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Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

Grizzly 45

Picked this up on an FB page from a local group of Munster deer hunters.So treat this as TOTALLY UNCONFIRMED..

As we know the newbies applying for a deer license for Jan 2018 season, will be required to do the HCAP or similar to be considered for a deer hunting license, and the rest of us will apparently have to do the HCAP within a fixed date within the next five years or so.This will be decided apparently by some sort of lottery system applied by NPWS. Don't do the HCAP within a certain timeframe, no deer hunting license for you lad/lady!

Considering this is coming from a state body that has been caught out on makey up law on things like; No Semi-autos are legal for deer hunting, You need 100 acres plus for a license, and .223 is perfectly legal for deer hunting here... You gotta ask is this legit or even plausible.The lad who posted this "claims" to have written an email to the dept and was informed that it's the ministers intent and will to follow this thru on a recommendation of the deer interest groups.:(: mad:

So , has anyone had this blip on their radar ?Or anything of the like? Can we get confirmation or denial of hostile intent?Going by my experience this year, I'd say the hostile intent is very possible, if not plausible.And if so, can we mount a campagin against this before January?

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Grizzly 45

From the deer alliance blog response

A full statement of Account is provided to stakeholder representatives at each Committee meeting (usually held quarterly) and audited accounts are provided annually. In short, full transparency and accountability is followed at all times, and this will continue to be the policy.

Does anyone here know how you find out a statement of accounts from a not for profit organisation?

Update.
So had a chat with the data protection commission.[Another slow bunch of useless so and sos] It seems that nothing, nowt, nada shows up on their listings of any of the organisations mentioned in the Deer Alliance website is Data protection registered. More so that if they are handling personal data and are doing this in the name of the Govt.They MUST BE DPA registered... Sooo, DPA suggests we write and email them to find out exactly what and wherefore and why they are not DPA registered, are they going to DPA register, and if not why not? If we get a non-satisfactory response.[IE we are ignored] totally, the DPA will investigate this organisation.

Lads, I have a very serious problem with giving my personal info and data to some non-govt body, which will probably include somewhere there the type of firearm and my address and God knows where or under what circumstances this information is stored by whom.Not only that off a crowd who wants money as well as personal info off me......If every gun club and range has to comply with DPA rules and be registerd for handling personal data,this lot should absolutely NOT be exempt.
So if you feel the same. Address to contact this lot and ask them is

Deer Alliance,
P.O. Box 1,
Borris,
Co. Carlow.

Phone Number 086 1927 845
Email Address deeralliance@gmail.com
Email Address www.deeralliance.ie

ayagerard

a licence fee should be considered to defray administration costs of licences ,
with close to E400,000 in proposed fees in the purse Wouldn't you think the npws would get the price of the paper and ink , with this crowd stating they are for non profit who gets the money and who did the tax returns from the hcap fees were reciepts issued
i am just asking like

Cass

meathstevie wrote: »

The pr mill is steadily grinding so.

Its why we need to keep writing or if anyone hasn't done it yet then start. might not seem to make much difference, but every letter helps.

Personally I don't think the average farmer could give a fiddlers fart ..............

You could have ended that sentence there. Every land owner i know thinks of them as vermin with one actually annoyed there is a season (which i had to explain to him when he asked why i stop shooting each February).

Lads this is far from a done deal. I've no doubt that now the gears have started that a course will make its way into the "books" at some point, but for now it's not law, the Minister cannot wave a magic wand and make it so, and the Deer Alliance/NPWS/WDAI or whomever else is involved do not have exclusive rights to Deer in this country and cannot control it only as they wish. They are just a bunch of lads that set up a group.

Grizzly 45

Was sent this a while ago.Dunno how much relevance it has to this situation but anyway.

RE: Irish Constitution - Article 45.2.3.
That, especially, the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of
the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals to the common detriment.
.
(in other words, the state CANNOT create a situation where a private company can profit where "common detriment" (the rights of the people) are attacked, undermined or destroyed.)

In other news.Both main political party contacts have been contacted on this matter, and it is now out there in the Dail land... Wondering should we move this now onto media contacts via the Agriland website?

meathstevie

grassroot1 wrote: »

I see there is an article in the Farmers Journal today about the need to have this training course done or no deer licence.

The pr mill is steadily grinding so. Personally I don't think the average farmer could give a fiddlers fart if you've done the HCAP or not. They're bound to care a lot more about their crops and fences and the fact that you're a safe shot who'll leave the area tidy after the hunt.

grassroot1

I see there is an article in the Farmers Journal today about the need to have this training course done or no deer licence.

