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Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

Grizzly 45

Picked this up on an FB page from a local group of Munster deer hunters.So treat this as TOTALLY UNCONFIRMED..

As we know the newbies applying for a deer license for Jan 2018 season, will be required to do the HCAP or similar to be considered for a deer hunting license, and the rest of us will apparently have to do the HCAP within a fixed date within the next five years or so.This will be decided apparently by some sort of lottery system applied by NPWS. Don't do the HCAP within a certain timeframe, no deer hunting license for you lad/lady!

Considering this is coming from a state body that has been caught out on makey up law on things like; No Semi-autos are legal for deer hunting, You need 100 acres plus for a license, and .223 is perfectly legal for deer hunting here... You gotta ask is this legit or even plausible.The lad who posted this "claims" to have written an email to the dept and was informed that it's the ministers intent and will to follow this thru on a recommendation of the deer interest groups.:(: mad:

So , has anyone had this blip on their radar ?Or anything of the like? Can we get confirmation or denial of hostile intent?Going by my experience this year, I'd say the hostile intent is very possible, if not plausible.And if so, can we mount a campagin against this before January?

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grassroot1

I would consider myself fairly well informed and I did not know of this course. There has been no debate in the shooting community or notification to the shooting organisations. I have seen no article written in the Irish Shooters Digest either.
When I read the MCQ I am stunned that someone who would be interested in stalking would not know the open seasons of deer or the differences between the species. Of course they would, people who stalk or are interested in stalking have absorbed all this information already.
Plainly and simply this is a shake down to extract cash from an already over regulated sport.
If this is the best the deer management forum can come up with then they should face the fact that they have failed.

Grizzly 45

Did anyone do or remember a course run by the Irish Deer Society called the Deer management and Hunters training course? Which had a written and practical marksmanship course?I was kindly sent via FB a picture of the very nice certificate and signed off on June 22nd, 2003 by a Liam Mc Garry [Cheif Examiner]Held in the Grandville hotel in Waterford.One day classroom and range test the next day

Now the interesting thing is the person that did this course was assured that this was going to be the be and end all in Irish certification, and this would be the only certification needed and recognised as the exact same crowd now running HCAP were running this and they were in "talks" with Coilte...
Now they are back again, with HCAP and looking for money again and as they say themselves HCAP is the only recognizable course that NPWS/Coilte will accept... So is this the "other qualification" they will accept?

Looks more and more like a money spinner, and contrary to IDS claim that most people on social media agree with their position, there are more posts with a letter "F"[meaning Farce or Fail] than pro comments on this matter.Even the pro comments, when people explain this gig, change their opinions pretty quickly.
Also,as everyone is saying unless you were involved with the deer societies and were on this wild deer forum, no one heard on the individual stalker level about this until the new license applications were issued this season... Even NARGC ,who are supposed to be on this committee.As even the fellah in charge of stalking affairs, was kind of surprised to hear about this...When I rang him in Mid July.

cavan shooter

If I have a DSC level 1 do I still need a HCAP.
What I am saying here is that a government body can't just dictate a specific organisations course there must be a "or similiar"
If I have the "Ich kann Hirsch schießen" course that costs €3000000000 (aren't we so lucky) sure that is acceptable too, once the syllabus is similiar.

.243

cavan shooter wrote: »

If I have a DSC level 1 do I still need a HCAP.

Or flip that the other way around,
Does your hcap cover you not to need a dsc level one if I want to go hunting in the uk or Europe

wexfordman2

.243 wrote: »

Or flip that the other way around,
Does your hcap cover you not to need a dsc level one if I want to go hunting in the uk or Europe

Brilliant point, this may actually be the Achilles heel in the hcap argument ?

If your hcap is not recognised outside of Ireland, then how can they talk about international best practice etc. And if it is recognised outside of Ireland, then there must be a number of hcap equivelants that can or should be recognised here.

solarwinds

As a person who has completed courses outside of ireland because no course was in existence here. The results or course were not recognised because they were deemed not of a sufficiently high enough standard. Even though no course was available here.
No matter what level of qualification you have from elsewhere, it will not be entertained in ireland because no group here got their pound of flesh out of you.
Some reason will always be found to make you have to do at least a one day course here to have it recognised. And as will usually be the case the course will be a mirror copy of a uk ine you have probably already done.

