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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - MOD NOTE POST #4781

Steve

Continuing on from the previous thread....

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Neil3030

ronnoco13 wrote: »

12 aki , 13 ringrose , 15 henshaw. Henshaw hasn't played at 15 in years but he said it during an interview after he cam back from lions tour. It has a lot of potential if it works out would definitely be worth trying out for a few games

Am I imagining this or did Henshaw once say in an interview that fullback was his favourite position to play?

irishfan9

Neil3030 wrote: »

Pretty much everything; kicking may be Henshaws only edge on him.

henshaw can't tackle? can't pass? can't offload?

weird... how is he a professional rugby player?

Neil3030

irishfan9 wrote: »

henshaw can't tackle? can't pass? can't offload?

weird... how is he a professional rugby player?

You phrased your question incorrectly. It's not a case of who can do x, and who can't. It's a case of who does it better. And across the range of skills needed for an inside centre, Bundee wins for me.

torqtorq

Neil3030 wrote: »

I just can't see how anyone gets in at 12 ahead of Bundee. He can distribute as well as any, bosh it as well as any, and then there's his offloading game which I'm sure we'll build some moves around. He also fit seemlessly into defensive duties last week. Everyone else is fighting for the 13 shirt, imo.

Its beyond me why anyone would think that Aki has no equal as a 12.

The Ulster midfield has had Aki's number for the past 3 seasons.

In their most recent game Aki made all of 21 metres from 16 carries for an average of 1.3 m per carry.

McCloskey made 46 metres from 10 carries for an average of 4.6 m per carry.

That is 3.5 times further per carry!

As for offloading, McCloskey wins this hands down. His limbs are so long that he can reach round the corner of the defender and pass backwards as witnessed by some of Ulster's early season tries.

He can also reach over the top of most defenders and offload that way, something that the much shorter Aki cannot do.

Aki's Bosh game is actually not that effective against a good defending side and is certainly inferior to McCloskeys.

connachta

ronnoco13 wrote: »

12 aki , 13 ringrose , 15 henshaw. Henshaw hasn't played at 15 in years but he said it during an interview after he cam back from lions tour. It has a lot of potential if it works out would definitely be worth trying out for a few games

Agreeeeee!

[Deleted User]

Regardless of who plays centre, probably the most important thing is that there are enough guys now seriously pushing for jerseys that none of those involved can allow their game to drop at all. Competition is a very good motivator.

D14Rugby

irishfan9 wrote: »

henshaw can't tackle? can't pass? can't offload?

weird... how is he a professional rugby player?

While i think henshaw is a better 12 for Ireland i believe he was saying things henshaw does better than aki not implying he can't do other things well

[Deleted User]

D14Rugby wrote: »

While i think henshaw is a better 12 for Ireland i believe he was saying things henshaw does better than aki not implying he can't do other things well

Aki does everything better than Henshaw, Henshaw couldn't even get his own laptop back.

Former Former

Aki may well become the first centre to be picked, but he's not there yet. He's had one game against an incredibly weak SA team; he played well, serious work rate and tackled everything that moved. But there wasn't much in the way of attack, I don't really remember any big carries, line breaks or offloads. It was exactly the sort of performance that Henshaw has been putting in at 12 for the last three years...

It's going to be fascinating, especially if Payne comes back into the mix, you could pick any two from four and say "that's a great midfield", but no one is nailed on yet IMO.

Bridge93

Aki has work to do to push one of the other two out for the 6N (I’m leaving Payne out of this as there’s no word of him). As venjur said it’s great to have quality depth where everyone is kept on their toes

pickarooney

Webbs wrote: »

It will be interesting come the world cup how Ireland set up as a lot of countries are now looking at a 10 -12 playmaker, something that Schmidt is not looking at with his selections to date. (the pairing for the Fiji game shows a clear marker being set down?)

It's all a ruse. Play the 6N with beefy giants (Peter Robb to get a call up soon?) and spring Carbery at 12 for the world cup.

[Deleted User]

pickarooney wrote: »

It's all a ruse. Play the 6N with beefy giants (Peter Robb to get a call up soon?) and spring Carbery at 12 for the world cup.

James Downey with a surprise recall...

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

James Downey with a surprise recall...

pickarooney

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We could let things get a bit silly and have a backline of Stockdale, McCloskey, Aki, Byrne and Henshaw.

Would be by a long way our largest ever backline with a lot of hard carriers yet still plenty of guile. It's a real shame if Adam Byrne can't develop his game because his size and ability to beat the first man would be so valuable on the international stage.

With a backline like that and with the pack coming along as they are we could really bully teams.

Ugh. We have players like Ringrose and Carbery and you want to play Gattyball?

[Deleted User]

pickarooney wrote: »

Ugh. We have players like Ringrose and Carbery and you want to play Gattyball?

Maybe just once... Choo choo get out the way!

Sephiral

Payne, if he manages to recover is probably a full back option now. He was a very good stop gap while we waited for options to develop. Personally, I think his ability as a second playmaker is such a boon that he will displace Kearney instantly.

Aki will probably end up being our best centre option if he can stand up in high pressure games. He has the most rounded skill set and sets players outside him free better than anyone else.

I think a backline of Stockdale-Aki-Henshaw/Ringrose-Earls-Payne is the best we have had in years and there are quality replacement options available too.

Bazzo

torqtorq wrote: »

Its beyond me why anyone would think that Aki has no equal as a 12.

The Ulster midfield has had Aki's number for the past 3 seasons.

In their most recent game Aki made all of 21 metres from 16 carries for an average of 1.3 m per carry.

McCloskey made 46 metres from 10 carries for an average of 4.6 m per carry.

That is 3.5 times further per carry!

As for offloading, McCloskey wins this hands down. His limbs are so long that he can reach round the corner of the defender and pass backwards as witnessed by some of Ulster's early season tries.

He can also reach over the top of most defenders and offload that way, something that the much shorter Aki cannot do.

Aki's Bosh game is actually not that effective against a good defending side and is certainly inferior to McCloskeys.

You've said this before and then blatantly ignored my response when I actually went back through the stats indicating that Bundee has been the most prominent attacking centre on the pitch in several of those encounters. Defensively he's already shown us what he's made of against South Africa, more tackles than anyone else on the pitch I believe and several of them very dominant.

Utopia Parkway

Aki is far more than a bosher as can be seen in the recent Munster game when he gave a lovely instantaneous pop pass that put Butler in the clear for TOH to score out wide. He loves the physical stuff but he can definitely play a bit.

He's not a playmaking 12 though but then again neither is Henshaw or McCloskey.

Besides given the rate of attrition and injuries I'd say it's unlikely that we will have them all fit at the same time so you can't beat options. They will all get gametime to some extent.

Burkie1203

connachta wrote: »

so, again you ignored my points.
Every time I point out the fact players are not talented enough IMO, you think I only have a Connacht agenda
Kearneys C.Farrell and Herring are, for most here, unexpected selections. It's not only about TOH, McCartney
It is (or will be) about J.J, Cronin, Stockdale/Payne/Henshaw as 15 and so on
Yes I disagree about those three, but I agree with 32 others who are not Connacht. Stop caricaturing

C Farrell has almost 100 appearances in the top14, pro12/14, challenge cup and european cup. He is 24 years old. You say he has no talent or is not talented enough on the basis of 4 games you have seen him in for Grenoble. I would bet Joe has seen him a lot more often then you have.

Kearney x2, Farrell were certainly not a shock selection. Herring wasnt expected by me anyway but his form has been good. He is 27. So thats a good choice.

JJH has done nothing to suggest he is being hard done by this time around. We dont know what the issue with Cronin is exactly but that doesnt mean its wrong. Joe could just be looking at Herring and Tracy. You know, to build depth.

Payne is out indefinitely.

Stockdale is going to get gametime at 11. Henshaw could end up at 15 this weekend off the bench. This is all clear signs of developing depth across the squad. But you take issue with some selections because Joe hasnt picked guys you want in the squad.

He has called up a total of 40 players. Some guys wont be in top form, and some will be there based on credit in the bank. Others like Adam Byrne might not get gametime but time in camp will serve then well hopefully.

prawnsambo

Bazzo wrote: »

You've said this before and then blatantly ignored my response when I actually went back through the stats indicating that Bundee has been the most prominent attacking centre on the pitch in several of those encounters. Defensively he's already shown us what he's made of against South Africa, more tackles than anyone else on the pitch I believe and several of them very dominant.

[Deleted User]

irishfan9 wrote: »

Joe loves big centres

There's basically no evidence to back this up is there? Henshaw has been the biggest regular selection at centre under Schmidt and he's not even that big by international standards these days.

Bazzo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Actually that was Stander. Our top tacklers were:

Player|Tackles|Missed
CJ Stander|16|0
Bundee Aki|15|3
Sean O'Brien|11|0
Tadhg Furlong|10|0
Devin Toner|10|1
Jonny Sexton|10|4

I think I've said it before, but the missed tackle count should be looked at in the knowledge that in a hard press defence, this often happens. Generally those misses are still mopped up beyond the gain line.

