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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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Testosterscone

Swashbuckler wrote: »

But to put that into context I presume both Krusty and Gary have years upon years of running behind them to build to those times . For the likes of me and zulutango who may have some years of basic running behind us but only started structured training in the last year or so, are the odds against us?

Edit: great thread by the way

KC started runNing after 35 in the sport with goal (IIRC) of breaking 60 for 10k back in the day (can look back on his old posts)

If you want something bad enough look at how you can get there rather than looking for the reasons why you can't.

99% of runners in Ireland will never reach there full potential for various reasons but doesn't mean the potential isn't there I think we tend to sell ourselves short too often

RayCun

Swashbuckler wrote: »

But to put that into context I presume both Krusty and Gary have years upon years of running behind them to build to those times . For the likes of me and zulutango who may have some years of basic running behind us but only started structured training in the last year or so, are the odds against us?

Well, GOH was a very good juvenile athlete, then injured in a car crash, ran on again off again for a while, and started long distance running in his 30s.

Krusty... well, you can read it yourself! 9 years ago, he was (counts fingers) 36 and running 43 minutes for 10k

As Testostercone said above, there's chronological age and there's training age. If you've been training solidly for 20 years, well, you've probably passed your peak. If you've only been training a few years, there's a lot of improvement available. And that applies whether you are 20, 40, or 70.

bigslice

squinn2912 wrote: »

Loving reading all of these contributions. A lot of heat on recovery. I've always trained hard on Tuesdays and Thursdays but then I run my saturday long run slowly with a partner. I pick an odd week when I am feeling good and finish the last 3-4 miles closer to MP and I feel that's enough (to get time on feet).
I'm still struggling to work out what a good marathon training week should look like. I find I'm usually too sore on a Monday to run hard so I just do a recovery run. Wednesday is the same and usually a day off on Friday. I don't like the thought of facing 20 miles after having done intervals the day before and that's why I do them on a Thursday. It seems that on a seven day week that's the best way to get the most recovery into the legs. Sunday alternates between a day off and some light recovery running.

Could you push the long run to Sunday?

squinn2912

RayCun wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Loving reading all of these contributions. A lot of heat on recovery. I've always trained hard on Tuesdays and Thursdays but then I run my saturday long run slowly with a partner. I pick an odd week when I am feeling good and finish the last 3-4 miles closer to MP and I feel that's enough (to get time on feet).
I'm still struggling to work out what a good marathon training week should look like. I find I'm usually too sore on a Monday to run hard so I just do a recovery run. Wednesday is the same and usually a day off on Friday. I don't like the thought of facing 20 miles after having done intervals the day before and that's why I do them on a Thursday. It seems that on a seven day week that's the best way to get the most recovery into the legs. Sunday alternates between a day off and some light recovery running.

So your week is
Monday: recovery run
Tuesday: hard run, intervals?
Wednesday: recovery run
Thursday: intervals
Friday: day off
Saturday: long slow run, sometimes with a few miles at MP
Sunday: day off or recovery run

That's a lot of recovery days and days off. What do you mean by recovery, how does it compare to marathon pace? How slow is the Saturday run?

Here it is;
Monday: recovery run - 5-6 miles MP + 60 secs
Tuesday: hard run, intervals? - 6-10 miles tempo - MP - 25 secs
Wednesday: recovery run or steady run - 6-8 miles - MP + 30-45 secs
Thursday: intervals - 800s x 8-10 in 2:50 1 min rest or 1600s x 5 in 5:50 2 min rest
Friday: day off
Saturday: long slow run, sometimes with a few miles at MP about MP - 90 secs for majority
Sunday: day off or recovery run

RayCun

squinn2912 wrote: »

Here it is;
Monday: recovery run - 5-6 miles MP + 60 secs
Tuesday: hard run, intervals? - 6-10 miles tempo - MP - 25 secs
Wednesday: recovery run or steady run - 6-8 miles - MP + 30-45 secs
Thursday: intervals - 800s x 8-10 in 2:50 1 min rest or 1600s x 5 in 5:50 2 min rest
Friday: day off
Saturday: long slow run, sometimes with a few miles at MP about MP - 90 secs for majority
Sunday: day off or recovery run