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Like I said, Irish deer..;)but seriously, deer have an incredible sense of smell, and will vacate an area if they associate a smell with humans. If we can smell nicotine addicts ourselves as humans..We must positively reek to dogs and deer.

You only need to look at the nasal cavity in a deer skull to realise that. Some serious amount of space for air circulation and receptor cells in there. In my case I reckon it could be that they're just not too bothered with it since they're no more than a few hundred metres away from houses or farm yards most of the time.

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

In fairness Grizzly I think the reds on my permission don't give a rats about cigarette smoke. I was sitting in the edge of the forestry having a smoke during late summer waiting for a bit of pigeon action in the adjacent wheat field and out walked a doe and calf.

Like I said, Irish deer..;)but seriously, deer have an incredible sense of smell, and will vacate an area if they associate a smell with humans. If we can smell nicotine addicts ourselves as humans..We must positively reek to dogs and deer.

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

That being said, quite a lot is already allowed for in the Act, so it's not as clear-cut and copper-fastened as you'd think.

Without the need for actual legal advice or direction and without having you read and interpret the entire act do you see anything relating to this exact topic and the specific piece of legislation that would allow for such a mandatory course in the format they are saying is now legally compulsory?

Bg question and i understand if you don't want to nail your flag to a certain post, but can they simply make the hcap mandatory (legally) and going by what they [the deer alliance] said there is no need for legislative (primary or secondary) change to make it happen.

Again all in respect to the hcap.

badaj0z

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Did anyone do or remember a course run by the Irish Deer Society called the Deer management and Hunters training course? Which had a written and practical marksmanship course?I was kindly sent via FB a picture of the very nice certificate and signed off on June 22nd, 2003 by a Liam Mc Garry [Cheif Examiner]Held in the Grandville hotel in Waterford.One day classroom and range test the next day

Now the interesting thing is the person that did this course was assured that this was going to be the be and end all in Irish certification, and this would be the only certification needed and recognised as the exact same crowd now running HCAP were running this and they were in "talks" with Coilte...
Now they are back again, with HCAP and looking for money again and as they say themselves HCAP is the only recognizable course that NPWS/Coilte will accept... So is this the "other qualification" they will accept?

Looks more and more like a money spinner, and contrary to IDS claim that most people on social media agree with their position, there are more posts with a letter "F"[meaning Farce or Fail] than pro comments on this matter.Even the pro comments, when people explain this gig, change their opinions pretty quickly.
Also,as everyone is saying unless you were involved with the deer societies and were on this wild deer forum, no one heard on the individual stalker level about this until the new license applications were issued this season... Even NARGC ,who are supposed to be on this committee.As even the fellah in charge of stalking affairs, was kind of surprised to hear about this...When I rang him in Mid July.

Note the date on this certificate and the 39 years of experience since. Maybe I should examine the examiners before passing them as capable of running a qualification programme.I suspect that I will have to do the HCAP too.

EBjuT6r.jpg?2

meathstevie

In fairness Grizzly I think the reds on my permission don't give a rats about cigarette smoke. I was sitting in the edge of the forestry having a smoke during late summer waiting for a bit of pigeon action in the adjacent wheat field and out walked a doe and calf.

Grizzly 45

SAMPLE HCAP QUESTIONS

20. The current standard Coillte licence /permit allows you to stalk deer between what hours of each day?
a. From dawn until 11.00hrs (am)

Utterly irrelevant question, if this is coming out of the Coilte lets.

52 If you only intend to shoot one deer, how much ammunition should you carry whilst stalking?
a. One round loaded in the rifle, more than one in the magazine and some spare in a pocket

Nope,you can stick a 100 drum on your rifle and hump a ruck sack full of ammo if you want.There is no limit to be carried when stalking.Spare rounds in your pocket??PLEEEASE!! Damaged bullet tips anyone??

63. You are offered some ammunition hand loaded by a friend which he finds performs well in his rifle. What should you do?
a. Test the ammunition when you next go to the range

WTF!!! Seriously?? So when that slightly hot round your buddy messed up because the cat ran over his reloading bench detonates your gun and you are wearing your bolt in your forehead...Who is responsible? Plus WTF is he doing in the ROI reloading hunting ammo???

