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Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

Grizzly 45

Picked this up on an FB page from a local group of Munster deer hunters.So treat this as TOTALLY UNCONFIRMED..

As we know the newbies applying for a deer license for Jan 2018 season, will be required to do the HCAP or similar to be considered for a deer hunting license, and the rest of us will apparently have to do the HCAP within a fixed date within the next five years or so.This will be decided apparently by some sort of lottery system applied by NPWS. Don't do the HCAP within a certain timeframe, no deer hunting license for you lad/lady!

Considering this is coming from a state body that has been caught out on makey up law on things like; No Semi-autos are legal for deer hunting, You need 100 acres plus for a license, and .223 is perfectly legal for deer hunting here... You gotta ask is this legit or even plausible.The lad who posted this "claims" to have written an email to the dept and was informed that it's the ministers intent and will to follow this thru on a recommendation of the deer interest groups.:(: mad:

So , has anyone had this blip on their radar ?Or anything of the like? Can we get confirmation or denial of hostile intent?Going by my experience this year, I'd say the hostile intent is very possible, if not plausible.And if so, can we mount a campagin against this before January?

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Grizzly 45

cavan shooter wrote: »

I Think you need to look at where the HCAP came from...I think it was in and around 2001 when Coilte were looking for proof of competency when you applied for a letting. A bit like you can only come in to this disco wearing black shoes?? It wasnt legislation it was their requirement for the let.

Linking it to the actual license...im not sure that can be done without a change in the legislation.

See my post RE the IDS in 2003?That was the HCAP in its mk1 format..Same people, same test, same BS.. So with proposed HCAP mk 2, isn't obvious how they plan to get around the "refresher test" status? Cobble something up every decade and sell it as the New HCAP, seriously you'll never have to do another one after this...we promise!":rolleyes:

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

Thi I remember reading somewhere about some EU directive against monopolies.

Correct... EU competition law ..

cavan shooter

Cass wrote: »

Not really directing this at you just quoting it as it brings up a point i am seeking clarification on.

This "or equivalent". I've asked a few times, as i'm curious to know, where does this come from. It's not in legislation that i can find and if it's in the proposals that are to be implemented then it's best guide/practice and not a legal requirement.

If it is in the legislation i'd really like i if someone can link to the appropriate act/section so i can take a read.

Thanks

I Think you need to look at where the HCAP came from...I think it was in and around 2001 when Coilte were looking for proof of competency when you applied for a letting. A bit like you can only come in to this disco wearing black shoes?? It wasnt legislation it was their requirement for the let.

Linking it to the actual license...im not sure that can be done without a change in the legislation.

cavan shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Now, a different story arises if you are RESIDENT in different EU countries... I move to Poland, I obviously have to change my license and abide by whatever their gun laws are, and likewise over here. However, if I can provide proof that I have X years of shooting big calibre pistols for example and I want to shoot them in Germany in a club for a certain discipline, it is at the clubs discretion to boost me past the 12-month probie period because I have experience with that firearm.So the next problem is for HCAP anyway,is what to do in a situation where anyone has a 100% superior qualification to this,and what do you do with people who have over 10 years worth of practical knowledge in a native situation?

I would opine they have to accept it. Even the Deer Alliance in there 2012 submission refer to HCAP or equivalent. If your qualification is an equivalent or on a higher standing ..they would be on the back foot if they didn't accept it.

Grizzly 45

I think the words we are all looking for is" reciprocity of EU qualifying documents"
And yes, they are on the hair-thin ground on this..This is part and parcel of the EU that we must accept each others documentation of proof that we are qualified to do certain things.

Is your Irish drivers license valid in all EU member states? Do you have an EU firearms passport to prove you are entitled to own a firearm and take it [more or less] all over the EU?And are EU documents valid over here? So hence the tourist thing "should be" covered by someone's EU license

Now, a different story arises if you are RESIDENT in different EU countries... I move to Poland, I obviously have to change my license and abide by whatever their gun laws are, and likewise over here. However, if I can provide proof that I have X years of shooting big calibre pistols for example and I want to shoot them in Germany in a club for a certain discipline, it is at the clubs discretion to boost me past the 12-month probie period because I have experience with that firearm.So the next problem is for HCAP anyway,is what to do in a situation where anyone has a 100% superior qualification to this,and what do you do with people who have over 10 years worth of practical knowledge in a native situation?

Cass

cavan shooter wrote: »

I would suggest that eventually it will be HCAP or a equivalent. Now we have a problem?

NPWS have to sit down and say what they deem is an equivalent, its not hard its a course that meets the same aims and objectives or exceeds the aims and objectives of the HCAP.

Not really directing this at you just quoting it as it brings up a point i am seeking clarification on.

This "or equivalent". I've asked a few times, as i'm curious to know, where does this come from. It's not in legislation that i can find and if it's in the proposals that are to be implemented then it's best guide/practice and not a legal requirement.

If it is in the legislation i'd really like i if someone can link to the appropriate act/section so i can take a read.

Thanks

cavan shooter

its dodgy ground saying you wont recognize any course other than HCAP particularly since some of the European courses seem to be of a higher standard.

I have experience through work, where we have to look at other peoples qualifications from different countries and some of them are in house qualifications. We had to break it down and look at the merits of the syllabus etc.

Even the National Framework of Qualifications allows for recognition of prior learning. I would guess the NPWS need to be very careful because they could end up with a solicitors letter from someone saying whats wrong with my course, you are putting up obstacles to free trade (if the training is a commercial entity)

I would suggest that eventually it will be HCAP or a equivalent. Now we have a problem?

NPWS have to sit down and say what they deem is an equivalent, its not hard its a course that meets the same aims and objectives or exceeds the aims and objectives of the HCAP.

ayagerard

Cass wrote: »

Again, yup. A range would make a much better alternative. With on site facilities they could offer the HCAP, Trained hunter course, comptence/safety courses, etc. they can even arrange butchery courses/displays. As they're already on site they can do this much more frequently and thus reduce the numbers per course. So the course can be that bit longer.