That looks like a training plan for something shorter than the marathon. You don't have a high volume overall, and you aren't putting any work into the long run, except for those times when you do a few miles at MP. You are doing most of your work in the tempo and interval runs, and everything else is recovering from them.

squinn2912

RayCun wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Here it is;
Monday: recovery run - 5-6 miles MP + 60 secs
Tuesday: hard run, intervals? - 6-10 miles tempo - MP - 25 secs
Wednesday: recovery run or steady run - 6-8 miles - MP + 30-45 secs
Thursday: intervals - 800s x 8-10 in 2:50 1 min rest or 1600s x 5 in 5:50 2 min rest
Friday: day off
Saturday: long slow run, sometimes with a few miles at MP about MP - 90 secs for majority
Sunday: day off or recovery run

That looks like a training plan for something shorter than the marathon. You don't have a high volume overall, and you aren't putting any work into the long run, except for those times when you do a few miles at MP. You are doing most of your work in the tempo and interval runs, and everything else is recovering from them.

Well it builds to a 50+ mile week I know it's not in the higher volume end of things compared to some people but I'd have thought it enough for marathon training. What would you suggest I change?

squinn2912

bigslice wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

Loving reading all of these contributions. A lot of heat on recovery. I've always trained hard on Tuesdays and Thursdays but then I run my saturday long run slowly with a partner. I pick an odd week when I am feeling good and finish the last 3-4 miles closer to MP and I feel that's enough (to get time on feet).
I'm still struggling to work out what a good marathon training week should look like. I find I'm usually too sore on a Monday to run hard so I just do a recovery run. Wednesday is the same and usually a day off on Friday. I don't like the thought of facing 20 miles after having done intervals the day before and that's why I do them on a Thursday. It seems that on a seven day week that's the best way to get the most recovery into the legs. Sunday alternates between a day off and some light recovery running.

Could you push the long run to Sunday?

I could some weeks but then I'd struggle to do the faster stuff by Tuesday.

RayCun

squinn2912 wrote: »

Well it builds to a 50+ mile week I know it's not in the higher volume end of things compared to some people but I'd have thought it enough for marathon training. What would you suggest I change?

Is that 50 miles with 30 during the week and 20 at PMP+90 on the weekend?

squinn2912 wrote: »

I could some weeks but then I'd struggle to do the faster stuff by Tuesday.

squinn2912

Is that 50 miles with 30 during the week and 20 at PMP+90 on the weekend? yes something like that.

squinn2912 wrote: »

I could some weeks but then I'd struggle to do the faster stuff by Tuesday.

Yeah, that's the thing. Your training is geared around that tempo run on Tuesday, and it is going to make you good at that tempo effort. (You go into the intervals tired, and you are taking short recoveries, so you are also going to be working close to the same systems.)

You need to put less of your weekly effort into the tempo runs, and more into endurance at paces closer to MP.
Run more at your MP +60 pace. No Sundays and Mondays off, or at least fewer of them. Take a day off on Wednesday instead maybe? Do your long run at MP+60.
Bring your long run into the 15-20 mile range early, and then add things into it - your MP pace finishes, steady miles (MP+30ish), surges, etc.
Don't worry about going a bit slower on your tempo runs, and/or keeping them at the shorter end of the range, or splitting them into 3 tempo/3 MP/3 tempo, that kind of thing.
And add more variety!

I think if I can get the plan right then following it will be fine. Every time I read something I end up with more questions than answers and revert back to what worked before but now the goal is to progress. I'm slowly finding clarity.
So would a better running week be something like this
M - 8 miles MP + 60 progressing to MP + 30
T - 8 miles - 2 at MP, 2 HMP, 2 10kP, 2 MP
W - 4 miles slow recovery or rest
T - Intervals - 800s, 1600s or pyramid sessions (this run causes me untold anxiety - I thought 5 mile reps at 5:50 was fantastic but might not be great training at all)
F - 8 miles slow/steady
S - long run as you've outlined (clearer about this one)
S - 4-5 miles slow recovery

Thats around the 60 mile mark or higher.