Those are the ESPN stats I think, right? I'm fairly sure they're a little off(as they nearly always are and I think are required to be by Opta). Most papers/reports mentioned Aki had 17 completed tackles. Either way it's a negligible difference.

torqtorq

Bazzo wrote: »

You've said this before and then blatantly ignored my response when I actually went back through the stats indicating that Bundee has been the most prominent attacking centre on the pitch in several of those encounters. Defensively he's already shown us what he's made of against South Africa, more tackles than anyone else on the pitch I believe and several of them very dominant.

You have never provided stats for all the matchups.

However you did provide false stats for the last encounter.

These are the correct stats!

Both the stats and watching the matches indicate that the Ulster midfield has had no bother stifling Aki's game.

I am not even trying to argue that any given player is better than Aki.

All I am saying that this myth that Aki is the best offloading centre in the country is a falsehood. McCloskey is actually better and can do things that Aki can not do.

That S African midfield was barely pro14 standard.

ClanofLams

Bazzo wrote: »

You've said this before and then blatantly ignored my response when I actually went back through the stats indicating that Bundee has been the most prominent attacking centre on the pitch in several of those encounters. Defensively he's already shown us what he's made of against South Africa, more tackles than anyone else on the pitch I believe and several of them very dominant.

I have seen this bit about Aki apparently being outplayed the last few times v Ulster in a few places now.He has played them twice in two seasons - 30-25 in the Sportsground last year and the 16-8 defeat in Ravenhill this season. I don't agree he was outplayed but regardless, I think it's possible Schmidt might be basing his picks on a little more than these two games.

Fitness providing, Aki will be starting 12 for the foreseeable future, whether people like it or not.

Clegg

Interested Observer wrote: »

There's basically no evidence to back this up is there? Henshaw has been the biggest regular selection at centre under Schmidt and he's not even that big by international standards these days.

In his early Leinster days he gave Eamon Sheridan a few chances to play. Schmidt also wanted Harrison Brewer to move from the backrow to midfield. Neither player made the grade at Leinster unfortunately. Both big units though, Sheridan especially.

I don't think that's enough to say that he especially loves big centres but rather that he was following the way the game was going in that you needed a gainline winner with good hands and passing ability.

[Deleted User]

Clegg wrote: »

In his early Leinster days he gave Eamon Sheridan a few chances to play. Schmidt also wanted Harrison Brewer to move from the backrow to midfield. Neither player made the grade at Leinster unfortunately. Both big units though, Sheridan especially.

All well and good but bit of a reach to go from there to saying he loves big centres. BOD, D'Arcy, Payne, Ringrose, Marshall, Earls, none of these guys are big really (relatively). McCloskey for example hasn't been able to get a look in at all.

prawnsambo

ClanofLams wrote: »

Fitness providing, Aki will be starting 12 for the foreseeable future, whether people like it or not.

Can you say that with such certainty? With Ringrose sidelined through injury, it's probably true, but once he's fit and back playing again, it's possible he'd be back partnering Henshaw again.

Or Aki. But with just one cap, it's very hard to make such projections with that degree of certainty.

Bazzo

torqtorq wrote: »

You have never provided stats for all the matchups.

However you did provide false stats for the last encounter.

These are the correct stats!

Both the stats and watching the matches indicate that the Ulster midfield has had no bother stifling Aki's game.

I am not even trying to argue that any given player is better than Aki.

All I am saying that this myth that Aki is the best offloading centre in the country is a falsehood. McCloskey is actually better and can do things that Aki can not do.

That S African midfield was barely pro14 standard.

Which false stats did I provide?

irishfan9

Clegg wrote: »

In his early Leinster days he gave Eamon Sheridan a few chances to play. Schmidt also wanted Harrison Brewer to move from the backrow to midfield. Neither player made the grade at Leinster unfortunately. Both big units though, Sheridan especially.

and he moved jordan coghlan to 12.

Joe loves him some big centres who can get over the gainline.. he just never had them at leinster

Clegg

Interested Observer wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

In his early Leinster days he gave Eamon Sheridan a few chances to play. Schmidt also wanted Harrison Brewer to move from the backrow to midfield. Neither player made the grade at Leinster unfortunately. Both big units though, Sheridan especially.

All well and good but bit of a reach to go from there to saying he loves big centres. BOD, D'Arcy, Payne, Ringrose, Marshall, Earls, none of these guys are big really (relatively). McCloskey for example hasn't been able to get a look in at all.

I added a bit to my post!! With the way modern defences were becoming harder to breach a massive midfielder was almost a necessity. And if you don't have a player as gifted as Giteau a gain line winner is imperative. Schmidt was just following the way the game was going.