IOW get 30 lads each weekend and run them through the whole thing. Instead of paying €150 for the hcap and €250 for the trained hunter course they could charge say €300 for both courses and throw in the butchery/safety/competency.

You spend a full 8 hours on site and walk away with everything.

Heh, heh. Wonder if the Deer Alliance or any of the other deer groups that pushed for this have thought this through? As i said if Coilte or the D.o.A.H.R.GA., or the NPWS refuse to acknowledge or recognise anyone other than the Deer Alliance then it's clear that it's not about safety and competence.

cass if you have a minute have a look at this site cant post link but you can find it under

( pdf ) deer management in ireland-npws

a lot of principles objectives and actions
too much for me to decifer
aya

wexfordman2

Cass wrote: »

This raises a couple more points about tourist shooters.

How do they get hcap certification if only the hcap is going to be accepted. Grizzly_45 has gone in to detail, as i believe has Juice1304, about the German exam and it seems more than adequate to show competence. A tourist would have to come over on two separate occasions to do the MCQ and then the range test, then come back in the season to get their shooting done.

If a tourist is coming over then they need their rifle because of the laws and range rules surrounding using other people's firearms. Shouldn't be a huge problem as they'll need a visitors pass regardless, but it means traveling with a firearm three times to bag a deer in Ireland.

Also raises questions about showing competence. If you have experience in firearms for over 15, 20, 25 years and go for a license you're previous experience shows your competence. If those that have shot deer for the last 10, 15 or 20+ years have to do a hcap to show competence then at what level is competence set. Does the last "X" number of years count for nothing? This goes back to the "or equivalent" bit. Surely this many years would account for competence and experience, but if its not accepted then it's back to "HCAP or nothing at all" which is forced tuition and creates a monopoly. I remember reading somewhere about some EU directive against monopolies.

Hah, sounds like an end to tourist shooting of deer so, not practical at all, unless they look at accepting other international courses, which immediately opens the door for hcap competition :-)

Cass

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Not only that Cass, but the ranges could actually offer proficiency training, range practice etc in some firm of bulk package as part if an overall bundled package.

Again, yup. A range would make a much better alternative. With on site facilities they could offer the HCAP, Trained hunter course, comptence/safety courses, etc. they can even arrange butchery courses/displays. As they're already on site they can do this much more frequently and thus reduce the numbers per course. So the course can be that bit longer.

IOW get 30 lads each weekend and run them through the whole thing. Instead of paying €150 for the hcap and €250 for the trained hunter course they could charge say €300 for both courses and throw in the butchery/safety/competency.

You spend a full 8 hours on site and walk away with everything.

Heh, heh. Wonder if the Deer Alliance or any of the other deer groups that pushed for this have thought this through? As i said if Coilte or the D.o.A.H.R.GA., or the NPWS refuse to acknowledge or recognise anyone other than the Deer Alliance then it's clear that it's not about safety and competence.

Cass

This raises a couple more points about tourist shooters.

How do they get hcap certification if only the hcap is going to be accepted. Grizzly_45 has gone in to detail, as i believe has Juice1304, about the German exam and it seems more than adequate to show competence. A tourist would have to come over on two separate occasions to do the MCQ and then the range test, then come back in the season to get their shooting done.

If a tourist is coming over then they need their rifle because of the laws and range rules surrounding using other people's firearms. Shouldn't be a huge problem as they'll need a visitors pass regardless, but it means traveling with a firearm three times to bag a deer in Ireland.

Also raises questions about showing competence. If you have experience in firearms for over 15, 20, 25 years and go for a license you're previous experience shows your competence. If those that have shot deer for the last 10, 15 or 20+ years have to do a hcap to show competence then at what level is competence set. Does the last "X" number of years count for nothing? This goes back to the "or equivalent" bit. Surely this many years would account for competence and experience, but if its not accepted then it's back to "HCAP or nothing at all" which is forced tuition and creates a monopoly. I remember reading somewhere about some EU directive against monopolies.

wexfordman2

Not only that Cass, but the ranges could actually offer proficiency training, range practice etc in some firm of bulk package as part if an overall bundled package.

Cass

solarwinds wrote: »

No matter what level of qualification you have from elsewhere, it will not be entertained in ireland because no group here got their pound of flesh out of you.
Some reason will always be found to make you have to do at least a one day course here to have it recognised. And as will usually be the case the course will be a mirror copy of a uk ine you have probably already done.

Funny you mention that i was talking to a few lads over the last few days and this came up. One lad has the trained hunter course done (for selling meat) but he done it in the UK. He assumed it would be accepted here, but not the case. Its on the FSAI (Food safety Authroity) website that they only accept the certification from the Irish course which is solely run by the NARGC. The NARGC were the only tenders, apparently, for the course but like the hcap it is an open tender and anyone can apply for it.

The courses done outside of Ireland are, or so i'm told, superior to the hcap yet some are saying they won't be accepted. If that is the case then the "or equivalent" part is meaningless and what they mean is "HCAP and nothing else".

(BTW can someone please link me to the "or equivalent" part of the legislation. Still cannot find it in the various acts and don't know al the SIs to check).

Cass

wexfordman2 wrote: »

With regards point 10, if I owned a range I would be right now looking to get a hcap equivelant and offer a bulk deal for training on range, and doing the test etc. A perfect opportunity for them.

Yup. Me too.

There are three ranges in the country that have a 100 yard range (at least i think there are only three).

Midlands, An Roicht and Harbour House. Midlands have 24 shooting bays which can be extended to almost 30 at a time. An Roicht, i'm not too sure on, but i'd imagine they can handle about 10 or 12 lads at a time as i've seen that many on the firing line. Could be more so someone will clarify shortly. Lastly Harbour House have a new 100 meter range. I think it holds four, again someone can clarify.

With 12 MCQs and 6 range tests that means an average of 160 per range test. The last time i was at a hcap with 167 lads we shot from 10am till 18:30. Running 16 lads at a time (before the new target system) it took that long to get through everyone including repeats, then full repeats, then more repeats. With less bays that time frame goes up.

My point is if these three ranges see that there is a possible €500,000+ to be made over the coming 5 years alone why in the name of God would they allow the Deer Alliance to pay them 8 - 10% in range fees when the range itself have to manage safey, targets, ROs, etc, etc. I said before that the ranges don't run the hcap at the moment. However as it supplies the location, ROs, targets, facilities, the only thing it actually doesn't do is issue the certs.

So if it were me running one of these ranges i'd be thinking of getting myself into the game. They could offer the same course chepaer than the Deer Alliance and run them forthnightly. IOW you could go to one of the ranges, do the MCQ i the morning and then the shooting part in the afternoon. One day and it's all done.

As for the Deer Alliance. Well they don't have a range so if these three ranges decided to run their own and got the necessary "nod" from whomever gives it it would mean the end for the Deer Alliance's hcap monopoly.

You might say "what if Coilte or whomever doesn't give the nod to the ranges". Well as i said above the Deer Alliance don't have a range so if the three ranges refuse permission for the Deer Alliance to run the hcap on their ranges Coilte will see a drop in tenders for leases as less people have the hcap, no new hcap certs will be issued unless the Deer Alliance build a range meaning the whole mandatory certification stops dead, and with no new hcaps the amount of deer licenses start to drop as people cannot get a hcap.

Basically the ranges now have the Deer Alliance over a barrel. If they so wished in fact they could cut out the deer alliance altogether.

solarwinds

As a person who has completed courses outside of ireland because no course was in existence here. The results or course were not recognised because they were deemed not of a sufficiently high enough standard. Even though no course was available here.
No matter what level of qualification you have from elsewhere, it will not be entertained in ireland because no group here got their pound of flesh out of you.
Some reason will always be found to make you have to do at least a one day course here to have it recognised. And as will usually be the case the course will be a mirror copy of a uk ine you have probably already done.

wexfordman2

.243 wrote: »

Or flip that the other way around,
Does your hcap cover you not to need a dsc level one if I want to go hunting in the uk or Europe

Brilliant point, this may actually be the Achilles heel in the hcap argument ?

If your hcap is not recognised outside of Ireland, then how can they talk about international best practice etc. And if it is recognised outside of Ireland, then there must be a number of hcap equivelants that can or should be recognised here.

.243

cavan shooter wrote: »

If I have a DSC level 1 do I still need a HCAP.

Or flip that the other way around,
Does your hcap cover you not to need a dsc level one if I want to go hunting in the uk or Europe

cavan shooter

If I have a DSC level 1 do I still need a HCAP.
What I am saying here is that a government body can't just dictate a specific organisations course there must be a "or similiar"
If I have the "Ich kann Hirsch schießen" course that costs €3000000000 (aren't we so lucky) sure that is acceptable too, once the syllabus is similiar.

Grizzly 45

Did anyone do or remember a course run by the Irish Deer Society called the Deer management and Hunters training course? Which had a written and practical marksmanship course?I was kindly sent via FB a picture of the very nice certificate and signed off on June 22nd, 2003 by a Liam Mc Garry [Cheif Examiner]Held in the Grandville hotel in Waterford.One day classroom and range test the next day

Now the interesting thing is the person that did this course was assured that this was going to be the be and end all in Irish certification, and this would be the only certification needed and recognised as the exact same crowd now running HCAP were running this and they were in "talks" with Coilte...
Now they are back again, with HCAP and looking for money again and as they say themselves HCAP is the only recognizable course that NPWS/Coilte will accept... So is this the "other qualification" they will accept?

Looks more and more like a money spinner, and contrary to IDS claim that most people on social media agree with their position, there are more posts with a letter "F"[meaning Farce or Fail] than pro comments on this matter.Even the pro comments, when people explain this gig, change their opinions pretty quickly.
Also,as everyone is saying unless you were involved with the deer societies and were on this wild deer forum, no one heard on the individual stalker level about this until the new license applications were issued this season... Even NARGC ,who are supposed to be on this committee.As even the fellah in charge of stalking affairs, was kind of surprised to hear about this...When I rang him in Mid July.

grassroot1

I would consider myself fairly well informed and I did not know of this course. There has been no debate in the shooting community or notification to the shooting organisations. I have seen no article written in the Irish Shooters Digest either.
When I read the MCQ I am stunned that someone who would be interested in stalking would not know the open seasons of deer or the differences between the species. Of course they would, people who stalk or are interested in stalking have absorbed all this information already.
Plainly and simply this is a shake down to extract cash from an already over regulated sport.
If this is the best the deer management forum can come up with then they should face the fact that they have failed.

solarwinds

Also with the sums of money involved with these state bodies. Was there a public tender process posted on e tenders.
I think not, so a state body has just handed this contract to a private organisation. If this had been publicly advertised which it should have been there would have interest from uk and other european countries who already have established courses.
All smells a bit dodgy to me but then again if there is money to be made sure someone will know someone who could run that course.

wexfordman2

Cass wrote: »

Soem thoughts on the points raised, but the first one is notice at the very start how they say "misinformation" and "confusion". The same wording the so called coalition used when it was found out they put forward a proposal (with these groups) to ban night time hunting. IOW we're all to stupid or ignorant to understand.