RayCun

squinn2912 wrote: »

So would a better running week be something like this
M - 8 miles MP + 60 progressing to MP + 30
T - 8 miles - 2 at MP, 2 HMP, 2 10kP, 2 MP
W - 4 miles slow recovery or rest
T - Intervals - 800s, 1600s or pyramid sessions (this run causes me untold anxiety - I thought 5 mile reps at 5:50 was fantastic but might not be great training at all)
F - 8 miles slow/steady
S - long run as you've outlined (clearer about this one)
S - 4-5 miles slow recovery

Thats around the 60 mile mark or higher.

The Monday could be just MP+60

Tuesday, you don't have to do the same session every week! The progression towards the marathon isn't just making your long run a bit longer each week, your sessions should be progressive as well. Tuesday is something that can get more difficult, and more marathon-specific, as you get closer to the marathon. Maybe you want to end up with a session like 10 miles alternating between tempo and MP (off the top of my head), you can get there starting with shorter runs, and runs where the easier sections are slower (full recovery/walking recovery/easy running)

The Thursday intervals are good training, they're just not marathon-specific. Good for 10ks say. Which is not something you want to neglect in marathon training, but all your training has been preparing you to run a good first half of the marathon.

Are you doing this all on your own? I'd join a club and work on a training plan with a coach there, or pick up a good book (Magness, Pfitzinger, Daniels...) and follow a plan from that.

healy1835

davedanon wrote: »

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
healy1835|18:58|30:55|38:56|1:05:52|1:25:52|3:15:26|Rotterdam 2018
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|2:59:10|TBC 2018
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

May as well stick myself up here. My most recent marathon in Berlin can be read about here. I'm hoping to do a bit of damage to most of these PB's before Rotterdam. Some softer than others. Finding this thread a great read....

Krusty_Clown

Swashbuckler wrote: »

But to put that into context I presume both Krusty and Gary have years upon years of running behind them to build to those times . For the likes of me and zulutango who may have some years of basic running behind us but only started structured training in the last year or so, are the odds against us?

My circumstances are quite different to Gary's (as he's obviously 12 minutes quicker than me - which is a massive chasm at the pointier end of times), but that youngster isn't around, so I'll share my experience.

I started training in earnest (3-4 times a week), in the build-up to my first marathon, which was Longford marathon in August 2008, finishing in 3:25 at age 36. Broke 3 hours (2:55) in Barcelona in March 2010 at age 38, having come pretty close in Berlin the previous September (3:00:50).

I've repeated this so many times on this forum that it's become a bit of a cliche, but after crossing the finish line in Berlin in 3:00:50, I'd have happily retired from running. I never thought that I was the kind of person who could run a 3 hour marathon, and it kind of blew my mind that I was able to achieve it. I went through a similar thought process when I ran 2:48, 2:48, 2:46, 2:43, 2:38, 2:38, 2:35, 2:33, and 2:30:01.

You'll notice the numbers didn't change twice, in the above progression. After running 2:48, I ran a 1 second PB a year later, after investing in a year's training and thousands of miles. Same thing happened when running 2:38. Thousands more miles of hard graft for a 20 second PB. The thought process turns to diminishing returns and reaching the limits of your capability, but then you change things up... Switch to a different plan.. Focus on speed gains over shorter distances before returning to the marathon and you get the results. The bottom line is that when you think you are reaching the limits of your capability, you probably are... Until you do something about it.. And if you listen to Steve Magness, what's makes someone a good marathon runner is the ability to keep grinding away, despite setbacks and cheerless results.

It should be said that the progress hasn't come easy. Every year has equated to greater and greater levels of commitment. The mileage goes up, the weight comes down, the supporting stuff goes up (pilates, yoga, stretching), the injuries get more serious and take longer to recover from, and the dietary focus increases. Not many have the environment or circumstances that allow them to commit to that kind of discipline (young families, inflexible jobs etc.), for what is essentially a hobby, so in many cases you also have to have the opportunity and no small amount of luck. Most people won't get there - but it's not because they can't - it's because they will choose not to.