Cass

wexfordman2 wrote: »

With regards point 10, if I owned a range I would be right now looking to get a hcap equivelant and offer a bulk deal for training on range, and doing the test etc. A perfect opportunity for them.

Yup. Me too.

There are three ranges in the country that have a 100 yard range (at least i think there are only three).

Midlands, An Roicht and Harbour House. Midlands have 24 shooting bays which can be extended to almost 30 at a time. An Roicht, i'm not too sure on, but i'd imagine they can handle about 10 or 12 lads at a time as i've seen that many on the firing line. Could be more so someone will clarify shortly. Lastly Harbour House have a new 100 meter range. I think it holds four, again someone can clarify.

With 12 MCQs and 6 range tests that means an average of 160 per range test. The last time i was at a hcap with 167 lads we shot from 10am till 18:30. Running 16 lads at a time (before the new target system) it took that long to get through everyone including repeats, then full repeats, then more repeats. With less bays that time frame goes up.

My point is if these three ranges see that there is a possible €500,000+ to be made over the coming 5 years alone why in the name of God would they allow the Deer Alliance to pay them 8 - 10% in range fees when the range itself have to manage safey, targets, ROs, etc, etc. I said before that the ranges don't run the hcap at the moment. However as it supplies the location, ROs, targets, facilities, the only thing it actually doesn't do is issue the certs.

So if it were me running one of these ranges i'd be thinking of getting myself into the game. They could offer the same course chepaer than the Deer Alliance and run them forthnightly. IOW you could go to one of the ranges, do the MCQ i the morning and then the shooting part in the afternoon. One day and it's all done.

As for the Deer Alliance. Well they don't have a range so if these three ranges decided to run their own and got the necessary "nod" from whomever gives it it would mean the end for the Deer Alliance's hcap monopoly.

You might say "what if Coilte or whomever doesn't give the nod to the ranges". Well as i said above the Deer Alliance don't have a range so if the three ranges refuse permission for the Deer Alliance to run the hcap on their ranges Coilte will see a drop in tenders for leases as less people have the hcap, no new hcap certs will be issued unless the Deer Alliance build a range meaning the whole mandatory certification stops dead, and with no new hcaps the amount of deer licenses start to drop as people cannot get a hcap.

Basically the ranges now have the Deer Alliance over a barrel. If they so wished in fact they could cut out the deer alliance altogether.

Cass

solarwinds wrote: »

No matter what level of qualification you have from elsewhere, it will not be entertained in ireland because no group here got their pound of flesh out of you.
Some reason will always be found to make you have to do at least a one day course here to have it recognised. And as will usually be the case the course will be a mirror copy of a uk ine you have probably already done.

Funny you mention that i was talking to a few lads over the last few days and this came up. One lad has the trained hunter course done (for selling meat) but he done it in the UK. He assumed it would be accepted here, but not the case. Its on the FSAI (Food safety Authroity) website that they only accept the certification from the Irish course which is solely run by the NARGC. The NARGC were the only tenders, apparently, for the course but like the hcap it is an open tender and anyone can apply for it.

The courses done outside of Ireland are, or so i'm told, superior to the hcap yet some are saying they won't be accepted. If that is the case then the "or equivalent" part is meaningless and what they mean is "HCAP and nothing else".

(BTW can someone please link me to the "or equivalent" part of the legislation. Still cannot find it in the various acts and don't know al the SIs to check).

wexfordman2

Not only that Cass, but the ranges could actually offer proficiency training, range practice etc in some firm of bulk package as part if an overall bundled package.

Cass

This raises a couple more points about tourist shooters.

How do they get hcap certification if only the hcap is going to be accepted. Grizzly_45 has gone in to detail, as i believe has Juice1304, about the German exam and it seems more than adequate to show competence. A tourist would have to come over on two separate occasions to do the MCQ and then the range test, then come back in the season to get their shooting done.

If a tourist is coming over then they need their rifle because of the laws and range rules surrounding using other people's firearms. Shouldn't be a huge problem as they'll need a visitors pass regardless, but it means traveling with a firearm three times to bag a deer in Ireland.

Also raises questions about showing competence. If you have experience in firearms for over 15, 20, 25 years and go for a license you're previous experience shows your competence. If those that have shot deer for the last 10, 15 or 20+ years have to do a hcap to show competence then at what level is competence set. Does the last "X" number of years count for nothing? This goes back to the "or equivalent" bit. Surely this many years would account for competence and experience, but if its not accepted then it's back to "HCAP or nothing at all" which is forced tuition and creates a monopoly. I remember reading somewhere about some EU directive against monopolies.

Cass

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Not only that Cass, but the ranges could actually offer proficiency training, range practice etc in some firm of bulk package as part if an overall bundled package.

Again, yup. A range would make a much better alternative. With on site facilities they could offer the HCAP, Trained hunter course, comptence/safety courses, etc. they can even arrange butchery courses/displays. As they're already on site they can do this much more frequently and thus reduce the numbers per course. So the course can be that bit longer.

IOW get 30 lads each weekend and run them through the whole thing. Instead of paying €150 for the hcap and €250 for the trained hunter course they could charge say €300 for both courses and throw in the butchery/safety/competency.

You spend a full 8 hours on site and walk away with everything.

Heh, heh. Wonder if the Deer Alliance or any of the other deer groups that pushed for this have thought this through? As i said if Coilte or the D.o.A.H.R.GA., or the NPWS refuse to acknowledge or recognise anyone other than the Deer Alliance then it's clear that it's not about safety and competence.

wexfordman2

Cass wrote: »

This raises a couple more points about tourist shooters.

How do they get hcap certification if only the hcap is going to be accepted. Grizzly_45 has gone in to detail, as i believe has Juice1304, about the German exam and it seems more than adequate to show competence. A tourist would have to come over on two separate occasions to do the MCQ and then the range test, then come back in the season to get their shooting done.

If a tourist is coming over then they need their rifle because of the laws and range rules surrounding using other people's firearms. Shouldn't be a huge problem as they'll need a visitors pass regardless, but it means traveling with a firearm three times to bag a deer in Ireland.

Also raises questions about showing competence. If you have experience in firearms for over 15, 20, 25 years and go for a license you're previous experience shows your competence. If those that have shot deer for the last 10, 15 or 20+ years have to do a hcap to show competence then at what level is competence set. Does the last "X" number of years count for nothing? This goes back to the "or equivalent" bit. Surely this many years would account for competence and experience, but if its not accepted then it's back to "HCAP or nothing at all" which is forced tuition and creates a monopoly. I remember reading somewhere about some EU directive against monopolies.

Hah, sounds like an end to tourist shooting of deer so, not practical at all, unless they look at accepting other international courses, which immediately opens the door for hcap competition :-)

ayagerard

Cass wrote: »

Again, yup. A range would make a much better alternative. With on site facilities they could offer the HCAP, Trained hunter course, comptence/safety courses, etc. they can even arrange butchery courses/displays. As they're already on site they can do this much more frequently and thus reduce the numbers per course. So the course can be that bit longer.

IOW get 30 lads each weekend and run them through the whole thing. Instead of paying €150 for the hcap and €250 for the trained hunter course they could charge say €300 for both courses and throw in the butchery/safety/competency.

You spend a full 8 hours on site and walk away with everything.

Heh, heh. Wonder if the Deer Alliance or any of the other deer groups that pushed for this have thought this through? As i said if Coilte or the D.o.A.H.R.GA., or the NPWS refuse to acknowledge or recognise anyone other than the Deer Alliance then it's clear that it's not about safety and competence.

cass if you have a minute have a look at this site cant post link but you can find it under

( pdf ) deer management in ireland-npws

a lot of principles objectives and actions
too much for me to decifer
aya

cavan shooter

its dodgy ground saying you wont recognize any course other than HCAP particularly since some of the European courses seem to be of a higher standard.

I have experience through work, where we have to look at other peoples qualifications from different countries and some of them are in house qualifications. We had to break it down and look at the merits of the syllabus etc.