Point 1 - "Non profit". Where does the money go then? If its for Coilte then why is it necessary for shooting outside of Coilte lands?
Point 2 - "Stakeholders". So it' made up of lads that came together to form an association. As i said earlier that does not qualify them as experts and there is no mention of accredited certificates/qualifications to show they're are competent other than "time served" in the sport.
Point 3 - They say they have been pushing for hcap style training for decades. No wonder when you get €150 per head. As for the amount of people that have completed it. I don't doubt some have done it just to have it, but the number they quote (2,600) does not account for those that done the hcap but no longer shoot or no longer shoot coilte lands.
Point 4 - Basically the FCP for deer stalkers/hunting.
Point 5 - A lot to cover here. These "stakeholders" decided to propose a mandatory hcap for everyone that wanted a DHL. They talk about marksmanship and safe storage handling of firearms. Marksmanship is proficiency, not competency. We discussed this at length and how making proficiency a prerequisite for a firearms license is a dangerous precedence and something that cannot be judged on a single act. It is also something that can increase or decrease over time. So it'll be a constant process of evaluation. Safe handling and storage of a firearm is done when you apply for a firearm and has nothing to do with hcap or the "stakeholders" that run it. It's a matter for An Gardaí and cannot be given to private groups. Lastly the proposal for a mandatory hcap was accepted by the Minister. Well then where is the legislation, amendment to the existing act or SI?
Point 6 - Where were the proposals, decisions, recommendations and acceptance published? Was every effort made to let people know this was happening and being implemented?
Point 7 - In short we're going to make approx €600,000 over the next five years. For a non profit that is good money. So again where does it go?
Point 8 - Now we're getting there. So a single hcap test of say 100 lads brings in €15,000. Each Deer alliance person gets a fee for their day. The range gets a fee for the test, and the location of the MCQ gets a fee. The rest goes to administration of the website, internet service provider costs, and "indirect costs". So break it down. Range costs about €1,500 (100 x €15 per head). Each deer alliance man getting say €300 for their day is 5 x €300 so another €1,500. The hotel/location for the MCQ is most likely about €300 (i've hired function rooms and they are about this). Website domain names, and admin hosting costs are something i'm not sure on but can we agree on €50 per month. Allowing for a couple of tests er year it's hard to figure the cost per test but we'll half the yearly cost and say €300 for 6 months. So we're up to €3,600. Soem things do't make sense. ISP (internet srvice provider). This is the monthly internet fee. Usually between €15 to €50 per month. I'd assume it's done by the website management crowd so would be part of the fee above? Also travel costs. If each man is paid for his day does that not include travel costs too? Say they are separate costs. Allow another €600 for both. That makes €4,200. The hcap manual costs €35 so that more than covers printing fees so that doesn't count. So rounding up for any unknown or shortfall i expenses and we can call it €5,000 in expenses per test. So they take in €15,000 and spend €5,000. Where is the other €10,000 gone?
Point 9 - Brilliant. We're accredited, but actually we're not because, as i said before, NO group, association, person, etc. has official recognition from any state body. Yes Coilte accept the hcap, but they called for it, and acceptance is not the same as being officially recognized.
Point 10 - This one is a pot shot at anyone thinking of setting up. In shrot what they are saying is because we've been doing it for 12 years why would the NPWS allow anyone else to come along and provide a course that could challenge our monopoly. Fecking priceless. Well it'll happen. You find either fly by nights or proper set ups. In fact i'd love to see a few other gorups or ranges starting this. See how much they support mandatory hcap when others are dipping into the cash flow, because according this point the only reason someone would dare to set up an alternative is for monetary reasons. Well as with point 8, where does the money they get go?
Point 11 - This will make us all better is what they are saying here and anyone who opposes it (probably us they;re speaking about) is wrong. Well the MCQ is a joke according to those i've spoken to about and it and the range test is just as bad. Failing multiple times only to be allowed to repeat it until you pass is not a test. So jog on with that.
Point 12 - Won't someone think of the children, basically. IOW only genuine stalkers will support this and if you don't then you're not a stalker. Bullsh*t. We are not opposed to education, we are opposed to a consortium of private groups making a sh*t ton of money out of a proposal they set forward. Deer are free in this country. No one owns them. Yet they seek to privatize the sport under the guise of education.
Point 13 - As cookimonster mentioned above this was the fear, that it'd be introduced as a condition. Right so, as with the competence, the act does not specify hcap. It says "or equivalent". So if i put forward 10, 15, 25, 30 years of shooting experience does that not show the necessary experience? If so how do they test me to see i have it. Like with the competence courses the cert from a course is only one of four ways to prove competence so surely there must be other ways than the hcap to prove competence?

These proposals were, to the best of my knowledge, not well known about if at all. Opposition when they were proposed would have given us two years to counter them. Instead we get this at the last minute. While some will say they are opposed you'll be surprised at the amount of people that will do the course rather than not go for the license.

When it turns to other forms of hunting i wonder if they'll be as magnanimous.

With regards point 10, if I owned a range I would be right now looking to get a hcap equivelant and offer a bulk deal for training on range, and doing the test etc. A perfect opportunity for them.

solarwinds

As a guy who used to shoot deer but haven't for some time. I have to take exception to item 6 on the reply of the deer groups. That being that there can be no reason that everyone didn't know that this was happening as extensive consultation and notifications were given through the relevant bodies.
As a person who never shot on coillte lands and was not associated with any deer groups, how was i to be notified. HCAP was only ever mentioned in relation to coillte and of no concern to me on private lands.
Whats happening here is the same as what seems to be happening in target shooting. A body trying to regulate and control shooting out of existence.
And for those that think sure its only the deer thats being regulated think again, these people start with one element and gradually infest every aspect till its rotten.
Look at the construction industry. There was a time you qualified and went to work being deemed competent to do so. But now before you can get in the van you have to have safe pass (the greatest money scam yet of which no one fails), working at heights, rgii registration, safe electric QC, manual handling, abrasive discs, mewp ticket etc. Basically the guts of ten different cards, tickets and courses all of which have to be renewed on a regular bases.
So don't for one second think that this won't spread like a disease. And don't be surprised if in 5 years time you find yourself sitting in a classroom of a hazardous materials handling course to learn how to safely handle the lead in your bullet. Oh ya and of course the waste permit you will need to dispose of the spent shell.
No discipline of shooting is safe there is no distinction made between the person who punches holes in paper and the rough shooter.
So if everyone could cop on and realise that the sport as a whole is being threatened and work together things would be a lot better for everyone.
You as a person who shoots is what the authorities are after as long as you use a stick that goes bang for sport you are fair game and out to be got. It does not matter and no discipline is immune.
Rant over.