Final thought: A buddy of mine who I first started this running journey with once asked me: if I had the perfect environment (won the lotto, didn't have to work, perfect coaching etc. etc), what did I think I could run for the marathon? At the time, I reckoned I could beat 2:45. I still haven't won the lotto, but it turns out, you don't really need to - you just need to commit.

ooter

Great post Krusty, love the bit about keeping on grinding away.

psalm69

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
healy1835|18:58|30:55|38:56|1:05:52|1:25:52|3:15:26|Rotterdam 2018
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|2:59:10|TBC 2018
psalm69|18:12|32:53|38:43|1:13:49|1:26:51|3:12:07|Rotterdam 2018
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

All signed up for Rotterdam, and ready to give sub 3 a go. For last Marathon I had a good block of training to get my current PB and I believe consistency was the key in this block of training as the mileage was low.

Upped the mileage over the summer to my detriment and am coming of the back of runners knee! Hoping to start back in December and then start a 14 week plan from January 1

zulutango

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
healy1835|18:58|30:55|38:56|1:05:52|1:25:52|3:15:26|Rotterdam 2018
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|2:59:10|TBC 2018
psalm69|18:12|32:53|38:43|1:13:49|1:26:51|3:12:07|Rotterdam 2018
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
zulutango|18:46|n/a|39:01|n/a|1:25:28|4:33:xx|Seville 2018
Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

Signed up for Seville in February and will have a bash off 3 hours.

squinn2912

RayCun wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

So would a better running week be something like this
M - 8 miles MP + 60 progressing to MP + 30
T - 8 miles - 2 at MP, 2 HMP, 2 10kP, 2 MP
W - 4 miles slow recovery or rest
T - Intervals - 800s, 1600s or pyramid sessions (this run causes me untold anxiety - I thought 5 mile reps at 5:50 was fantastic but might not be great training at all)
F - 8 miles slow/steady
S - long run as you've outlined (clearer about this one)
S - 4-5 miles slow recovery

Thats around the 60 mile mark or higher.

The Monday could be just MP+60

Tuesday, you don't have to do the same session every week! The progression towards the marathon isn't just making your long run a bit longer each week, your sessions should be progressive as well. Tuesday is something that can get more difficult, and more marathon-specific, as you get closer to the marathon. Maybe you want to end up with a session like 10 miles alternating between tempo and MP (off the top of my head), you can get there starting with shorter runs, and runs where the easier sections are slower (full recovery/walking recovery/easy running)

The Thursday intervals are good training, they're just not marathon-specific. Good for 10ks say. Which is not something you want to neglect in marathon training, but all your training has been preparing you to run a good first half of the marathon.

Are you doing this all on your own? I'd join a club and work on a training plan with a coach there, or pick up a good book (Magness, Pfitzinger, Daniels...) and follow a plan from that.

Thanks very much for the advice. I'm torturing everyone on here!
Ah yea I usually begin my tempo at 6 miles and build up to 10 or even 12 but mainly one paced. Some of the guys on here seem to run longer at varied paces for their tempo run.
So on the Thursday would you recommend that I maybe do intervals some weeks and marathon paced longer runs others?
For the long run it's usually a big chunk at 8.00 to 8.30s and the final 6 miles will be MP + 20 with 2 MP miles thrown in at the end plus a cool down mile.
I did run with a club before but found myself a bit disillusioned as it wasn't really taking me on. I am considering joining a new club but work and home commitments mean I can do little training at the group times.

bigslice

I checked back at my 3hr block from 16. A lot of weeks the vast majority of runs where easy miles. The main session was the weekly tempo run at MP building up to 10miles.
A lot of weeks had a decent sized midweek easy paced MP +30/40 secs maedijm run up to 12miles. And then the long run on Sunday long run.

But I ran nearly every day from 5-8 easy miles with some strides thrown in at end it easy run or some hill repeats covering 40-60 seconds and jog recovery.

Squinn you probably have info overload at this stage! I’d get a plan together be it a new approach from previous one you followed or online coach and run with it. Your 2 sessions plus a long run to me just seems to be too many hard runs rather than banking miles and building a good mix of endurance and required speed.

squinn2912

bigslice wrote: »

I checked back at my 3hr block from 16. A lot of weeks the vast majority of runs where easy miles. The main session was the weekly tempo run at MP building up to 10miles.
A lot of weeks had a decent sized midweek easy paced MP +30/40 secs maedijm run up to 12miles. And then the long run on Sunday long run.

