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Child Item

Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

Nekarsulm

News this morning....

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/05/10/4139761-body-of-alan-hawe-being-exhumed-this-morning/

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bobsman

I have a diagnosed mental illness. Thankfully, it is well managed.

In my experience, it is the psychotherapist one is more open with and it is the psychotherapist who can delve through the layers.

Time with the GP is always limited. It is then the psychiatrist, based on GP and psychotherapist notes who makes the diagnosis and prescribes and manages medication (if required).

Hawe had 10 seasons with a psychotherapist, which is a considerable length of time.

There is no mention of Hawe being on medication. I know sometimes, adjusting doses, etc, can be an extremely vulnerable time if not managed properly.

perhaps there was something telling in those notes. All we can hope for is Clodagh's family will get some peace.

kunst nugget

demfad wrote: »

To whom are you referring here?

My wife's aunt who was stopping her husband from tellling his family about his daughter's illness.

El_Duderino 09

Lollipop95 wrote:

No, that's not what I meant. Poorly worded, but as another poster said, it does suggest something he meticulously planned. That combined with the hand written note (he obviously had the peace of mind to write one) suggests it may not have been a psychotic episode

Neither of those things follow. Meticulous planning or peace of mind are not needed to murder or write a note. Wouldn't the forensic expert have considered that?

[Deleted User]

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's not true at all. We have no way to investigate evil (I don't think the term has any real use except to describe feelings about the incident). We can investigate mental illness, so while saying it's just evil leaves no path for understanding, acknowledgement that it's mental illness at play means we can actually find out more about it and hopefully prevent future harm

You seem to be quite invested in mental health expertise providing some insight here, or closure, or....I dunno

I'm suggesting that a mental health professional diagnosing a specific condition here doesn't actually do that. Just frames the event in a way that you get something from.

Others will use morality.

Nothing gained from it imo

Best of luck whatever way, I think I'm done responding to you itt

demfad

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The fact that he knew him personally is a double edged sword. Personally knowing your GP can lead to overlooking symptoms as it is seen as just part of their personality.

I actually know someone who had undiagnosed bipolar disorder. The GP was a close family friend and overlooked symptoms of manic episodes for years. They knew them in a personal capacity they saw the mania as part of their personality.

Family who knew him say he butchered methodically in cold blood because of a marriage breakup. They also previously state he had been abusing her for years. (vast majority of domestic violence murders happen at point of breakup).
State Pathologist testified that 'not a coincidence' boys were cut below Adams apple. This cuts windpipe to stop them using their voice ergo PLANNED ATTACK not frenzied (psychotic).
The Counsellor said no evidence that he was overtly troubled or would in any way harm someone. Hawe revealed that he had been attending marriage counselling, which backs the families claim that marriage was in trouble.

Strange that in an inquest that purports not to look for motive that a motive was de facto sought by the coroner.

Why wasn't an actual expert on family annihilation brought in to testify?
He/she could have testified that in the big UK and US studies domestic violence is the significant factor in upward of 80% of cases, mental illness dominates in just 5%.
There was evidence of domestic violence at least from the families own testimony. If Hawe survives, all this would be brought to his trial and I don't think a lone testimony would save him from prison.

So now we have an inquest that looks at motive when it shouldnt and leads the conclusion by examining from only one angle.

tayto lover

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Neither of those things follow. Meticulous planning or peace of mind are not needed to murder or write a note. Wouldn't the forensic expert have considered that?

Maybe not but they would seem to suggest that he had a huge and murderous ego. He spared everyone pain except his family. I wonder why?

kunst nugget

Lollipop95 wrote: »

But if it was simply a case of this guy being pure evil, what do you do in that case? Not everybody who is evil suffers from a mental illness.

What is evil though? Simply calling him evil doesn't bring us any closer to understanding what happened.

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote:

You seem to be quite invested in mental health expertise providing some insight here, or closure, or....I dunno

It's insight. Like I've said loads of times so there's no need to speculate. Investigation of the specific mental illness

Deleted User wrote:

I'm suggesting that a mental health professional diagnosing a specific condition here doesn't actually do that. Just frames the event in a way that you get something from.

Well it identified a psychotic break which is more specific than 'evil'. It opens the door for investigation and understanding.

Deleted User wrote:

Others will use morality.

You might use morality but the inquest is using forensic psychology. We'll wait and see if they get a moral philosopher's testimony but I'm pretty sure they won't.

The idea that psychology and morality are equally useful in this case shows a lack of willingness to understand it even if understanding could help prevent future harm.

El_Duderino 09

demfad wrote:

Family who knew him say he butchered methodically in cold blood because of a marriage breakup. They also previously state he had been abusing her for years. (vast majority of domestic violence murders happen at point of breakup). State Pathologist testified that 'not a coincidence' boys were cut below Adams apple. This cuts windpipe to stop them using their voice ergo PLANNED ATTACK not frenzied (psychotic). The Counsellor said no evidence that he was overtly troubled or would in any way harm someone. Hawe revealed that he had been attending marriage counselling, which backs the families claim that marriage was in trouble.