Cass

cookimonster wrote: »

I have already posted this in a previous thread dealing with deer licences.....it does not specify HCAP but does talk about requirement of evidence of comptency....tell me I'm wrong and I'll go back to my pots and pans.

Can someone link to the legislation that says "or equivalent". Thanks.

gunny123

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Speaking of boycotts. If no range allowed them the use of their facilities they'd be in a fix ............... just a thought

Yeah but principles fly out the window when a few bob is mentioned/offered, this is Ireland after all. Corrupt from top to bottom.

Grizzly 45

Should save 25 euros for the manual,and make the multiple choice test part alot easier.
Found this on a thread from earlier this year.:)

SAMPLE HCAP QUESTIONS

1. What is the commonest and most widespread species of deer in Ireland?
a. Fallow
2. To whom are you obliged to show your hunting licence if challenged while out stalking?
a. Coillte Representatives
b. Garda
c. Wild Life Rangers
d. All of the above
3. What are the best months to carry out a census of woodland deer?
a. March-April
4. What are the main physical differences between sika deer and fallow deer?
a. Tail length
b. Antler Type
c. Caudal Patch (rump)
d. All of the above
5. What should be the main objectives of a good deer manager?
a. Shoot enough deer to keep the herd in balance with the habitat available.
6. "Deer are colour-blind, so wearing hi-visibility clothing while stalking (as recommended by Coillte) has no effect on the success or failure of your stalk". Is this statement true or false?
a. True
7. "The current standard Coillte sporting licence stipulates that, for health, animal disease prevention and vermin control reasons, the gralloch (offal or viscera from a shot deer) must always be buried inside the forest immediately after shooting". Is this statement true or false?
a. False
8. You have shot a deer and wish to sell the carcass to a registered game dealer. You have no chilling facilities at home. Within what time frame must the carcass be presented to the game dealer?
a. 12
9. Where are scent glands in deer located?
a. Suborbital -under eyes
b. Interdigetal- between hooves
c. Metatarsal -below hock
d. All three
10. What is the average gestation period in Irish deer species?
a. 71/2-8 months 240days
11. Where should you place warning notices prior to commencing stalking on Coillte property?
a. All points of entry to the property
12. What is the minimum legally-required muzzle energy of a rifle intended for hunting deer?
a. 1,700lb/ft
13. What is the minimum recommended deer legal calibre
a. .240, with 100 grain bullet and 1900 foot-pounds of energy at muzzle.
14. Bovine tuberculosis is a scheduled and notifiable disease. If you find evidence of TB in a deer carcase, who must bylaw be notified?
a. Local District Veterinary Office
15. When examining a deer carcase for bovine tuberculosis, where should you look for evidence of infection or abscessation?
a. Lymph nodes
b. Lung tissue
c. Liver tissue
d. All three
16. Where are the retropharyngeal lymph nodes located?
a. Head
17. The current open season for fallow does in Co. Dublin runs from what date to what date?
a. 1st November - 28th February
18. The current closed season for sika stags in Co. Wicklow is from what date to what date?
a. 31st December - 28th February
19. Within which daily time frame may you legally hunt wild deer on private land (assuming that you are fully licensed and authorised in every respect)?
a. From one hour before dawn until one hour after sunset
20. The current standard Coillte licence /permit allows you to stalk deer between what hours of each day?
a. From dawn until 11.00hrs (am)
21. You want to do a deer count on the forest area that you stalk, in order to confirm the proposed cull. You propose doing this at night with the aid of a lamp. In what circumstances can you do this?
a. Under licence from NPWS
22. Who owns wild deer while they are alive?
a. No body
23. Who owns wild deer once they are legally hunted, shot and killed?
a. The Stalker
24. The ordinary period for which a deer hunting licence maybe granted runs from what date to what date?
a. Aug 1 - July 31
25. You are out shooting foxes during the closed season for deer, on land where you have permission to hunt deer. In what circumstances may you legally shoot red deer?
a. For humane reasons only
26. You are out shooting foxes during the closed season for deer, on land where you have permission to hunt deer. In what circumstances may you legally shoot sika or fallow deer?
a. For humane reasons only
27. Where is the caudal disc located on a sika deer?
a. The rump
28. What is the current minimum age at which application may be made for a deer hunting licence?
a. 16
29. What is the current minimum age at which a person is entitled to hold a full firearms certificate?
a. 16
30. The effect of rising deer numbers in an area is likely to be first noticed by observing what?
a. Damage to agricultural land and farm crops
31. What is meant by "the shot clock"?
a. Shows the optimum area for bullet placement
32. In what circumstances may a deer if found injured on the road, apparently beyond the prospect of saving, be legally killed?
a. Any time, by anyone.
33. Coillte reserves concurrent rights to control deer on some licensed properties. When will these rights normally be exercised and to remove what type of animals?
a. Deer and other species when it is considered necessary for good management.
34. Motorised vehicular access to Coillte property is permitted for what purposes only?
a. Retrieval of carcasses only
35. When is it legal in Ireland to hunt or kill deer with a bow and arrow especially designed for deer hunting?
a. Never
36. The metatarsal gland on a sika hind is located where?
a. Hock / Leg
37. The metatarsal gland on a mature sika stag is what colour?
a. White
38. You shoot a deer, which kicks out high in the air with its hind legs before moving off with lowered head and hunched back. In what part of its body has it most likely been shot?
a. Stomach
39. A distinct trail of bright red blood indicates a deer shot in what part of its body?
Heart
a.
40. A reasonable estimation of the age of a culled male deer can be gained from what aspects of its body?
a. Size and shape of pedicle / antlers
41. What should be the correct point of aim when shooting at a target steeply below the shooter?
a. Lower than normal point of aim
42. What should be the correct point of aim when shooting at a target steeply above the shooter?
a. Lower than normal point of aim
43. When shooting deer in woods or on level ground safety can be improved by:
a. Using a high seat
44. Which of the following deer wallow most readily?
a. Sika / Red
45. When should you take off the safety catch whilst deer stalking?
a. When you are in the aim and about to squeeze the trigger
46. Stalking in fog is:
a. Dangerous because you cannot be sure of a safe backdrop
47. Where are a deer's antlers shed and regrown from each year?
a. The pedicle
48. Slka hinds usually
a. Give birth to a single calf
49. Tree bole scoring with antler points is predominantly done by which of the following species?
a. Sika / hybrids
50. How many offspring will wild Red deer hinds produce?
a. They will very rarely bear twin calves
51. Which is the best point of aim to ensure a humane kill at most sensible distances?
a. Half way up the body just behind the shoulder
52. If you only intend to shoot one deer, how much ammunition should you carry whilst stalking?
a. One round loaded in the rifle, more than one in the magazine and some spare in a pocket
53. Which of the following items is the most important for a sensible stalker to carry with him whilst out stalking?
a. A pull through and cleaning patch
54. How is a Sika stag's rutting activity in woodland best described?
a. Using a rutting stand to attract hinds
b. Herding hinds into a harem
c. Defence of a territory
d. A mixture of all three strategies
55. What best describes a Red hind's alarm call?
a. A deep bark
56. You shoot a deer and it falls down, when you approach it you believe it to be dead, what should your first action be?
a. Check it is dead by touching an eyeball and watching for reaction
57. Which of the follwing best describes the behaviour pattern within a Red deer hind herd
a. There is a definite pecking order of
58. For a few days after their birth, young deer generally:
a. Are left alone in cover by their mothers between suckling
59. What is the correct name for black coloured Fallow deer?
a. Melanistic
60. The majority of highland Red deer when resting:
a. Usually lie down watching downhill
61. What is the term used to describe the covering of a deer's growing antlers
a. Velvet
62. If firing at a deer 100 yards away with a strong 30 mph wind blowing from left to right and you have to take the shot, where should you aim?
a. 3 inches left
63. You are offered some ammunition hand loaded by a friend which he finds performs well in his rifle. What should you do?
a. Test the ammunition when you next go to the range
64. "Browsing" is the term which describes:
a. Deer feeding on leaves and buds
65. How would you describe a Sika hind's alarm call?
a. A short sharp squeak
66. Which species are Sika deer closest in size to?
a. Fallow deer
67. For the rut the neck of a Fallow buck looks much thicker because?
a. Neck muscles have enlarged
68. If lice are present which is the most likely area in which to notice them on a deer
a. Groin
69. What is the feeding pattern of mature Red stags during the peak of the rut?
a. They feed very little and lose weight
70. What colour are the caudal markings and back stripe on menil Fallow?
a. Lig ht brown
71. Deer are rarely seen to drink. This is because:
a. They get most of the water they need from their food
72. After having bred once, a Red hind is likely to?
a. Occasionally miss a year and not bear a calf
73. A reasonable estimation of the age class of a deer when it has been killed can be gained from:
a. The amount of wear on its teeth
74. Which of the following species most obviously flares out the hair on its rump patch when alarmed?
a. Sika
75. The male of which the following species grows a mane in the rut?
a. Red deer
76. When do most mature Sika stags cast their antlers?
a. March
77. When is the peak of the Fallow rut?
a. October/November
78. What is indicated by a Red deer which watches intently and stamps its foot?
a. It is suspicious at something seen, but not identified
79. If you accidentally plug your barrel with peat or snow, what should you do?
a. Unload all cartridges at once and clean the bore
80. "Pronking" is a gait usually associated with which species of deer?
a. Fallow
81. What colour is the velvet covering the antlers of Japanese Sika stags?
a. Black
82. When taking a shot in the field it is good practice and an aid to accuracy:
a. To place the hand holding the fore-stock between a firm surface and the stock for support
83. What is the main purpose of stalking to within easy range of a deer?
a. To ensure a humane kill
84. If, on a telescopic sight one click of the adjustment knob will move the bullet impact 1 centimetres at 100m.How far will bullet impact move per click at 25 metres?
a. 1/4 centimetre
85. What is the maximum distance that a bullet from a deer rifle might travel if there is no solid backstop?
a. 3500 - 4500 metres
86. Fraying is the term used to describe which activity of a male deer?
a. Rubbing the bark from trees and shrubs with antlers
87. A female deer will not conceive unless:
a. She reaches a certain threshold body weight
88. In the spring Fallow deer are usually found
a. In groups with the does and fawns living separately from the older bucks
89. The word hind is correctly applied to the female of which of the following deer species?
a. Sika
90. If your rifle is zeroed "spot-on" at 100 yards, approximately where will your shots at 200 yards go?
a. A few inches low
91. In order to contain or exclude Red deer an effective fence should be?
a. 2 metres high
92. Scent glands in deer are located:
a. Between hooves, in corner of eye and outside hock
93. What is the spin imparted to a bullet by the rifling intended to do?
a. Improve its stability in flight
94. Which male antlered deer usually cast their antlers first?
a. Old animals
95. What does the call of a rutting Fallow buck on his stand sound like?
a. A rhythmic belching noise repeated continuously for some minutes
96. You are stalking in woodland and spot a deer from a range of about 40 metres behind a large tree. All you can see is the animal's head looking sideways. What is the recommended procedure for taking a shot?
a. Wait until it exposes the chest area and take a heart/lung shot
97. What is included in a territorial display typical of Sika stags in woodland
a. Scoring the bark of trees deeply with their antler points
98. Which of the following statements is true about warble fly in deer?
a. It is common in Red deer in Scotland has been reported in Donegal
99. Compared to Sika deer, Fallow deer have
a. A longer tail
100. Within woodlands, at what range are the majority of deer shot?
a. 0-100 metres
101. In what month is the usual peak of the Red deer rut
a. October
102. In Red deer, a 'Royal' head has:
a. 12 points with 3 in a "crown" on each top
103. Which of the following is NOT true? During the rut Fallow bucks
a. Make scrapes
104. Before you climb into a highseat what should you do:
a. Check the ladder and seat for damage and unload your rifle before climbing into the seat
105. After successfully shooting a deer from a group, what should you do?
a. Stay still until the remaining deer in the immediate area have moved out of sight
106. You are on a steep bank above a deer, which shooting position is likely to be the most comfortable and stable?
a. Sitting
107. You find some conspicuous curiously flattened insects scuttling through the deer's hair. What are they?
a. Keds
108. Which of these species seldom has upper canine teeth when mature?
a. Fallow
109. When do the majority of Red stags normally cast their antlers?
a. March-May
110. Mature Red stags and hinds:
a. Form separate single sex herds except during the rut
111. Describe what a bullet's trajectory is?
a. The path of the bullet in flight
112. If a shot at a deer for no apparent reason misses or does not hit where expected, before shooting at another deer a responsible stalker should do what?
a. Fire carefully at a target to check the rifle is still correctly zeroed
113. Which of the following statements best describes the damage inflicted on trees by Red deer
a. Red deer eat tree bark by chiselling and stripping it off
114. When are most Sika calves born?
a. May/June
115. The use of a stick (or split sticks) as a stalking aid is:
a. Sensible because it makes shooting and spying steadier
116. Which of these external parasites can carry Lyme Disease?
a. Ticks
117. How is a newly-born Red deer calf coloured?
a. Chestnut coloured with dappled white spots
118. After the shot, the deer kicks out with its hind legs and rushes into cover with neck outstretched. Traces of pink and frothy blood are found. Where has it been hit?
a. The lungs
119. When a deer drops instantly to the shot, what should you do?
a. Remain where you are, ready to shoot again if it seems about to rise
120. What type of antler growth does a Red deer "hummel" have?
a. No antlers
121. If you leave oil in your rifle barrel what is likely to happen to your first shot at 100 metres?
a. It will go somewhere other than where the rifle is normally
122. Good, mature, Fallow bucks usually carry antlers which are?
a. Wide and flattened or palmated
123. Which of the following species of deer is considered native to the Ireland i.e. resident in here since the Ice Age?
a. Red
124. To what is the term 'knobber" in Red deer attributed?
a. A young stag yet to grow his first antlers
125. If you have to shoot an injured deer at close range by shooting it again, what should you do?
a. Ensure there is a soft safe backstop behind the deer to stop the bullet
126. To which species are Sika deer most closely related to?
a. Red deer
127. You should check the lymph glands associated with a deer's gut for signs of disease. When you do so healthy lymph glands should be?
a. Coloured grey or pinky brown
128. When stalking deer in thick cover you should:
a. Not take any shots at deer behind bushes or other cover
129. When are the majority of Fallow fawns born?
a. June/July
130. If a Red deer calf is orphaned early in the open hind season might it?
a. Pine away for lack of parental attention
131. When do Red stags usually stand on their hind legs and box with their forefeet?
a. After they have cast their antlers
132. When should the bolt be removed from the rifle whilst stored in the home
a. All the time to avoid its use by an unauthorised person e.g. child/thief
133. How would you describe the rump markings of a "common" variety of Fallow deer?
a. A white disc with black horseshoe-shaped mark round the upper side and a broad black stripe onthe tail
134. Before zeroing your rifle what should you do?
a. Clean the bore and check the bedding and mounting screws are tight
135. In late autumn/early winter which intemal organ is most likely to be encased in fat?
a. Kidneys
136. Someone offers you a rifle with the bolt closed. What should you do?
a. Refuse to accept the rifle until he/she proves that it is unloaded
137. A yeld Red hind is one which has?
a. No calf being suckled that year
138. What is the advantage in using a highseat?
a. All of the answers listed
b. The deer may not smell the stalker
c. The shot is likely to be safer than one taken from ground level
d. The deer may not see the stalker
139. When crawling towards deer with a companion what best describes the recommended condition for the rifles?
a. Only the leader's rifle should be loaded and pointed forwards
140. A mature Sika stag typically:
a. Lives in a stag herd except during the rut
141. In what month do the majority of Fallow bucks usually start to shed their velvet?
a. August
142. The male of which of the following species "roars" during the rut?
a. Red deer
143. Male Fallow have usually left their mother's social group by the age of?
a. 2 years
144. A Sika/Red hybrid often shows traits of both species. Which characteristic if found on an adult Red deer might suggest it is a SikajRed hybrid?
a. Prominent metatarsal gland
145. The male of which deer species usually holds a rutting "stand"?
a. Red deer
146. After a shot, the deer falls down and gets up almost immediately or staggers before rushing away - only a few drops of blood, some short hair and a long splinter of bone is found. Where has it been hit?
a. The leg
147. How is Sika deer feeding behaviour best described?
a. A mixture of browsing and grazing
148. Define what zeroing a rifle and telescopic sight involves?
a. Adjusting your group to coincide with your point of aim at a chosen range
149. The effect of rising numbers of deer in an area is likely to be first noticed through:
a. Reduced diversity of plants at ground level and increased crop damage
150. What is the advantage of a telescopic sight?
a. You can shoot more accurately at all ranges
151. What is the primary natural limiting factor of a healthy deer's life span?
a. It's teeth wearing out so that it cannot feed efficiently
152. The female deer of which species is correctly called a doe as opposed to a hind or cow?
a. Fallow deer
153. A wounded deer is struggling hard but seems unable to run away and could possibly be approached Should it be:
a. Shot again
154. How would you best describe the rump patch of Red deer in winter coat?
a. It is yellowish and runs up onto the back above the tail
155. If it is not possible to bleed and gralloch a deer immediately, what is the maximum time a carcass should be left in hot weather to avoid unacceptable deterioration
a. 30min
156. During the Red deer rut, the most hinds are likely to be held by:
a. The heaviest stags with the best body condition
157. Continental or metric rifle calibre's are often described with two numbers e.g. 6.5 x 57; 7 x 57;7 x 64; - the second figure refers to?
a. The case length in millimetres
158. What is the colour of a Japanese Sika deer's summer coat?
a. Chestnut with white spots and pale belly
159. A safe backstop is required before you take a shot at a deer. What is the best form of backstop?
a. A rising bank of soft ground
160. How do Sika stags mark out territories in the rut?
a. With both wallows and scrapes in which they often urinate and by fraying trees
161. Deer under normal undisturbed conditions will:
a. Feed in cycles of a few hours with peaks at dawn/dusk
162. The top points along the palm of a Fallow buck's antlers are called?
a. Spellers
163. What is the preferred habitat of most species of deer in the Ireland?
a. Woodland margins
164. Carrying a rifle with the firing pin resting on a chambered round is
a. Always dangerous and is an unacceptable practice
165. The adult coat of which of the following species usually displays many white spots in the summer?
a. Fallow deer
166. Which of the following descriptions does NOT apply to deer droppings?
a. Fibrous
167. Obturation is necessary to form an effective seal between the cartridge case and the chamber of your rifle. How might an ineffective seal be indicated
a. Black streaks from the neck down the outside of the
168. The antler casting cycle is mainly governed by which hormone?
a. Testosterone
169. Under what circumstances do female deer usually give birth to their young?
a. Quietly and alone in cover
170. When stalking alone on leased ground, which of the following is most useful to carry:
a. Permission to stalk signed by the landowner/holder of the stalking
171. A pronounced hanging "tassel" and "Adam's apple" are associated with the males of which of the following deer species?
a. Fallow deer
172. A buck whose antlers in season are a spongy mass of velvet (a perruque head) should:
a. Be culled as it may become infected and he will probably die
173. Which colour configuration do Japanese Sika hinds appear to have in winter coat?
a. A drab sooty grey colour all over with paler underbelly
174. After the shot, a deer hunches its back and walks slowly into cover. This is a typical reaction from an animal which has been hit in:
a. The gut
175. Which deer gives a repeated rising and falling whistle in the rut?
a. Sika
176. Bovine Tuberculosis is a notifiable disease - the most common symptoms are:
a. Infected lymph glands at the back of throat, in the gralloch and/or the pluck
177. Which of the following factors are most important for safety in the choice of a stalker's knife
a. Non-slip handle
178. When are most Red deer calves born?
a. Late May to June
179. If your rifle is shooting 3 inches left when you sight it in at 25 yards, at 100 yards where will it shoot?
a. 12 inches left
180. By what age do Fallow deer generally attain a full set of erupted permanent teeth?
a. 24-30 months
181. With which other species will Fallow deer hybridise
a. None of those listed
182. At what distance can Red deer detect human wind-bome scent?
a. Over a mile under certain conditions
183. If you smoke a cigarette while out stalking
a. The smoke will have no affect on the stalk and it can show you wind direction
184. How many points on their antlers do mature Japanese Sika stags normally have?
a. 8 point heads
185. In the daytime during July/August up land Red stags are usually found
a. In stag herds on the high ground
186. What are normally the last deer to change from winter coat into summer coat?
a. Old deer
187. If you suspect that you have wounded a deer and it has disappeared from sight, what should you do?
a. Wait for 10-15 minutes before going forward to the place where it was standing when shot
188. A Fallow buck is killed in autumn. The end of the penis sheath is black/brown and looks like dry cracked earth. What is this a sign of?
a. Normal rutting condition
189. A carcass is found to have many white grubs under the skin along its back. What are these likely to be?
a. Warble fly larvae
190. What is the general movement pattern of open hill Red deer?
a. They move to lower ground during the hours of darkness
191. Why do deer ruminate?
a. It is essential to their digestion
192. How are deer wallows best described?
a. Muddy and often scented with urine
193. The nasal bot fly parasite:
a. Causes the deer persistent irritation and discomfort
194. Which male deer sometimes shed "milky tears" during the rut
a. Sika
195. Wallowing by Red deer:
a. Is done by both stags and hinds
196. The metatarsal gland on the outer side of the hock of a mature Japanese Sika deer is:
a. Conspicuous, 2 inch long and white or pale grey in colour
197. The complete permanent dentition of a Fallow deer consists of how many teeth?
a. 32
198. On which coat do wild Sika deer have readily visible white spots?
a. Summer coats only
199. When feeding on the open hill Red deer:
a. Keep their heads into the wind
200. What is the definition of the term "headspace?
a. The distance between the closed bolt face and a datum point on the chambered cartridge case
201. A deer which has a pronounced "U" or "V" shaped pale line across its brows and frowns when it looks at you is likely to be what?
a. A Sika