But I ran nearly every day from 5-8 easy miles with some strides thrown in at end it easy run or some hill repeats covering 40-60 seconds and jog recovery.

Squinn you probably have info overload at this stage! I’d get a plan together be it a new approach from previous one you followed or online coach and run with it. Your 2 sessions plus a long run to me just seems to be too many hard runs rather than banking miles and building a good mix of endurance and required speed.

Haha that's the thing. I've a hamstring injury I'm nursing so I have all this running time to spend thinking hence all the questions. Your thinking seems to be that I should focus more on endurance than speed. My idea is that I can run 30 miles per week until the middle of January and do plenty of speed within that. Then I build up the miles with one tempo run that I'll alter from week to week. Other runs medium distance and speed with strides/surges.
I hope you feel you're finally getting through this thick skull!

RayCun

squinn2912 wrote: »

So on the Thursday would you recommend that I maybe do intervals some weeks and marathon paced longer runs others?

I'd recommend that you work off a plan that has a mix of different runs, and is aimed at the marathon. You could get that plan in a club, in a book, or from an online coach like Testostercone, but it should be progressive and marathon-specific.

squinn2912 wrote: »

I am considering joining a new club but work and home commitments mean I can do little training at the group times.

I would join a club, even if you think you'll only get to train with them once a week or once a fortnight (though I suppose then it depends on how expensive that club is!)

neilc

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
healy1835|18:58|30:55|38:56|1:05:52|1:25:52|3:15:26|Rotterdam 2018
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|2:59:10|TBC 2018
psalm69|18:12|32:53|38:43|1:13:49|1:26:51|3:12:07|Rotterdam 2018
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
zulutango|18:46|n/a|39:01|n/a|1:25:28|4:33:xx|Seville 2018
Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
neilc|19:19|32:30|39:56|1:10:37|1:29:14|3:10:28|DCM 2018
SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

Hopefully London in April is a good stepping stone to a shot at it in Dublin next year. Itziger achievement at 51 gives me hope!

fletch

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
healy1835|18:58|30:55|38:56|1:05:52|1:25:52|3:15:26|Rotterdam 2018
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|2:59:10|TBC 2018
psalm69|18:12|32:53|38:43|1:13:49|1:26:51|3:12:07|Rotterdam 2018
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
fletch|16:38|28:15|35:41|N/A|1:19:00|3:07:34|Berlin 2018 (hopefully), if not DCM 2018
Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
zulutango|18:46|n/a|39:01|n/a|1:25:28|4:33:xx|Seville 2018
Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
neilc|19:19|32:30|39:56|1:10:37|1:29:14|3:10:28|DCM 2018
SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

I haven't raced a 10 mile in a few years nor a marathon since 2015
Looking at the table though, I really should be capable of a sub 3 as I'm equally (if not faster) than most who have achieved it

AuldManKing

fletch wrote: »

I haven't raced a 10 mile in a few years nor a marathon since 2015
Looking at the table though, I really should be capable of a sub 3 as I'm equally (if not faster) than most who have achieved it

Your recent HM time is a great indication - but I think you'd need to ramp your volume - that being said, there's a guy who runs with our club, who ran 2.57 in Dublin off very little Marathon Specific training. He was training for a couple of Tri's during the year.

Does a lot of cycling and a bit of swimming.

He's just not as arrogant as you

fletch

AuldManKing wrote: »

Your recent HM time is a great indication - but I think you'd need to ramp your volume

Absolutely...the longest run I did this year was about 26k maybe...if I was going for a sub 3, I would be following (or at least trying to follow) a marathon training plan. But ever since dabbling in tri, I'm not sure how interested I would be in running 6 days a week. I like the variety that training for a tri requires.