32. When should the bolt be removed from the rifle whilst stored in the home
a. All the time to avoid its use by an unauthorised person e.g. child/thief

Err..Why do we have expensive gun strong boxes then?It is good practise, but not a mandatory requirement.

164. Carrying a rifle with the firing pin resting on a chambered round is
a. Always dangerous and is an unacceptable practice

That would suggest you rifle is faulty first off if you were to get a discharge under those circumstances, and in a safe,well-maintained gun with the safety on, is no problem at all.And if you are also that paranoid, you can leave the bolt handle in the UP position.The bolt isn't cocked in that state.

182. At what distance can Red deer detect a human wind-borne scent?
a. Over a mile under certain conditions.

183. If you smoke a cigarette while out stalking
a. The smoke will have no effect on the stalk and it can show you wind direction

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D Just.Plain.WRONG!
Taking into consideration the previous question....So I guess the whole de -scent soap and sprays that hunters use, or keeping your stalking clothes outside and sealed in airtight bags in the offseason, or that thousands invested in "stealth hunting clothing" and such is just a marketing gimmick, backed up by no scientific fact? That deer who survive by sight, sound and smell are not bothered by tobacco smoke??Maybe our Irish deer are different?:rolleyes:

It's this kind of nonsense in the manual that gives me serious doubts about the expertise and knowledge, even basic knowledge of the reloaded ammo question and Irish firearms law on the whole project and the people teaching this.

Vizzy

meathstevie wrote: »

Vizzy, that's exactly the point. If you want to make something compulsory for the whole country you should at least be competent enough to edit out your limited private interests.

There's no legislation that mentions a "Coilte representative" when it comes to hunting or being on land with a firearm, landowners or their agent/representative on the other hand ...

My point is simply this,
If I go out tomorrow (having my HCAP cert or whatever in my pocket) in a Coillte forest I must comply with the current
HCAP requirements.
If the HCAP is to become compulsory for all land, then they need to change the manual, but as it isn't compulsory yet you can only comply with what is there presently and I think that the "answers" that Grizzly quoted were put up by cookimonster earlier this year when the proposed changes weren't even being considered.
I'm not for one second condoning the compulsory implementation of HCAP, just saying that the list of answers is currently correct.

Grizzly 45

HCAP manual review by moi...Please feel free to add as to what sort of outdated and incorrect info you can find in it.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103398159

meathstevie

Vizzy, that's exactly the point. If you want to make something compulsory for the whole country you should at least be competent enough to edit out your limited private interests.

There's no legislation that mentions a "Coilte representative" when it comes to hunting or being on land with a firearm, landowners or their agent/representative on the other hand ...

Vizzy

meathstevie wrote: »

Had to grin at Grizzly's list of HCAP q&a's and the question relating to whom you have to show your licence when asked. A Coilte representative ? On Coilte lands that would indeed be correct but on all other land the Coilte representative has zero authority to ask anyone for anything.

If that post was a correct reflection of what's being put out there the person in charge of that manual may start editing to make sure the question and answers are a correct reflection of fact.[/QUOTE

Given that the HCAP only applies to Coillte land, then the question and the answer are correct.
Outside of Coillte land you can tell the Coillte official that your name is Donald Duck for all the difference it will make.

meathstevie

Had to grin at Grizzly's list of HCAP q&a's and the question relating to whom you have to show your licence when asked. A Coilte representative ? On Coilte lands that would indeed be correct but on all other land the Coilte representative has zero authority to ask anyone for anything.

If that post was a correct reflection of what's being put out there the person in charge of that manual may start editing to make sure the question and answers are a correct reflection of fact.

Sparks

ezra_ wrote: »

IANAL, however, wasn't the issue with the suppressors to do with the fact that the guards have a procedure to follow when evaluating an application, and weren't doing it. They were in effect altering the legislation which is a breach of powers.

Ministers are able to alter legislation, within the parameters as set by bill through an SI, effectively if the change is 'administrative' an SI will suffice. If not, it has to go through the Dail.

But to the main point - changes (such as blanket bans) HAVE to come from the Minister. The guards have to follow what is passed/SI'd.

IIRC, the precedent came from Dunne-v-Donohue in the shooting world originally (but it is a much wider principle); that case was over a prerequisite of a gun safe being installed before a licence was granted being applied by a superintendent on the written instructions of an assistant commissioner, and the finding was specifically that such changes need to come from the Oireachtas, not just the Minister unless it's exercising a specific power set forth in the Act already. Nobody else - not AGS, not the DoJ, not the Minister and not the Courts can bring about a blanket ban that isn't provided for in the law already, they just don't have the legal authority to do so.