"PLANNED ATTACK not frenzied (psychotic)"

Psychotic is not an exact synonym for frenzied. It could be both psychotic and involve planning or insight in the moment.

Where does this idea that at elements of planning or insight rule out psychosis come from? It it from watching CSI or something?

The fact that he presented no sign of overt intention to harm suggests that either he was hiding it or it came from the blue.

In any case. The implication is that someone of sound mental health would murder their family and themself. Is that what you're saying?

kunst nugget

demfad wrote: »

Family who knew him say he butchered methodically in cold blood because of a marriage breakup. They also previously state he had been abusing her for years.

The mother-in-law says they had no clue.

“If Clodagh had known her kids were in danger she would have been gone. It was hidden, there was no physical abuse, we’d no inkling.
“He was like a son to me. If you asked him to do something he would.”

https://www.thesun.ie/news/981205/mum-of-tragic-clodagh-hawe-reveals-evil-husband-visited-her-home-the-night-before-killings-as-he-is-exhumed-from-family-grave/

El_Duderino 09

Lollipop95 wrote:

But if it was simply a case of this guy being pure evil, what do you do in that case? Not everybody who is evil suffers from a mental illness.

This breaks down before it ever gets off the ground. There is no commonly understood definition of evil. It's just a word used to add vagueness to the situation instead of explaining anything. There's no way to investigate evil without using biological, neurological or psychological investigation and we already have words for those things.

Just to illustrate the point, what is a good definition of evil?

Zubeneschamali

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The implication is that someone of sound mental health would murder their family and themself. Is that what you're saying?

Yes, that is what people have saying in these threads for a very long time. That is what the often-cited research into family annihilation says. people who commit murder are not necessarily mentally ill.

El_Duderino 09

Zubeneschamali wrote:

Yes, that is what people have saying in these threads for a very long time. That is what the often-cited research into family annihilation says. people who commit murder are not necessarily mentally ill.

And in this case where the expert has concluded a psychotic episode, what do you think?

[Deleted User]

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You might use morality but the inquest is using forensic psychology.

I don't, as a matter of fact.

This is why I'm stopping responding to you itt. You are arguing with one homogeneous strawman of your own hobbyhorse construction here rather than debating in any way with the individual posters.

demfad

This is from the definitive British study on family annihilation.

As you can see mental illness is only the PRINCIPLE MOTIVE for family annihilation in 5% of cases.
The study also reveals in almost all cases the importance of 'masculinity' to the killer. The killer often has a traditional family world view. We know this was very true of Hawe. We know his family witnessed domestic abuse which is present in most cases.
In over 60% of these annihilations a family breakup is the trigger.
The counsellor testified that the killer was attending marriage counselling.
If the coroner was after motive why not pursue twh most common motives especially when evidence pointed that way?
Why instead ask an expert in suicide to come to a 'more likely than not' conclusion which could only distort if no other strands were examined?
He cant say definitively even if its a motive. We certainly could not conclude it as the principle motive. Yet this is the false impression left from that inquest.

Our research suggests that family annihilators should be seen as a distinctcategory of murderer, of which there are specific subcategories. What
seems to link each of the subcategories that we have identified is masculinity
and the need to exert power and control in situations when the
annihilator feels that his masculinity has, in some way, been threatened.
For these men, the family role of the father was fundamental to their
masculine identities and, prior to the murders, the family had, to some
extent, ceased to perform its masculinity-affirming functions for them.
Murder, or more bluntly, family annihilation, thus emerges in this sense as
a resource to perform masculinity, when other resources have failed, are
seen as being inadequate, or do not deliver the desired outcomes. In this
way the annihilation makes public what had often been a private reality –
a reality masked to family, friends and neighbours who often thought that
this man had been a ‘doting’ and ‘loving’ father and ‘dutiful’ husband.

The above describes Alan Hawe's atrocity: The making public of what had been a private reality and hell for his family.

Odelay

I wonder was he planning this for months in advance and the physiologist visits were only to make it look like he had depression??

Zubeneschamali

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And in this case where the expert has concluded a psychotic episode, what do you think?

I think he is doing what you have been doing all along - saying after the event that no-one does this without being psychotic.

tayto lover

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This breaks down before it ever gets off the ground. There is no commonly understood definition of evil. It's just a word used to add vagueness to the situation instead of explaining anything. There's no way to investigate evil without using biological, neurological or psychological investigation and we already have words for those things.

Just to illustrate the point, what is a good definition of evil?

Someone who would insist that his own family suffered more than his friends?

demfad

kunst nugget wrote: »

The mother-in-law says they had no clue.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/981205/mum-of-tragic-clodagh-hawe-reveals-evil-husband-visited-her-home-the-night-before-killings-as-he-is-exhumed-from-family-grave/

He had been controlling and manipulating her for years. As with all murders and mass murders it is debatable if the killer is ever 'sane' by normal standards during the act. He is sane during those years of abuse and he is sane when he plans the final terminal act in that abuse.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/remember-clodagh-not-him-relative-8776750

The relative added: “Mental illness is reaching epidemic proportions in Ireland and certainly more needs to be done to help those suffering from mental health difficulties no matter what they are.

