about to be rattled and he couldn't take that. Maybe he was just a bad and evil person who had a big secret.

Asus X540L

tayto lover wrote: »

A lot of people who commit suicide also display a wish to prevent their families suffering. Coll committed the most brutal murders of the people he was supposed to love before killing himself. People have suggested that he killed them to prevent them suffering from the exposure he was about to face, some as yet unknown thing that had occurred and which he was afraid of facing up to. Maybe he had no mental illness at all but his big ego and being a "pillar of the community" was about to be rattled and he couldn't take that. Maybe he was just a bad and evil person who had a big secret.

Jesus fix that

volchitsa wrote: »

Except the problem appears to be that some people want to control their families to the extent of having power of life and death over them.

If we write that off as a form of mental illness, we're putting other people in danger because we're looking for the wrong signs.

And we're probably going to accuse a lot of perfectly innocent depressed people of showing signs of wanting to murder their families.

Wanting to control your family to the point where you come to the conclusion that the only solution to your problem is to butcher them and hang yourself, is probably indicative of a serious mental health issue.
His employers apparently had a major issue with him. (I’m trying to read between the lines here, like everyone else).
He was a national school principal.
In future, if employees in terribly responsible stressful positions like his are being investigated over serious allegations, maybe a red flag should be raised of some kind regarding possible breakdown ?

splinter65 wrote: »

Your just venting in this post. All of this is your opinion which you formed while carefully ignoring the bits of the inquest that you didn’t like.
You can’t disagree with Professor Kennedy because even if you are a Professor of Psychiatry yourself (are you?), you haven’t seen any of the evidence he has seen, so your not in a position to pass comment.

I'm not disagreeing with him, at all. I am merely pointing out that all his work does is indicate why Hawe might have done what he did. It doesn't change the fact that it was an inexcusable and monstrous thing to do, and that he should be paid no respects and offered no sympathies because of this. I'm taking issue with anyone including him in their sympathies towards this tragedy - he doesn't deserve any.

Using all the “murdering scum bag coward evil” terminology is pointless and achieves nothing.
A beautiful innocent woman and her beautiful children died horribly at the hands of a deranged man in the mist nightmarish circumstances.
2 families are destroyed and the suffering will be felt for generations to come.

Correct. And offering sympathetic sentiments towards Hawe is, in my view, essentially spitting on their graves. He should be condemned, unequivocally.

If Clodagh had been your close relative or friend, how would you feel seeing people making comments such as "May they all Rest In Peace"? The villain in a crime should not be included with their victims in the expression of sympathies. It's as ridiculous as saying "may they all rest in peace" in relation to the victims of United 93 on 9/11 - as well as the people who hijacked the plane. Eh, no. RIP to the victims, but the hijackers were worthless scum who do not deserve a shred of empathy or respect.

In order for there to be something salvaged from the wreckage, we need to do 2 things.
We need to educate our children about looking after their own mental health, and spotting signs of bad mental health in others.

We could also educate them about packing up and walking away without so much as a glance backwards when they encounter violent or toxic individuals in their lives. How many people do you know who stay in or return to relationships with people who behave in the controlling manner in which Hawe has been described as behaving? Sadly, and without reference to age, maturity or gender, I'd need the limbs of an octopus to even attempt to count the number of people I know who are far too forgiving in situations like these. And it's often driven by a sense of empathy or sympathy with the gobsh!te in question ("She's messed up enough, it would break her heart if I left" / "He can change, and he needs me or he'll fall apart" etc). So part of it surely must be to teach people that there are some people in this world who are just plain bad people, and that they aren't worth giving the time of day? That people have a right to expect a certain standard of treatment from their friends, family and love interests, and that they shouldn't tolerate anything less?

I just don't see the point in making excuses for people like this. Some people are just horrible excuses for human beings, end of story, the end. And I don't see the value in trying to dress that up or look for other explanations for it. You see this in all walks of Irish life, TBH - the kids who stuffed a firework into that homeless woman's hoodie this past October were described as "troubled" in a few comments I saw about it. How about just describing them as depraved, vile assholes? Do we have to inject an note of "their sh!ttiness isn't entirely their own fault" into every such situation? Sometimes it is someone's own fault, and when it is, screw them.