That being said, quite a lot is already allowed for in the Act, so it's not as clear-cut and copper-fastened as you'd think.

solarwinds

You would imagine the ranges could offer the course for a lot less than €150-00. They have no range rental to pay for and the club house is your class room, so no need to hire expensive hotel function rooms. Just pay a lad or two to run the course and get external accreditation.

Walter Mittys Brother

Be easy enough to compete with HCAP sure all you'd have to do is duplicate exactly what they're doing, call it something else & get NPWS to agree it's the same thing. Then no monopoly and price competition...........?????????

Cass

ezra_ wrote: »

IANAL, however, wasn't the issue with the suppressors to do with the fact that the guards have a procedure to follow when evaluating an application, and weren't doing it. They were in effect altering the legislation which is a breach of powers.

Pretty much, but as i said above it's similar not the exact same.

However this is not the Minister issuing licenses personally. It's the NPWS acting on his departments behalf. So like the Minister for justice can amend legisaltion relating to gun laws and the Gardaí must follow it, the NPWS can only enforce the current legislation and cannot change how things are done based on their own agenda.

Ministers are able to alter legislation, within the parameters as set by bill through an SI,effectively if the change is 'administrative' an SI will suffice. If not, it has to go through the Dail.

They [Ministes] can amend certain aspects of an Act via an SI as it's secondary legislation, but to alter primary legislation requires Dail/Seanad (again i'm on shaky ground here with regard to the extent of my knowledge), but there is no SI here. They [the deer alliance] have said it is not needed. If an SI was drafted and signed by the Minister to say the hcap is the only form of showing competence, while a legal minefield (monopolies, other forms of competence, etc) it'd be legal and enforceable.

As it stands there is no SI, no allowance in the Acts for the hcap, specifically, or any other course for that matter. Just an ability to show competence which once AGAIN cannot and must not be confused with proficiency. Also people have consistently quoted the Coilte manual and the term "or equivalent" as though this manual now has legal standing or will work in lieu of an SI.

But to the main point - changes (such as blanket bans) HAVE to come from the Minister. The guards have to follow what is passed/SI'd.

A Minister would have the power to blanket ban something and unlike firearms this would require no compensation. However i'm not getting into the discussion of banning firearms as its not germane to the thread, and i cannot see a ban on deer staking altogether. My only point about a blanket ban is the act of making an illegal and all encompassing decision.

I don't believe the deer alliance and the other "stakeholders" are on as solid ground as they would believe. Even if it's on the fringe of being legal there is still the matter of ranges to hold the hcap, who else can run them, other forms of showing competence, etc.

The deer alliance said, when they released their 13 point rebuttal, in point number 10:

HCAP is established as the benchmark for equivalence and it is difficult to see how or why an alternative course provider would come forward, other than for purely commercial reasons.

Now if that is not a warning shot across the bow in the form of "don't anyone else get ideas about running a course" then i don't know what is. To call others that may seek to run a similar courses out for profit only when they themselves are trying to gain a strangle hold on the course(s) is laughable, insulting and frankly insulting to the intelligence of anyone that reads it.

Limerick Sovereigns

Cass wrote: »

Yup. Me too.

There are three ranges in the country that have a 100 yard range (at least i think there are only three).

Midlands, An Roicht and Harbour House. Midlands have 24 shooting bays which can be extended to almost 30 at a time. An Roicht, i'm not too sure on, but i'd imagine they can handle about 10 or 12 lads at a time as i've seen that many on the firing line. Could be more so someone will clarify shortly. Lastly Harbour House have a new 100 meter range. I think it holds four, again someone can clarify.

The new range at The Glen in South Tipperary has a 100yard centrerfire range with 5 bays.

ezra_

Cass wrote: »

Then someone [not from the deer alliance] suggested they may be able to "bypass" any necessary legislation with a condition from the Minister on all future deer licenses. I must ask someone better educated than i, but something similar happened a while back when suppressors and certain firearms were being refused en masse in certain districts. It amounted to a blanket ban policy which was illegal. So setting the same condition on each license without case by case process/evaluation and a "blanket ban" policy on all NON hcap holders may amount to the same thing.

IANAL, however, wasn't the issue with the suppressors to do with the fact that the guards have a procedure to follow when evaluating an application, and weren't doing it. They were in effect altering the legislation which is a breach of powers.

