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#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

Hooks Golf Handicap

One side of the argument is that it empowers the victim to come forward, the ground swell of public opinion seems to be behind them.

The other side is the undermining the accused right to a fair defense.

What says Boards ?, a good thing or a bad thing.

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LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nope. Not avoiding your point. TBH I didn't see your point in raising the US, and spoke about the US being stranger than, say, Europe.

You're suggesting that the constant approaches by men towards women can become annoying, and I'm sure that's true. For others, they might enjoy the attention. You're trying to paint all women as being tired of the attention they receive...

As for people behaving like me (I just love your negative perception of how I meet women), Spain and Italy have very strong cultures where women are approached anywhere. Same with my experiences in Eastern Europe and Asia. Doesn't seem to bother them much. At least, while i have been politely turned down there, I have never received any strong negative reactions.

My point in raising the US is that it's a society (at least in NYC) Where a significant number of men cold approach women like you do. I can't say that all women find this inappropriate. But I know my sister and her friends (who are not feminists and found it funny at first) all grew to hate this because it's constant.

Whether you think American society is weird is beside the point. They don't know if these men have strange political views (or whatever problem you have with americans). They just don't want to be constabtly cracked onto.

And I have heard extremely negative opinions from Mediterranean women on their harassment culture. I don't know about harassment in Asia at all.

I'm sorry but that's just funny. You can apply that reasoning to everything.

Exactly but you seem to be implying above that because these women don't react in an over negative way to you you can conclude it's not a major problem for them. Yet ignore tweets from the likes of brie Larson who clearly aren't happy about it. Do you think she shouted at that airport security guard? Or did she just sigh and move on leaving him thinking "well that was a neutral experience for her because she didn't get angry?"

Your example spoke of a guy who wouldn't stop pestering her though. I've already said that I leave her be if I get a rejection. Different scenario entirely.

The point I was making was not about his behaviour but that how he viewed his behaviour based on her reaction was completely flawed. She didn't shout at him or get angry and very few women will shout out you for what you do. You cannot conclude from that that it's not a negative experience for them.

I have absolutely no idea what's going on in her head even if she accepts my advances and agrees to go for a coffee with me. Saying that you can know is the height of arrogance.

That's being completely obtuse. Of course you would conclude that a woman who agrees to go to coffee with you is not upset about your approach. Whereas a woman who rejects you and you immediately leave you can make no conclusions. Trying to turn this into a philosophical "nobody knows what anybody else is really thinking" is ridiculous.

Perhaps she was annoyed by my approaching her. I still didn't harass her. If you go around always afraid that you're annoying, you'll lead a very lonely life. The only thing you can do, is make the approach, be nice (regardless of the reaction), and not behave like a dick.

That's not the only thing you can do. You could not approach her in the first place. Can I ask what your success ratio is? What percentage of women agree to swap numbers or go to coffee?

None. I didn't suggest that it was. You're pushing the angle that someone can always tell by her reaction (by using very specific examples), that body language is a perfectly simple way of knowing whats happening.

I have simply said that body language alone is not reliable.

It is if you get the standard reaction which is one word answers and avoiding eye contact etc.

I asked earlier but I don't think you responded. Can you give an example you've witnessed where a woman who gave one word answers and didn't engage in conversation actually was receptive?

Reports of claims made to the police, the number of claims verified as being true, when this harassment/abuse occured, which category of harassment/abuse it was, and where did it happen. etc.

But we're currently talking about whether women appreciate cold approaches. You expect a woman to go to the police about cold approaches?

Why would I give you examples when you've just said you won't believe me? :rolleyes:

So really the majority of your friends in relationships met through friends or in a bar.....

[Deleted User]

LLMMLL wrote: »

My point in raising the US is that it's a society (at least in NYC) Where a significant number of men cold approach women like you do. I can't say that all women find this inappropriate. But I know my sister and her friends (who are not feminists and found it funny at first) all grew to hate this because it's constant.

No disagreement there. New Yorkers take pride in being insulting to each other, and I didn't enjoy my time working there. I can completely sympathize with your sister for her experiences.