“However, while I concede that when Alan Hawe took up the implements he used to murder his family, he may not have been thinking logically, he was certainly not sane by normal standards.

“But to eulogise him as some kind of saint who didn’t know what he was doing is grossly unfair to those who suffer day-in-day-out from mental illness yet somehow manage never to kill anyone.

"Alan Hawe was a controlling, manipulative man, who appeared to those who knew him to be the perfect teacher, neighbour, husband and father.

“To keep up that illusion over many years took skills not normally associated with those who have mental illness.

"Let’s not tarnish the mentally ill by associating them with such evil.

“Remember Clodagh — a mother, a daughter, a sister, a niece, cousin, teacher, friend, a wonderful woman who came face-to-face with evil and did not live to tell the tell."

El_Duderino 09

Deleted User wrote:

I don't, as a matter of fact.

Neither do I so why did you bring it up? The salient point is that the inquest doesn't use it either and they do use forensic psychology.

Deleted User wrote:

This is why I'm stopping responding to you itt. You are arguing with one homogeneous strawman of your own hobbyhorse construction here rather than debating in any way with the individual posters.

Stop responding for whatever reason you like. FWIW I responded to you, another poster responded to me and I responded to them and you thought I was putting words in your mouth. It's difficult to have conversations with multiple posters at once. No offense intended.

kunst nugget

demfad wrote: »

He had been controlling and manipulating her for years. As with all murders and mass murders it is debatable if the killer is ever 'sane' by normal standards during the act. He is sane during those years of abuse and he is sane when he plans the final terminal act in that abuse.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/remember-clodagh-not-him-relative-8776750

An anonymous 'relative' vs an actual quote from the mother? They also don't say that they spotted any abuse at the time.

demfad

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And in this case where the expert has concluded a psychotic episode, what do you think?

The expert who has been asked to make a conclusion has concluded more likely than not.

Asking only an expert from the suicide/mental health side will preempt such a half-conclusion. If a motive was sought then where were the experts on family annihilation? On domestic violence?

Again, even though that is the impression from this inquest, no motive was established.

El_Duderino 09

demfad wrote:

This is from the definitive British study on family annihilation.

That's actually really interesting. The primary cause doesn't preclude other factors nor the primary factor causing a psychotic break.

Buer

What is apparent is that people have made up their minds on the case regardless of the findings of the inquest and opinions of experienced experts which appears to have therefore been a waste of time.

El_Duderino 09

tayto lover wrote:

Someone who would insist that his own family suffered more than his friends?

I don't actually understand what you mean but this is exactly the kind of thing younger when you ask for a definition of evil. Vague and 'tou know it when you see it yourself, like'.
Let me ask the question another way. Is there any advantage to sing the word 'evils that isn't covered by he other disciplines I mentioned above?

kunst nugget

demfad wrote: »

The expert who has been asked to make a conclusion has concluded more likely than not.

Asking only an expert from the suicide/mental health side will preempt such a half-conclusion. If a motive was sought then where were the experts on family annihilation? On domestic violence?

Again, even though that is the impression from this inquest, no motive was established.

Totally agree with this. The inquest shouldn't be considered as the last word on the murders.

El_Duderino 09

Zubeneschamali wrote:

I think he is doing what you have been doing all along - saying after the event that no-one does this without being psychotic.

Is that what he's doing? He has all the evidence and expertise and he's ignoring all that and coming to the same conclusion as me with the evidence I have? Hats very unlikely.

But FWIW I would say that anyone who sees murdering their family and themselves as a good solution to a problem is almost certainly experiencing a mental break. If that was part of their normal behaviour (similarly wildly harmful behaviour) it would have come to attention by now.

demfad

kunst nugget wrote: »

An anonymous 'relative' vs an actual quote from the mother? They also don't say that they spotted any abuse at the time.

Clodagh's Mother said only that there was no physical abuse. She is revealing that Hawe had her fooled with everyone else. After the relative came out (was anonymous for a good reason) the Mother and sister clearly understood.

They changed from the priests prompting of 'good man who snapped' to the actuality of a master manipulator as the sister described him. Violence is only one tool in domestic violence to achieve the end of control.

An effective jailer does not have to use violence to keep a person jailed. Only when the person is about to break through the jail door are the extreme measures used. That's why most domestic violence murders and family annihilations occur just before family breakups or fall from graces. Alan Hawe was a text book example.

El_Duderino 09

Buer wrote:

What is apparent is that people have made up their minds on the case regardless of the findings of the inquest and opinions of experienced experts which appears to have therefore been a waste of time.

Posters MIT have made up their minds and are willing to dismiss expert testimony that disagrees with their prejudice. But the posters here aren't the ones involved in designing mental health services day in, day out.

If the findings go towards greater understanding of his type of incident which helps prevent future harm, then some good can come of it.

Charmeleon

Is that ‘definitive’ British study not the same one posted months ago that turned out to be a group discussion on newspaper clippings?