Even the National Framework of Qualifications allows for recognition of prior learning. I would guess the NPWS need to be very careful because they could end up with a solicitors letter from someone saying whats wrong with my course, you are putting up obstacles to free trade (if the training is a commercial entity)

I would suggest that eventually it will be HCAP or a equivalent. Now we have a problem?

NPWS have to sit down and say what they deem is an equivalent, its not hard its a course that meets the same aims and objectives or exceeds the aims and objectives of the HCAP.

Cass

cavan shooter wrote: »

I would suggest that eventually it will be HCAP or a equivalent. Now we have a problem?

NPWS have to sit down and say what they deem is an equivalent, its not hard its a course that meets the same aims and objectives or exceeds the aims and objectives of the HCAP.

Not really directing this at you just quoting it as it brings up a point i am seeking clarification on.

This "or equivalent". I've asked a few times, as i'm curious to know, where does this come from. It's not in legislation that i can find and if it's in the proposals that are to be implemented then it's best guide/practice and not a legal requirement.

If it is in the legislation i'd really like i if someone can link to the appropriate act/section so i can take a read.

Thanks

Grizzly 45

I think the words we are all looking for is" reciprocity of EU qualifying documents"
And yes, they are on the hair-thin ground on this..This is part and parcel of the EU that we must accept each others documentation of proof that we are qualified to do certain things.

Is your Irish drivers license valid in all EU member states? Do you have an EU firearms passport to prove you are entitled to own a firearm and take it [more or less] all over the EU?And are EU documents valid over here? So hence the tourist thing "should be" covered by someone's EU license

Now, a different story arises if you are RESIDENT in different EU countries... I move to Poland, I obviously have to change my license and abide by whatever their gun laws are, and likewise over here. However, if I can provide proof that I have X years of shooting big calibre pistols for example and I want to shoot them in Germany in a club for a certain discipline, it is at the clubs discretion to boost me past the 12-month probie period because I have experience with that firearm.So the next problem is for HCAP anyway,is what to do in a situation where anyone has a 100% superior qualification to this,and what do you do with people who have over 10 years worth of practical knowledge in a native situation?

cavan shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Now, a different story arises if you are RESIDENT in different EU countries... I move to Poland, I obviously have to change my license and abide by whatever their gun laws are, and likewise over here. However, if I can provide proof that I have X years of shooting big calibre pistols for example and I want to shoot them in Germany in a club for a certain discipline, it is at the clubs discretion to boost me past the 12-month probie period because I have experience with that firearm.So the next problem is for HCAP anyway,is what to do in a situation where anyone has a 100% superior qualification to this,and what do you do with people who have over 10 years worth of practical knowledge in a native situation?

I would opine they have to accept it. Even the Deer Alliance in there 2012 submission refer to HCAP or equivalent. If your qualification is an equivalent or on a higher standing ..they would be on the back foot if they didn't accept it.

cavan shooter

Cass wrote: »

Not really directing this at you just quoting it as it brings up a point i am seeking clarification on.

This "or equivalent". I've asked a few times, as i'm curious to know, where does this come from. It's not in legislation that i can find and if it's in the proposals that are to be implemented then it's best guide/practice and not a legal requirement.

If it is in the legislation i'd really like i if someone can link to the appropriate act/section so i can take a read.

Thanks

I Think you need to look at where the HCAP came from...I think it was in and around 2001 when Coilte were looking for proof of competency when you applied for a letting. A bit like you can only come in to this disco wearing black shoes?? It wasnt legislation it was their requirement for the let.

Linking it to the actual license...im not sure that can be done without a change in the legislation.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Thi I remember reading somewhere about some EU directive against monopolies.

Correct... EU competition law ..

Grizzly 45

cavan shooter wrote: »

I Think you need to look at where the HCAP came from...I think it was in and around 2001 when Coilte were looking for proof of competency when you applied for a letting. A bit like you can only come in to this disco wearing black shoes?? It wasnt legislation it was their requirement for the let.

Linking it to the actual license...im not sure that can be done without a change in the legislation.

See my post RE the IDS in 2003?That was the HCAP in its mk1 format..Same people, same test, same BS.. So with proposed HCAP mk 2, isn't obvious how they plan to get around the "refresher test" status? Cobble something up every decade and sell it as the New HCAP, seriously you'll never have to do another one after this...we promise!":rolleyes:

solarwinds

Any body in receipt of state funding who needs or requires a service from outside, basically the private sector has to publicaly advertise and receive tenders. And since the e.u. is a common market that includes countries outside of ireland. Now its one thing to publicly advertise for expressions of interest in the service required and only receive one tender that happens, but its a totally different thing to not publicly advertise and only receive one proposal.

solarwinds

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

See my post RE the IDS in 2003?That was the HCAP in its mk1 format..Same people, same test, same BS.. So with proposed HCAP mk 2, isn't obvious how they plan to get around the "refresher test" status? Cobble something up every decade and sell it as the New HCAP, seriously you'll never have to do another one after this...we promise!":rolleyes:

This "refresher" could be achieved through C.P.D. attend an hour meeting, talk or presentation to keep abreast of any changes in the field.
To make someone sit through a full day again asking the same questions and a range test will be just a money making exercise.
Your ability to hit a target in a few years will not have changed. The deer in the wild will still be the deer in the wild.

cookimonster

I think the 'tourist hunter would be acommadated some thing like so.....

2.2.1 Licence Holders and Stalking Permit Holders (standard) :-
Only holders of the Hunter Competence Assessment Programme1
(HCAP) qualification can hold a licence to hunt deer on Coillte lands.
All persons nominated to hunt under such licences (“nominated hunters”) will
also require this qualification in order to be issued with an annual stalking permit
which covers the full duration of the hunting season (standard permit)

2.2.2 Stalking Permit Holders (restricted) :- Nominated hunters who do not
hold the HCAP qualification, but do hold an alternative, hunter qualification may,
subject to additional conditions, be issued with a “restricted stalking permit” for
a maximum duration of 2 weeks. A total of two such restricted permits may be
issued to such an individual during the course of a hunting season.

....taken from Coilite Code of Practice.

If you follow on from the section I posted from the Wild Life Act it covers the ministers ability to accept other countries firearms licenceing systems etc....i would take a leap of faith and say that this is ambiguous enough to cover other nations hunting permits. I used my HCAP to get a district licence issued to me in France.

Grizzly 45

Exactly CM, its fine for tourist hunters, but not if you are a resident with an EU or
other qualification.It should transfer over within the EU, but it won't, as someone isn't getting their pound of flesh. Don't know how many times I went hunting in Germany with our old Green, handwritten and stamped bit of paper that was our licenses back in the 80s.

cookimonster

Ahhh the 80's when things where simpler......

.....increase in ammo limit - a scribble of the pen....... substitution- cross out that serial number and insert the new one.........and where a hand rewritten receipt could get you your firearm or ammo until the local lad sent out your green form.

Cass

cavan shooter wrote: »

It wasnt legislation it was their requirement for the let.

So this "or equivalent" is not legislation. Great i thought i was going mad that everyone kept talking about this and i couldn't find it.

Linking it to the actual license...im not sure that can be done without a change in the legislation.

That leads me onto my next point. If this is a Coilte guideline/rule then it has no legal standing, and without a change to the legisaltion, regardless of what the deer alliance say, it cannot be made mandatory. Coilte also demand a .240 caliber rifle (basically 243 and above) using 100gr bullets. The law says .22 caliber (C/F) with 55gr as a minimum. Which one do you think is legal? If they want this changed can they do it without a legislative change?

Secondly on the point of legislative change. Deer Alliance claim it needs no legislative change as the framework for such a course is already in the 1976 act. The section they reference does say a need to show competence, but does not specify or dictate how that competence (not proficiency) is shown.

Then someone [not from the deer alliance] suggested they may be able to "bypass" any necessary legislation with a condition from the Minister on all future deer licenses. I must ask someone better educated than i, but something similar happened a while back when suppressors and certain firearms were being refused en masse in certain districts. It amounted to a blanket ban policy which was illegal. So setting the same condition on each license without case by case process/evaluation and a "blanket ban" policy on all NON hcap holders may amount to the same thing.

Cass

cookimonster wrote: »

I think the 'tourist hunter would be acommadated some thing like so.....

Yup, probably.

However as you said and i said myself above that is if they accept the ""or equivalent" part and if the "or equivalent" even has any legal footing.

ezra_

Cass wrote: »

Then someone [not from the deer alliance] suggested they may be able to "bypass" any necessary legislation with a condition from the Minister on all future deer licenses. I must ask someone better educated than i, but something similar happened a while back when suppressors and certain firearms were being refused en masse in certain districts. It amounted to a blanket ban policy which was illegal. So setting the same condition on each license without case by case process/evaluation and a "blanket ban" policy on all NON hcap holders may amount to the same thing.

IANAL, however, wasn't the issue with the suppressors to do with the fact that the guards have a procedure to follow when evaluating an application, and weren't doing it. They were in effect altering the legislation which is a breach of powers.

Ministers are able to alter legislation, within the parameters as set by bill through an SI, effectively if the change is 'administrative' an SI will suffice. If not, it has to go through the Dail.

But to the main point - changes (such as blanket bans) HAVE to come from the Minister. The guards have to follow what is passed/SI'd.

Limerick Sovereigns

Cass wrote: »

Yup. Me too.

There are three ranges in the country that have a 100 yard range (at least i think there are only three).

Midlands, An Roicht and Harbour House. Midlands have 24 shooting bays which can be extended to almost 30 at a time. An Roicht, i'm not too sure on, but i'd imagine they can handle about 10 or 12 lads at a time as i've seen that many on the firing line. Could be more so someone will clarify shortly. Lastly Harbour House have a new 100 meter range. I think it holds four, again someone can clarify.

The new range at The Glen in South Tipperary has a 100yard centrerfire range with 5 bays.

Cass

ezra_ wrote: »

IANAL, however, wasn't the issue with the suppressors to do with the fact that the guards have a procedure to follow when evaluating an application, and weren't doing it. They were in effect altering the legislation which is a breach of powers.

Pretty much, but as i said above it's similar not the exact same.

However this is not the Minister issuing licenses personally. It's the NPWS acting on his departments behalf. So like the Minister for justice can amend legisaltion relating to gun laws and the Gardaí must follow it, the NPWS can only enforce the current legislation and cannot change how things are done based on their own agenda.

Ministers are able to alter legislation, within the parameters as set by bill through an SI,effectively if the change is 'administrative' an SI will suffice. If not, it has to go through the Dail.

They [Ministes] can amend certain aspects of an Act via an SI as it's secondary legislation, but to alter primary legislation requires Dail/Seanad (again i'm on shaky ground here with regard to the extent of my knowledge), but there is no SI here. They [the deer alliance] have said it is not needed. If an SI was drafted and signed by the Minister to say the hcap is the only form of showing competence, while a legal minefield (monopolies, other forms of competence, etc) it'd be legal and enforceable.

As it stands there is no SI, no allowance in the Acts for the hcap, specifically, or any other course for that matter. Just an ability to show competence which once AGAIN cannot and must not be confused with proficiency. Also people have consistently quoted the Coilte manual and the term "or equivalent" as though this manual now has legal standing or will work in lieu of an SI.

But to the main point - changes (such as blanket bans) HAVE to come from the Minister. The guards have to follow what is passed/SI'd.

A Minister would have the power to blanket ban something and unlike firearms this would require no compensation. However i'm not getting into the discussion of banning firearms as its not germane to the thread, and i cannot see a ban on deer staking altogether. My only point about a blanket ban is the act of making an illegal and all encompassing decision.

I don't believe the deer alliance and the other "stakeholders" are on as solid ground as they would believe. Even if it's on the fringe of being legal there is still the matter of ranges to hold the hcap, who else can run them, other forms of showing competence, etc.

The deer alliance said, when they released their 13 point rebuttal, in point number 10:

HCAP is established as the benchmark for equivalence and it is difficult to see how or why an alternative course provider would come forward, other than for purely commercial reasons.

Now if that is not a warning shot across the bow in the form of "don't anyone else get ideas about running a course" then i don't know what is. To call others that may seek to run a similar courses out for profit only when they themselves are trying to gain a strangle hold on the course(s) is laughable, insulting and frankly insulting to the intelligence of anyone that reads it.