I'll give you an alternative example. My ex is a dancer in a club where she's constantly fending off offers from men and women. She's quite attractive with a very fit body. When she's walking down the street, she will receive loads of attention and guys/girls will approach her even while her current boyfriend is with her. She loves the attention. It reinforces her own image of being beautiful... and if someone bothers her too much, she has no problem asking another guy to intervene to help her... without having to promise anything to the guy. Or she'll flag down a cop or speak to the management in a venue. She knows her rights and won't allow anyone to abuse her. She's had bad experiences in her life but doesn't allow them to rule her or prevent her from enjoying what she likes to do. Fact is that it was my ex that encouraged me to do my first street approaches.

Your sister had the experience of not enjoying that kind of lifestyle. Thats a pity. My ex loves it. Good for her.

I'm not going to suggest that women like my ex or your sister are a majority or minority because I haven't seen any real research into this area to suggest a clear trend. Once I do I will reassess my opinions.

Whether you think American society is weird is beside the point. They don't know if these men have strange political views (or whatever problem you have with americans). They just don't want to be constabtly cracked onto.

Agreed. They shouldn't need to be either. I'm not taking responsibility for every guy out there that approaches a girl. That's unreasonable. I can repeat that I've never had any strong negative responses to my approaches, beyond being ignored or being told they weren't interested.

And I have heard extremely negative opinions from Mediterranean women on their harassment culture. I don't know about harassment in Asia at all.

Whereas I've heard the opposite from female friends and ex's who love the attention they receive. Perhaps because the men there are more flirty and humorous about it without this element of threat or rudeness. I'm not going to suggest that everyone feels that way. I'm sure there are plenty of women who hate being approached...Doesn't change the fact that as long as dating exists, women will be approached by men.

Exactly but you seem to be implying above that because these women don't react in an over negative way to you you can conclude it's not a major problem for them. Yet ignore tweets from the likes of brie Larson who clearly aren't happy about it. Do you think she shouted at that airport security guard? Or did she just sigh and move on leaving him thinking "well that was a neutral experience for her because she didn't get angry?"

I don't use twitter or most social media. I tried them years ago but found most of the content to be rather superficial. Not my kind of environment.

You seem to be looking for a solid mass of people who possess no individuality. That all women hate being approached. That all women dislike the attention they receive. That all men who approach outside of approved venues/methods are creepy. Life is not like that. We are individuals with individual experiences and feelings. Some people will dislike something whereas others won't.

The point I was making was not about his behaviour but that how he viewed his behaviour based on her reaction was completely flawed. She didn't shout at him or get angry and very few women will shout out you for what you do. You cannot conclude from that that it's not a negative experience for them.

Nope. Just as you cannot know that they didn't appreciate the attention from someone who was polite, honest, and behaved like a gentleman.

That's being completely obtuse. Of course you would conclude that a woman who agrees to go to coffee with you is not upset about your approach. Whereas a woman who rejects you and you immediately leave you can make no conclusions. Trying to turn this into a philosophical "nobody knows what anybody else is really thinking" is ridiculous.

Or that she forgot about the encounter the second I left her viewing....? Agreeing to come have coffee with me, and meeting me for a second date is a pretty good indication that she enjoyed the attention. Agreeing to come with me for a coffee, and not meeting for a second date, suggests she wasn't attracted to me or she wasn't interested. Either way didn't harm her in the slightest.

That's not the only thing you can do. You could not approach her in the first place.

Yup.. and since I work alone freelancing from home, prefer to have a small circle of friends, dislike bars/clubs, I can what? Accept being alone for the rest of my life? You really don't understand what being single is like in your 40s.

Can I ask what your success ratio is? What percentage of women agree to swap numbers or go to coffee?

Hmm... Never really thought about a success rate. In the last six months? 60-70% success rate on getting them to join me for coffee or a promise of a meeting on the same day... and probably close to 80% on getting a second date. I don't rush into relationships, and I'm not seeking ONS experiences so I tend to do quite well.

It is if you get the standard reaction which is one word answers and avoiding eye contact etc.

I'll accept you have more experience of that than I have. Usually women will tell me if they're not interested... I guess it's because I'm no threat to them.

I asked earlier but I don't think you responded. Can you give an example you've witnessed where a woman who gave one word answers and didn't engage in conversation actually was receptive?

It's never happened to me. The closest thing to that is being completely ignored and the woman walking right past me.

But we're currently talking about whether women appreciate cold approaches. You expect a woman to go to the police about cold approaches?