ezra_

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

Speaking of boycotts. If no range allowed them the use of their facilities they'd be in a fix ............... just a thought

Isn't Midlands the only range that can accommodate the course, given it is full bore, long range shooting?

Walter Mittys Brother

Speaking of boycotts. If no range allowed them the use of their facilities they'd be in a fix ............... just a thought

Grizzly 45

Another question should be to all these HCAP proponents..Have you passed your own HCAP exam?If not , why not?So if you are claiming exemption because of your "experience of X number of years stalking"..Then that exemption has to apply to others of the same time experience too.

dto001

Looks like they are not happy about the petition but its a free country for now apparently!!! but it only has 280 signatures so far. GET SIGNING :D
and apparently the petition "appears to be based on a fear of regulation which will deter new comers to the sport but this is unfounded as analysis of the DHL will demonstrate" yes there are new comers to the sport but there is no mandatory certification so how is this a demonstration of how new comers will react?
As has been said numerous times I am not opposed to learning even paying paying for this course IF the money is being returned to the sport for funding etc but I am opposed to people trying to make quick and easy money by making something mandatory. Why not put it too a vote of all hunters in all the organisations?
If it can be proved to me that this will curb Poaching, reduce bad practices and over all be good for the sport(and stay this way) then No problems I will gladly support it but until then I will stay opposed to this!!!!