Ministers are able to alter legislation, within the parameters as set by bill through an SI, effectively if the change is 'administrative' an SI will suffice. If not, it has to go through the Dail.

But to the main point - changes (such as blanket bans) HAVE to come from the Minister. The guards have to follow what is passed/SI'd.

Cass

cookimonster wrote: »

I think the 'tourist hunter would be acommadated some thing like so.....

Yup, probably.

However as you said and i said myself above that is if they accept the ""or equivalent" part and if the "or equivalent" even has any legal footing.

Cass

cavan shooter wrote: »

It wasnt legislation it was their requirement for the let.

So this "or equivalent" is not legislation. Great i thought i was going mad that everyone kept talking about this and i couldn't find it.

Linking it to the actual license...im not sure that can be done without a change in the legislation.

That leads me onto my next point. If this is a Coilte guideline/rule then it has no legal standing, and without a change to the legisaltion, regardless of what the deer alliance say, it cannot be made mandatory. Coilte also demand a .240 caliber rifle (basically 243 and above) using 100gr bullets. The law says .22 caliber (C/F) with 55gr as a minimum. Which one do you think is legal? If they want this changed can they do it without a legislative change?

Secondly on the point of legislative change. Deer Alliance claim it needs no legislative change as the framework for such a course is already in the 1976 act. The section they reference does say a need to show competence, but does not specify or dictate how that competence (not proficiency) is shown.

Then someone [not from the deer alliance] suggested they may be able to "bypass" any necessary legislation with a condition from the Minister on all future deer licenses. I must ask someone better educated than i, but something similar happened a while back when suppressors and certain firearms were being refused en masse in certain districts. It amounted to a blanket ban policy which was illegal. So setting the same condition on each license without case by case process/evaluation and a "blanket ban" policy on all NON hcap holders may amount to the same thing.

cookimonster

Ahhh the 80's when things where simpler......

.....increase in ammo limit - a scribble of the pen....... substitution- cross out that serial number and insert the new one.........and where a hand rewritten receipt could get you your firearm or ammo until the local lad sent out your green form.

Grizzly 45

Exactly CM, its fine for tourist hunters, but not if you are a resident with an EU or
other qualification.It should transfer over within the EU, but it won't, as someone isn't getting their pound of flesh. Don't know how many times I went hunting in Germany with our old Green, handwritten and stamped bit of paper that was our licenses back in the 80s.

cookimonster

I think the 'tourist hunter would be acommadated some thing like so.....

2.2.1 Licence Holders and Stalking Permit Holders (standard) :-
Only holders of the Hunter Competence Assessment Programme1
(HCAP) qualification can hold a licence to hunt deer on Coillte lands.
All persons nominated to hunt under such licences (“nominated hunters”) will
also require this qualification in order to be issued with an annual stalking permit
which covers the full duration of the hunting season (standard permit)

2.2.2 Stalking Permit Holders (restricted) :- Nominated hunters who do not
hold the HCAP qualification, but do hold an alternative, hunter qualification may,
subject to additional conditions, be issued with a “restricted stalking permit” for
a maximum duration of 2 weeks. A total of two such restricted permits may be
issued to such an individual during the course of a hunting season.

....taken from Coilite Code of Practice.

If you follow on from the section I posted from the Wild Life Act it covers the ministers ability to accept other countries firearms licenceing systems etc....i would take a leap of faith and say that this is ambiguous enough to cover other nations hunting permits. I used my HCAP to get a district licence issued to me in France.

solarwinds

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

See my post RE the IDS in 2003?That was the HCAP in its mk1 format..Same people, same test, same BS.. So with proposed HCAP mk 2, isn't obvious how they plan to get around the "refresher test" status? Cobble something up every decade and sell it as the New HCAP, seriously you'll never have to do another one after this...we promise!":rolleyes:

This "refresher" could be achieved through C.P.D. attend an hour meeting, talk or presentation to keep abreast of any changes in the field.
To make someone sit through a full day again asking the same questions and a range test will be just a money making exercise.
Your ability to hit a target in a few years will not have changed. The deer in the wild will still be the deer in the wild.

solarwinds

Any body in receipt of state funding who needs or requires a service from outside, basically the private sector has to publicaly advertise and receive tenders. And since the e.u. is a common market that includes countries outside of ireland. Now its one thing to publicly advertise for expressions of interest in the service required and only receive one tender that happens, but its a totally different thing to not publicly advertise and only receive one proposal.