No, we're talking about harassment. You're the one trying to link a cold approach with harassment. I don't think it is, except for the manner in which the approach is made, and the objective of the person making the approach.

So really the majority of your friends in relationships met through friends or in a bar.....

Nope. I'll give you a hint. They were all in ways you've suggested that you don't approve of.

Kermit.de.frog

#froglivesmatter

[Deleted User]

LLMMLL wrote: »

Yeah like I said, who cares about anyone else. Psychopaths deserve love too.

Hold on a second. A woman is a psychopath if she approaches a guy at a bus stop with romantic/sexual intent?

Please tell me that you're joking...

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Hold on a second. A woman is a psychopath if she approaches a guy at a bus stop with romantic/sexual intent?

Please tell me that you're joking...

Nah I'm joking about the other poster whos basically talking about himself and how good it is for him and how it adds to his life and he ignores the fact that it may be a negative experience for the women

In fairness to you you're at last trying to convince yourself it's not a negative experience for the women. He doesn't mention them at all.

Fr_Dougal

LLMMLL wrote: »

Not at all. Go look at some of my previous posts and you might see why.

Are you in your 50’s or 60’s? Honest question.

LLMMLL

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Are you in your 50’s or 60’s? Honest question.

Much much younger

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No disagreement there. New Yorkers take pride in being insulting to each other, and I didn't enjoy my time working there. I can completely sympathize with your sister for her experiences.

actually only a tiny number of the guys got abusive when rejected. It's nothing to do with that overt rudeness. She's just tired of having to politely knock back guys constantly.

I'll give you an alternative example. My ex is a dancer in a club where she's constantly fending off offers from men and women. She's quite attractive with a very fit body. When she's walking down the street, she will receive loads of attention and guys/girls will approach her even while her current boyfriend is with her. She loves the attention. It reinforces her own image of being beautiful... and if someone bothers her too much, she has no problem asking another guy to intervene to help her... without having to promise anything to the guy. Or she'll flag down a cop or speak to the management in a venue. She knows her rights and won't allow anyone to abuse her. She's had bad experiences in her life but doesn't allow them to rule her or prevent her from enjoying what she likes to do. Fact is that it was my ex that encouraged me to do my first street approaches.

so your ex has to frequently ask a man to deal with other men for her. Maybe she's fine with living that life but I don't think most women would be.

Your sister had the experience of not enjoying that kind of lifestyle. Thats a pity. My ex loves it. Good for her.

I'm not going to suggest that women like my ex or your sister are a majority or minority because I haven't seen any real research into this area to suggest a clear trend. Once I do I will reassess my opinions.

Well let's be generous and say that it's 50/50. Would it not bother you that you have a 50% chance of making someone days worse?

Let's say I can non sexually compliment a co worker. Male or female. Something about how nice their new shirt was. If I felt that 50% would be made uncomfortable by that, I just wouldn't do it. Even if the other 50% would love it. I know you supposedly ignore Twitter but this whole thread is about a significant number of women posting their negative experiences online. Go take a read. You may get a better idea of how many women are enjoying your advances.

Agreed. They shouldn't need to be either. I'm not taking responsibility for every guy out there that approaches a girl. That's unreasonable. I can repeat that I've never had any strong negative responses to my approaches, beyond being ignored or being told they weren't interested.

You don't have to take responsibility for them. You are one of them. And do you really believe a woman is going to give a strong negative reaction. They all know the minute they do the guy will. Play the "I was just being friendly card".

Whereas I've heard the opposite from female friends and ex's who love the attention they receive. Perhaps because the men there are more flirty and humorous about it without this element of threat or rudeness. I'm not going to suggest that everyone feels that way. I'm sure there are plenty of women who hate being approached...Doesn't change the fact that as long as dating exists, women will be approached by men.

Well I'm very surprised because I've never heard the Mediterranean street come on culture being portrayed as playful and friendly. The compete opposite as a mtteR of fact.

You seem to be looking for a solid mass of people who possess no individuality. That all women hate being approached. That all women dislike the attention they receive. That all men who approach outside of approved venues/methods are creepy. Life is not like that. We are individuals with individual experiences and feelings. Some people will dislike something whereas others won't.

Not at all. But like I said above, if I thought i was bothering a significant number of people with my behaviour I'd stop it.

Yup.. and since I work alone freelancing from home, prefer to have a small circle of friends, dislike bars/clubs, I can what? Accept being alone for the rest of my life? You really don't understand what being single is like in your 40s.

The difference is you have a choice. The women you approach unfortunateky can't choose to not be approached.

No, we're talking about harassment. You're the one trying to link a cold approach with harassment. I don't think it is, except for the manner in which the approach is made, and the objective of the person making the approach.

We (me and you) are clearly talking about the cold approach for multiple.posts now. It's not just me harping on about it in a vacuum. All your posts for the last few pages have been about the cold approach.

LLMMLL

https://www.elitedaily.com/life/culture/italian-street-harassment/1820102

Here's one experience of the Mediterranean "friendly and playful" street culture that women love.so much

take everything

RayM wrote: »

How fucking old are you? Twelve?

Hit a nerve.
Jaysus

[Deleted User]

LLMMLL wrote: »

so your ex has to frequently ask a man to deal with other men for her. Maybe she's fine with living that life but I don't think most women would be.

It really is interesting the way you read other peoples posts. That's nothing close to what I said.

Well let's be generous and say that it's 50/50. Would it not bother you that you have a 50% chance of making someone days worse?

Why make it generous? Keep it as I posted it.

And I can't see why I need to answer that question. Perhaps flip it around and consider it from the angle of improving her life a little by meeting someone who respects her?

Let's say I can non sexually compliment a co worker. Male or female. Something about how nice their new shirt was. If I felt that 50% would be made uncomfortable by that, I just wouldn't do it. Even if the other 50% would love it. I know you supposedly ignore Twitter but this whole thread is about a significant number of women posting their negative experiences online. Go take a read. You may get a better idea of how many women are enjoying your advances.

Lol. These women aren't posting about me. I'm still in contact with all of the women I've dated since I returned to Ireland, and they've remained good friends. And I have read quite a number of the posts which have been reposted to forums on the internet.

"this whole thread is about a significant number of women posting their negative experiences online" without any verification of validity, when it occurred, where it occurred, etc.

You made a statement that I sought to minimize their experiences. I haven't. I've simply asked for verification. If a group of guys posted on twitter or boards about sexual abuse by female Gardai without any evidence to support their claims, they would be ignored or ridiculed as nutjobs. But if a group of women do it, then all these vague claims must be believed... If not, then you're somehow minimizing or refusing all such claims. Doesn't make sense.

You don't have to take responsibility for them. You are one of them. And do you really believe a woman is going to give a strong negative reaction. They all know the minute they do the guy will. Play the "I was just being friendly card".

one of "them". As I said. You see blocks of people. Black and white. Nothing in-between.

Well I'm very surprised because I've never heard the Mediterranean street come on culture being portrayed as playful and friendly. The compete opposite as a mtteR of fact.

get out and meet more people... although that might be difficult for you considering you don't know if your conversation is annoying them.

Not at all. But like I said above, if I thought i was bothering a significant number of people with my behaviour I'd stop it.

Ahh.. all your communication is done online or through apps?

Your own logic supports the idea that any interaction you have with another person might cause them annoyance or such.

The difference is you have a choice. The women you approach unfortunateky can't choose to not be approached.

She can easily refuse to communicate in return, continue walking, stop for a second and say she's busy... Gosh.. what a terrible existance! To have to stop long enough to reject an advance.

I guess you would like all salespeople to never speak to people... women will just love missing all those offers in shops/street because there might be a possibility that some women might be offended by the salesperson.

We (me and you) are clearly talking about the cold approach for multiple.posts now. It's not just me harping on about it in a vacuum. All your posts for the last few pages have been about the cold approach.

Nope. Still talking about harassment of women. It's just that you have been focusing on my approaching women and your belief that most women have no desire to ever be approached outside of your approved venues or introductions.

BTW you still didn't really answer about your belief that women are psychopaths if they chat to a guy at a bus stop...

LLMMLL

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And I can't see why I need to answer that question. Perhaps flip it around and consider it from the angle of improving her life a little by meeting someone who respects her?

Really? I don't think you really respect them. You've basically said you could see how it could bother a woman to be approached. You seem aware of #metoo and that some women have posted that they're bothered by cold approaches. You se to have accepted that I know women who are annoyed at being approached even when the guy is polite. But as far as I can tell you don't give the slightest damn whether youve personally bothered a woman with your polite approach. You don't seem respectful to me at all.

Lol. These women aren't posting about me. I'm still in contact with all of the women I've dated since I returned to Ireland, and they've remained good friends. And I have read quite a number of the posts which have been reposted to forums on the internet.

Yes they are. The example from brie Larson the guy wasn't persistent or harassing. Just like you. She was still pissed off about it.

"this whole thread is about a significant number of women posting their negative experiences online" without any verification of validity, when it occurred, where it occurred, etc.

Well maybe some of them are lieing about being cold approached. As a heavy cold approached yourself I'd think you'd be more likely to believe them.

You made a statement that I sought to minimize their experiences. I haven't. I've simply asked for verification. If a group of guys posted on twitter or boards about sexual abuse by female Gardai without any evidence to support their claims, they would be ignored or ridiculed as nutjobs. But if a group of women do it, then all these vague claims must be believed... If not, then you're somehow minimizing or refusing all such claims. Doesn't make sense.

I was talking about cold approaches which is what you and me are discussing, we never discussed any other kind of harassment. The only data available in that case is self reporting. And why I think you're minimizing their experiences is that you seem to be aware that this bother many women but don't really seem to care.

get out and meet more people... although that might be difficult for you considering you don't know if your conversation is annoying them.

Probably shouldn't take a dig at my social life one post after saying you worked at home and didn't have many friends ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ahh.. all your communication is done online or through apps?

Not at all. Basically I see you as the kind of people who play music out of their phones on the bus. They don't really care if they're bothering other people as long as they're happy.

Your own logic supports the idea that any interaction you have with another person might cause them annoyance or such.

Sure any behaviour can annoy people and I try to minimize where possible. For instance I know people don't like me dropping heavy weights in the gym so I avoid it as best I can. Some people think that being considerate of others is a good thing.

She can easily refuse to communicate in return, continue walking, stop for a second and say she's busy... Gosh.. what a terrible existance! To have to stop long enough to reject an advance.

Well many women find it annoying and constant. So again you're minimizing their experiencEs.

BTW you still didn't really answer about your belief that women are psychopaths if they chat to a guy at a bus stop...

I said nah which means no. Is that not clear enough that I don't think they're psychopaths. I also said I was making a joke about that PUA poster and his me me me post. Was that not clear enough?

anewme

What is p u a?

backspin.

anewme wrote: »

What is p u a?

pick up artist

RayM

take everything wrote: »

Hit a nerve.
Jaysus

Just sounded like something a very fragile 12-year-old boy would say. The idea that there are "proper" and "improper" men, based on your own shallow idea of what masculinity entails.

You whine about the "constant vilification of male sexual desire", and then go on to vilify male sexual desire - implying that a man couldn't possibly express feminist views unless he was trying to ingratiate himself with women. People like you do men a far greater disservice than feminists ever will.

Outlaw Pete

anewme wrote: »

What is p u a?

Sweetemotion

RayM wrote: »

Just sounded like something a very fragile 12-year-old boy would say. The idea that there are "proper" and "improper" men, based on your own shallow idea of what masculinity entails.

You whine about the "constant vilification of male sexual desire", and then go on to vilify male sexual desire - implying that a man couldn't possibly express feminist views unless he was trying to ingratiate himself with women. People like you do men a far greater disservice than feminists ever will.

You may think this attitude may get you the ride RayM.

All it will do is leave you in the friend zone for ever and ever. While they cry on your shoulder saying, why can't I find a man like you and then hand you her handbag to hold.

anewme

There are a lot of people on this thread who obviously live in a vacuum, with no idea of normal day to day life is.

RayM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

You may think this attitude may get you the ride RayM.

All it will do is leave you in the friend zone for ever and ever. While they cry on your shoulder saying, why can't I find a man like you and then hand you her handbag to hold.

That post says a lot about you, tbh. Quite the nasty individual, aren't you?

Sweetemotion

RayM wrote: »

That post says a lot about you, tbh. Quite the nasty individual, aren't you?

Just trying to help you.

I'll ask all the straight women on this thread a quick question.

Would you pick a feminine guy or masculine guy as your partner?

pconn062

A member of our wedding band was recently sexually assaulted.

At a gig we did recently a group of people dancing near the stage thought it would be funny to "pretend" to grab the genitals of one of our members while they performed. Several people in the group tried this, while the rest of the group encouraged them and laughed. Then one person went too far and actually grabbed their genitals, again to the delight of the members of the group. Our colleague was visibly upset and when they told the group to go away they got verbally abusive and defensive. This happened in front of many onlookers (men and women) who found the whole situation frankly hilarious, laughing as it occurred.
Our colleague called over the manager asking that the group be removed after explaining what had happened, but the manager refused, claiming it was just harmless fun. The group then remained for most of the night, and before leaving, spat some drink in the direction of our colleague.

Our colleague is a man and the group were all women.

This post is not meant to spark a men vs women debate, but just to highlight how commonplace sexual assault can be (to both sexes) and how easily it can be dismissed by people in positions of authority. In the managers mind, it can't be sexual assault when it happens to a man, just harmless fun.

professore

Unfortunately a lot of women like an asshole. That's why vampire and 50 shades films are so madly popular. Also probably explains why sexual harassment is so common - it gets you laid. If it didn't it would have disappeared from the gene pool long ago. Being a nice guy gets you abuse and ridicule from a lot of women.

And the elephant in the room is that these monster men were largely raised and educated by women - in moat cases would defend their sons bad behaviour to the ends of the earth.

So as with most things, it's not as simple as it seems.

hatrickpatrick

LLMMLL wrote: »

I'm not talking about situations where you get talking to a woman at a picnic randomly. You could easily get talking to a male colleague at a work event randomly. If you're standing at a bus stop, the bus is late , you make a comment to the woman next to you about the bus being late, you get chatting and things move from there. That's all fine. Could easily happen with two.men having a nice chat while waiting for the bus.

The example I gave of a female friend being harassed a few weeks ago was a guy approached her and said "I think you're beautiful can I have your number". He then continued bothering her after she said no but that initial approach is creepy.

I wonder how many of your and the other poster who met his gf at an airports friends made that kind of approach? I'm betting they all got talking in a friendly manner to these women over some random comment that they might easily have made to another male.

This is a very strange comment - you're saying that the only acceptable way to come on to a woman is to initially hide one's intentions and only behave as one would if interacting with a guy? I can't quite get my head around this, it's bizarre. There are a great many people - both male and female - who greatly appreciate direct communication without unnecessary beating around the bush. Now, in Ireland, as a society, we tend to unnecessarily beat around the bush all the time with pointless small talk because we're taught that this is somehow polite - but I can tell you that it irritates just as many people as it pleases. There are plenty of people out there who would prefer that others be upfront from the beginning about their intentions. I for one certainly appreciate it. One of exes was the same. In fact, one of her pet peeves was lads who would make a coy, "testing the waters" kind of approach like you describe instead of just coming out with their interest at the beginning.

Basically if you approach a woman going about her daily business with he intention of coming onto her it's creepy.

In your opinion. A vast number of men and women would massively disagree with people.

Have you never met a woman (or indeed a man) who specifically fantasised about being "swept off their feet" in this exact manner? I could type out a looooong list of names of people I know who have. For some people, directness and cockiness are attractive - and conversely, indirectness, shyness and coyness are very much not.

To put this another way - for every guy who complains that a woman seemed interested and then "friend zoned" him, I've seen or heard a woman complain that a guy seemed to approach her platonically at first and only later dropped the fact that he was attracted to her, which she regarded as a massive waste of her time - when she thought she might be making a new friend or social contact only to discover that it was just a slow-burning lead-in to a chat-up attempt.

RayM

professore wrote: »

Unfortunately a lot of women like an asshole.

I'm not sure that's true. Although reading this thread, I can't help but applaud some people's efforts.

hatrickpatrick

professore wrote: »

Unfortunately a lot of women like an asshole. That's why vampire and 50 shades films are so madly popular.

I don't think this is really fair, to be honest. Being sexually submissive or even masochistic doesn't necessarily mean being attracted to assholes or being a pushover outside the bedroom, and being sexually dominant or even sadistic in the bedroom doesn't necessarily mean being an asshole outside it.