AuldManKing wrote: »

He's just not as arrogant as you

:P No idea what you're talking about but I do feel like I could go out tomorrow and run a sub 3 marathon on a training run :eek::D:D:D

AuldManKing

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|28:53|36:09|1:02:30|1:24:21|2:58:01|
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
healy1835|18:58|30:55|38:56|1:05:52|1:25:52|3:15:26|Rotterdam 2018
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|2:59:10|TBC 2018
psalm69|18:12|32:53|38:43|1:13:49|1:26:51|3:12:07|Rotterdam 2018
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
fletch|16:38|28:15|35:41|N/A|1:19:00|3:07:34|Berlin 2018 (hopefully), if not DCM 2018
Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
zulutango|18:46|n/a|39:01|n/a|1:25:28|4:33:xx|Seville 2018
Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
neilc|19:19|32:30|39:56|1:10:37|1:29:14|3:10:28|DCM 2018
SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

noelearly

fletch wrote: »

Name|5k|5m|10k|10m|HM|Mara|Target Race
McMillan |18:28|30:28|38:22|1:04:07|1:25:32|3:00:00|Ref Times
hot buttered scones|19:17|n/a|40:24|1:05:41|1:26:26|3:09:13|Frankfurt 2018
TbL |19:27|31:xx|39:30|1:04:xx|1:25:xx|3:05:xx|TBC 2016
FBOT|17:42|29:59|38:42|1:00:34|1:26:02|3:00:59|TBC
AMK|17:38|29:13|37:40|1:02:30|1:27:xx|3:02:22|DCM 2016
Tomwaits48|19:17|32:00|39:xx|1:05:45|1:28:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Duanington|17:35|29:17|36:36|1:01:42|1:23:22|3:03:xx|Berlin 2016
MrMacPhisto|17:23|29:01|36:42|1:01:55|1:22:53|3:00:56|Valencia 2016
snailsong|19:06|31:49|39:11|N/A|1:28:20|3:06:52|TBC 2017
EC1000|17:18|N/a|37:38|61:45|1:22:08|3:07:XX|Rotterdam 2018
rooneyjm|19:35|N/A|39:20|1:08:xx|1:29:37|3:23:xx|DCM 2016
davedanon|18:34|31:34|39:51|1:06:21|1:29:18|3:14:18|
healy1835|18:58|30:55|38:56|1:05:52|1:25:52|3:15:26|Rotterdam 2018
Itziger|17:50|29:52|36:48|N/A|1:22:04|2:59:10|TBC 2018
psalm69|18:12|32:53|38:43|1:13:49|1:26:51|3:12:07|Rotterdam 2018
Sandwell|17:24|28:57|37:10|0:59:29|1:22:xx|N/A|TBC 2016
fletch|16:38|28:15|35:41|N/A|1:19:00|3:07:34|Berlin 2018 (hopefully), if not DCM 2018
Tomred1N |18:30|32:10|41:40|1:05:57|1:24:17|2:57:55|DCM 2017
Ainsyjnr |18:32|30:07|36:50|1:02:24|1:24:04|3:01:46|TBC
Averagejoe123|17:47|30:26|38:41|1:04:45|1:27:xx|3:17:xx|TBC 2017
Kemboi|18:00|29:50|38:00|1:05:50|1:25:30|3:07:xx|DCM 2016
CR 7|17:45|30:30|37:21|1:04:50|1:23:25|5:04:xx|TBC 2016
zulutango|18:46|n/a|39:01|n/a|1:25:28|4:33:xx|Seville 2018
Run and Jump|19:25|33:29|41:22|1:07:09|1:28:51|3:26:14|TBC 2017
El Caballo|18:34|31:15|39:46|1:05:xx|1:26:26|3:15:29|TBC 2017
Bulmers74|18:54|31:46|39:33|1:06:00|1:26:27|3:08:36|TBC 2016
ger664|19:45|N/A|41:11|1:09:33|1:35:56|3:18:12|TBC 2017/18
Jahaco|19:22|31:08|39:07|1:04:19|1:26:23|3:03:19|DCM 2016
rom|17:42|30:29|n/a|1:02:18|1:26:59|2:54:21|London 2017
Wild Garlic|18:04|31:43|38:23|N/A|1:27:07|3:43:xx|TBC
neilc|19:19|32:30|39:56|1:10:37|1:29:14|3:10:28|DCM 2018
SlowTwitch|19:00|31:08|39:31|1:05:09|1:26:00|3:00:22|BetterLongDist
MediumTwitch|18:40|30:40|39:01|1:04:31|1:26:13|2:59:46|BetterMedDist
FastTwitcher|18:22|30:16|38:34|1:03:57|1:25:45|2:59:36|BetterShortDist