In fact, to be honest, I've generally found that one's sexual personality can often be a diametric opposite of one's everyday personality - have you never met or heard of a quiet, shy person in a group being the kinkiest of them, or the high-powered, driven executive who likes to be tied up? These examples are so common that they're practically character tropes at this stage.

hatrickpatrick

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Oh f*CK off. I hate this 'oblivious' ****.
I'm just reading an article from an Irish woman on why she used #metoo. She said in her primary school, the principal would call them up one at a time to the desk to recite something, and that each of the students spent the time trying to dodge his fingers under the desk.
This has happened to all of us, touching, not looking, not talking. I refuse to live in a world where this happens anymore or to listen to entitled men who dismiss it out of hand.
The time has come where women will no longer be treated the way they were.

Everyone in this thread would agree that this is a horrific and totally unacceptable example of sexual assault.

Surely then you would agree that people using #MeToo to talk about the time they got asked out at what they deemed to be an inappropriate moment are the ones who are hijacking this very serious issue and opening it up to the kinds of argument we're having in this thread?

hatrickpatrick

LLMMLL wrote: »

I think you're pretending you don't know the difference between a normal approach and a creepy one.

Say this guy arrives at his work picnic. There are 30 people there spread out maybe in little subgroups. He marches straight over to the best looking woman who he's never met before and introduces himself and starts flirting. Creepy. And I'm betting that's not the way it happened.

Why should that be considered creepy? This is something that happens regularly in various social scenarios, from nightclubs to house parties. Why should people change their social behaviours just because they happen to work with the people involved?

I think you're honestly mixing up "creepy" and "not the norm in repressed, pathologically self-conscious Catholic Ireland", to be honest. I really do. Approaching strangers and flirting with them because you like the look of them is how dating is done in pretty much every other country I've ever visited. Ireland is bizarre by Western standards in terms of how much beating around the bush we do in social situations - not just in sexual ones, in all social situations.

I for one regard this as a prime reason so many young Irish people feel the need to get drunk before they ask someone out - we're conditioned to be so self-conscious and indirect in our social behaviours that it takes a serious lowering of inhibitions for people to act on their instincts. This type of repression is not a positive thing, psychologically - it's something this country badly needs to deal with, in my view, if we're ever going to sort out our substance abuse issues.

One eyed Jack

RayM wrote: »

I'm not sure that's true. Although reading this thread, I can't help but applaud some people's efforts.

Ouch!!

I have to agree with prof on this one Ray, he said 'a lot', not most, not all, but a lot.

However I would suggest that like prof says - it's really not as simple as that either. It depends upon factors like age and maturity (or lack thereof), socioeconomic circumstances, upbringing and their exposure either to heathy or unhealthy relationships and role models in their lives.

There's no amount of social media advocacy will change a persons attitude to the polar opposite of their lived experience, it just doesn't happen, because people for the most part gravitate online towards places where they know their beliefs will be reinforced, where their beliefs and their attitudes won't be questioned, where they won't be forced to question their beliefs, attitudes and behaviours.

Surreptitious

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Just trying to help you.

I'll ask all the straight women on this thread a quick question.

Would you pick a feminine guy or masculine guy as your partner?

I'll ONLY go out with him if he wears a dress and make up.

anewme

professore wrote: »

Unfortunately a lot of women like an asshole. That's why vampire and 50 shades films are so madly popular. Also probably explains why sexual harassment is so common - it gets you laid. If it didn't it would have disappeared from the gene pool long ago. Being a nice guy gets you abuse and ridicule from a lot of women.

And the elephant in the room is that these monster men were largely raised and educated by women - in moat cases would defend their sons bad behaviour to the ends of the earth.

So as with most things, it's not as simple as it seems.

I'm a woman and can safely say they don't.

The majority of women I know thought 50 shades was, well, fifty shades of ****.

EL James was a woman whose ambition was to buy a Passat, so let's just leave it there.

the p u a people (did not know what that was till tonight) will only attract similar (empty vessels)

You've seen the posts by the guy labelled as a p u a, he was thick as pig **** quite frankly, i would worry for anyone falling for the " playful conversation" it sounds mind numbingly boring. It was clear he'd had a complete sense of humour bypass. He'd have to consult the manual to find out what his own name is.

I suppose what I'm saying is; there's someone for everyone.

What's the new Dogs Trust Ad? Find your special someone.

I know a guy who was the typical nice guy. He's finished well, personally, Professionally and financially.

You just need to play the long game.