I haven't raced a 10 mile in a few years nor a marathon since 2015
Looking at the table though, I really should be capable of a sub 3 as I'm equally (if not faster) than most who have achieved it

Still need to put in the work training wise. Have seen many 28 min 5 Mile lads and 16 min 5k guy's rock up and run 3.30 times.

No easy round this 3 hour stuff unfortunately

fletch

noelearly wrote: »

Still need to put in the work training wise. Have seen many 28 min 5 Mile lads and 16 min 5k guy's rock up and run 3.30 times.

No easy round this 3 hour stuff unfortunately

Yeh I totally understand and respect the distance, it's so much more than 2 half's together...just for personal reasons, I couldn't commit to the training this year.

squinn2912

RayCun wrote: »

squinn2912 wrote: »

So on the Thursday would you recommend that I maybe do intervals some weeks and marathon paced longer runs others?

I'd recommend that you work off a plan that has a mix of different runs, and is aimed at the marathon. You could get that plan in a club, in a book, or from an online coach like Testostercone, but it should be progressive and marathon-specific.

squinn2912 wrote: »

I am considering joining a new club but work and home commitments mean I can do little training at the group times.

I would join a club, even if you think you'll only get to train with them once a week or once a fortnight (though I suppose then it depends on how expensive that club is!)

All good advice. If Testostercone were interested maybe he'd pm me the details to get the ball rolling?

Testosterscone

squinn2912 wrote: »

All good advice. If Testostercone were interested maybe he'd pm me the details to get the ball rolling?

Without coming across as dismissive, you have been on/off training the last 6 months due to injuries. For the forseeable future I would be not looking at training plans or marathon goals. The focus should be on getting back consistent training and forget sessions till the new year.

I know you we saying you want to focus on speed but in all honesty stick to the following base plan will serve you better than any focused plan for the time being

Recovery (MP + 120 sec)
Easy (MP + 90 sec)
Moderate (MP +30/45 sec)
AP (5k effort)

hot buttered scones

Testosterscone wrote: »

Without coming across as dismissive, you have been on/off training the last 6 months due to injuries. For the forseeable future I would be not looking at training plans or marathon goals. The focus should be on getting back consistent training and forget sessions till the new year.

I know you we saying you want to focus on speed but in all honesty stick to the following base plan will serve you better than any focused plan for the time being

Recovery (MP + 120 sec)
Easy (MP + 90 sec)
Moderate (MP +30/45 sec)
AP (5k effort)

New link for the pace calculator:

http://www.runfastcoach.com/calc2/index.php

tomred1N

zulutango wrote: »

I have to say this thread is really informative and inspiring. Thanks all.

Can I ask contributors what their thoughts are on age? I see it's been referenced a few times in the posts above. Obviously there's a drop off in capability with age but is it a significant one and can we put some science on it? The reason I ask is that I am doing the best running I've ever done at 38 years old. The reason it's the best is that I just didn't train or run particularly well before. I can see myself making steady improvements in the next few years (sub 3 and beyond), but at the same time I'm pushing 40 now and I guess that has to be counting against me in some way. I'm just not sure how much. Not that I can do anything about it, but curious all the same.

Was at a S&C talk for runners recently . The instructor a runner himself said age was not really a factor in endurance running. Obviously it is if u have been running at a high level all your life but for the rest of us on here its not an issue if you train smart and listen to your body is telling you. ( and keep away from 800M races

) . You need to keep running though !

He also said if you have never done S&C specific to running and did it consistently for 6 months you'd be almost guaranteed to see big improvements. I know two lads who do this S&C stuff religiously are aged 48 -49 and can run sub 2:40 only having only gone sub 3 a few years ago.

I'll hold off on it a while though so I'll have something to fall back on as I get older :pac: