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The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

Sonny678

Firstly Congratulations to the Dubs. Dublin are the team of the decade. One of the All time great teams. Their achievements will go down in the history books. They are a credit to their county and clubs. This is a golden era for Dublin football.

However there those seem to be allot of people trying to rewrite history and downplay Kerrys 75 to 86 achievements. In order to prove Dublin are the best. I think allot of supporters who started following the game in the last 10 or 15 years are pushing this idea that Dublin are the greatest. They probaly dont know the achievements of Down or past Cavan teams. And never heard of Downs Sean O Neill or Cavans Higgins.

However the facts do not back this up. By saying the facts is not downgrading Dublins wins. They have achieved greatness. But facts are facts.
1 Kerry team of 70s and 80s. Did three great things 1 Win All.Ireland in 1975 with one of the youngest teams ever to win Sam ? by beating one of the greatest teams ever..2 They won a 4 in a row between 78 to 81. 3 They won 3 in a row 84 85 86.

They also had some of the greatest players of all time playing in their chosen positions. This Dublin team have one player playing that could be said to be the best ever in his position. Eg Stephen Cluxton is the greatest goalkeeper ever. Kerry had Jack O Se the greatest midfielder ever and possibly the greatest footballer ever. They had Pat Spillane the greatest number 12 in the history of the game . And Mickey Sheedy the greatest number 15 in the history of the game. They also had Paudi O Se possibly the greatest number 5 ever. While John O Keefe Ogie Moran Ger Power John Egan Bomber Liston are some of the greatest players of the modern era.

Kerry had to face tougher opposition then Dublin. Kerry had to beat one of the greatest teams ever, the Dublin team 74 -77. This Dublin have not faced an All time great team. That is a fact. Also every year Kerry faced an excellent Cork team who were a top Division 1 team and where regularly in the top 3 in country. Dublin have not had to face top Division 1 team in their provience since the early noughties. Also in ther 70s you had very good Meath and Armagh teams.

In the west you had a brillant Roscomon team ,one of the greatst teams to come west of the Shannon in the last 50 years. A brillant defence backboned by the Great Harry Keegan and at midfield one of the greatest talent to ever cross the Shannon , the late great Dermot Earley senior. That Roscomon team won 5 Connachts and Roscommons first league and gave the greatest team ever one of their toughest finals. You also had a brillant Offaly team led by the most naturally talented footballer ever, Matt Connor. Offaly 82 was a brillant team. In the mid 80s Tyrone and Monaghan had two excellent teams. Which in any other era would have won an All Ireland. The Monaghan team 85 is Monaghans greatest team ever. And the Tyrone 84- 86 was up to that point Tyrone greatst team ever led by warriors like Donaghy John Lynch Eugene McKenna and Frank McGuigan. That team was a much superior outfit to the current Tyrone team. Would any current footballer be as brillant as the great Frank McGuigan.

In comparison Dublin have been great but so many counties are hitting record low levels.

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blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

Again nitpicking what I say. I write a long rambling message. And Dave takes out magnifying glass and look for some inaccuracies or errors.
It's either a one line smart comment or nit picking one or two little errors in an essay
Still not one Dublin contributer has responded to my point that Dublins last great performance in a final was 1977. 12 finals since and counting.

I already demolished your argument about great performances, pointing out the number of scores from play as an indicator.

The 1977 All-Ireland final was akin to playing Westmeath in a Leinster semi-final. That Armagh team was rubbish.

Dublin's last great performance in a final was last Sunday. Two points down with eight minutes to go and they weren't beaten. You have spent many posts lauding the Meath team of 87-91, like this Dublin team they were never beaten, but while you give them credit, you won't give Dublin credit.

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

Kerry 2014 poor is not because of Dublin record it's because they are the only kerry team in the last 100 years to not win two All Irelands . They are not considered a great Kerry teams. These are great teams from Kerry

00s Kerry team won 5 All Irelands
70 and 80 kerry team win 8 All Irelands
69 70 Kerry do the double with Mick O Connell Dwyer
They are great Kerry teams
Then you have great Kerry teams in the 40s and 50s and
And 4 in row record breaking kerry team from 29 to 32.

It's about winning lots and lots of All.Irelands with lots and lots of great players. Which kerry do regularly. It their genius calling card.

2014 team does not compare to a 8 in row 80s team , a 5 Sam's in 00s, a double in 6os or 4 in a row in 30s. Simple as.

Why Cork haven't won Munster few times . You might have not noticed but Cork are at their lowest since the 1950s. Cork are now div 2 team. They were beaten by Tipp last year. The last time that happened was the fifties.

Cork have talent. But something is wrong in Cork football. For the first time in living memory in the last few year's Cork are not a divsion 1 team a top 5 or 6 team. Cork are always strong . But since 2010 Cork have been piss poor.

How many finals have they won. Semi finals have they reached. They won a few leagues but once Colohan left Cork football has slipped every year to where it is now, a new low.

There is lack of confidence and belief in Cork football. Have you not seen them play in recent years. Kerry since the bad loses in the 00s have Cork in a mental vice grip. Cork are firmly under the toe of Kerry this decade. They have made one bad manager choice after another. Do you remeber Cubert. Do you remeber Healy . Me neither. They should have given John Cleary but they fecked up..does that answer your question.

Your whole argument against Dublin rests on your belief that the 2014 Kerry team and the other recent vintages are poor Kerry teams. When it is pointed out that Cork can't beat them (and neither can Tipperary or Clare who beat previous poor Kerry teams) you argue that Cork are also very poor. You then go on to say that Mayo have been poor because they haven't won an All-Ireland.

It is a completely circular argument, all the rest are poor so Dublin mustn't be great. Yet, the standard of football being played is higher than ever. The strike for goal by Con O'Callaghan, letting the ball drop from his left hand and striking with the outside of his right foot, to put the ball past David Clarke, at the speed he was travelling at, is a level of skill that is beyond anything produced by the Kerry team of the 70s/80s.

I think you are wrong about Kerry, Cork and Mayo. The Cork team won an All-Ireland in 2010, yet they haven't been able to come out of Munster since. That shows the Kerry team of this era must be really strong. The fact that Kerry team has lost five times to Dublin must mean the Dublin team is great. Ditto this Mayo team reaching an unprecedented seven semi-finals must be a great Mayo team but has only beaten Dublin once, demonstrating Dublin's greatness. It is a similar circular argument to yours.

Sonny678

blanch152 wrote:

I already demolished your argument about great performances, pointing out the number of scores from play as an indicator.

I have explained myself 7 or 8 times. But no one listening. Instead they are making up what I said.
I have never once not said this is not a great Dublin team. Let me make it clear

THIS DUBLIN TEAM IS ONE OF THE GREATEST TEAMS OF ALL TIME.
THEY ARE BEST TEAM OF THE LAST 3O YEARS.
CLUXTON IS THE GREATEST GOALKEEPER EVER
DUBLIN HAVE THE BEST DEFENDERS IN IRELAND AT THE MOMENT
JIM GALVIN IS THE BEST MANAGER OF HIS GENERATION.
FLYNN IS ONE OF THE BEST WING FORWARDS I HAVE SEEN PLAY
CONNOLLY IS THE MOST TALENTED DUBLIN PLAYER EVER
BROGAN IS ONE OF THE BEST DUBLIN FORWARDS EVER
ONLY HEFFERNAN OR KEAVENEY HAS BEEN BETTER.
THEY HAVE DISPLAYED SOME BRILLANT PERFORMANCES IN LEINSTER FINALS SEMI FINAL LEAGUE FINALS
SOME GREAT SWASHBUCKLING FOOTBALL
The thing I Just have is 3 or 4 issues regarding this Dublin team
Is that clear I have actually said the above numerous times in the last 18 pages.
Is that clear now

Sonny678

blanch152 wrote:

Yet, the standard of football being played is higher than ever. .

This is where I disagree I don't believe the standard of football being played is higher then ever before. Dublin are playing a high standard football. But so many great counties are in their worst state for decades eg Meath Down Derry Armagh Laois Cork and til recently Kildare and Galway.

Sonny678

blanch152 wrote:

I think you are wrong about Kerry, Cork and Mayo. The Cork team won an All-Ireland in 2010, yet they haven't been able to come out of Munster since. That shows the Kerry team of this era must be really strong. The fact that Kerry team has lost five times to Dublin must mean the Dublin team is great. Ditto this Mayo team reaching an unprecedented seven semi-finals must be a great Mayo team but has only beaten Dublin once, demonstrating Dublin's greatness. It is a similar circular argument to yours.

Yes Kerry are a great team in THIS DECADE
Yes Mayo are a great team in THIS DECADE
But when I compare this kerry team to other great Kerry teams it is a poor kerry team.
And when I compare this decade to other decade in my opinion and it's my opinion this decade is poor only for the greatness of this Dublin team

I have seen every leinster final and All Ireland in Croke Park since 1982

Sonny678

blanch152 wrote:

. Yet, the standard of football being played is higher than ever. The strike for goal by Con O'Callaghan, letting the ball drop from his left hand and striking with the outside of his right foot, to put the ball past David Clarke, at the speed he was travelling at, is a level of skill that is beyond anything produced by the Kerry team of the 70s/80s.

Cleary you have never seen the greatest goal in a final ever scored by Jack O Se v Offaly in 81
Are the goal scored by Pat Spillane in 1986 final v Tyrone
Or the point set up by Michael Donnellan in 98 final which was voted a few years ago on Tng by the public as the greatest GAA moment ever.
Or the goal scored by Cavanan in the 05 final
Or the points scores by Fitzgerald in 97 final
Our the moment of genius by Sheedy in 78 final.
Or the goals by Ollie Murphy and Joe Kavanagh in 1999 final
Check them out on you tube

Sonny678

Dublin showed great tenacity and determination to win the final on Sunday. It's showed a fighting spirit. And Dublin have displayed this in all their finals.

My issue is they didn't win one out of 5 finals comprehensively like they did v Tyrone in great style in the the semi final or against Dublin in leinster final.
Even win by 5 or 6 points where the teams play well all over the field

Win a final in style. Like Barcelona win European cups or like Brazil 1970 World cup final.
Or like Cody's Kilkenny or kerry did in 78 79 81 finals.
Or like Galway in 2001.

That's my issue why I dont

Sonny678

My issue why I dont consider this Dublin team the greatest team ever or in my top 3 or 4 greatest teams ever
Again they are one of the greatest teams ever in my opinion 5th or 6th in the list of great teams.
But they are the greatest team of the last 30 years. And have played some outstanding football and have some great character and a never say die spirit. I would love to have a Meath team half as good as the current Dublin team.

Sonny678

If they win 5 in a row or 9 All Irelands they are the then the greatest. So they might become the greatest yet.

But I still think they are an All time great team in not a great era when I compare to other eras and teams I have seen and heard abour. ANd when I see so many great counties in such a dreadful state also.
I will not change my mind on that.no way

Also I think the blanket defence has destroyed defending players can no longer defend. Only Mayo and Dublin have great defenders these days.

Sonny678

Again Dublin are one of the greatest teams ever just not in my top 3 or 4

Is that clear to everyone

Also I believe fitness should not be sign of greatness. Fitter players today don't mean they are better player. Kicking a ball over the bar from 50 metres or scoring goal or picking a pass with vision cannot be trained a player either has natural ability or not.
People are to quick to dismiss great teams from the past way to quickly and I don't get this at all.
If Sean Purcell was around today he still would be called the master

Boxing fans say Ali is the greatest Soccer fans say Pele is the greatst
Baseball fans say Babe Ruth is the greatest
Hurling fans say Christy Ring is the greatest fans
Gaelic football fans should acknowledge great teams and player from past . We are all standing on the shoulder of past gaelic football gaints.

ThunbergsAreGo

Sonny678 wrote: »

Again Dublin are one of the greatest teams ever just not in my top 3 or 4

Is that clear to everyone

And i dont think anyone will argue with that

If we all had the same opinion it would be boring!

The Talking Bread

Sonny678 wrote: »

blanch152 wrote:

Yet, the standard of football being played is higher than ever. .

This is where I disagree I don't believe the standard of football being played is higher then ever before. Dublin are playing a high standard football. But so many great counties are in their worst state for decades eg Meath Down Derry Armagh Laois Cork and til recently Kildare and Galway.

Oh come on. The skill level and execution of scores, especially under intensity and opposition setup far outweighs that of yesteryears.

Shurimgreat

Sonny678 wrote: »

This is where I disagree I don't believe the standard of football being played is higher then ever before. Dublin are playing a high standard football. But so many great counties are in their worst state for decades eg Meath Down Derry Armagh Laois Cork and til recently Kildare and Galway.

It comes down to resources.
Everything is loaded in Dublins favour, whereas everything is loaded against most other counties, particularly rural counties.
Most young professionals work in cities, particularly Dublin. They attend college in cities. Collective training with their own counties becomes a nightmare.
No county has a shirt sponsorship deal like AIGs with Dublin. No county has the same spend on player development, on coaches for young players. No county has the same number of young players.
The odds are heavily against all but a few counties.

Two things amaze me.
1. Give that all the odds are stacked against most counties, its amazing so many different counties have won AIs and managed to stay competitive up until recently.
2. Given the huge advantages Dublin have, its amazing they haven't won every single AI in the last 100 years. Just why Dublin was so relatively average up until recently is frankly bizarre. It would be akin to Celtic or Real Madrid being a mid table side who occasionally challenged for the title.

The Talking Bread

5 sentences Sonny. No more dressing up your POV with long rambling essays which are 80 % merely stats.

What is your point about this Dublin team.

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

Dublin showed great tenacity and determination to win the final on Sunday. It's showed a fighting spirit. And Dublin have displayed this in all their finals.

My issue is they didn't win one out of 5 finals comprehensively like they did v Tyrone in great style in the the semi final or against Dublin in leinster final.
Even win by 5 or 6 points where the teams play well all over the field

Win a final in style. Like Barcelona win European cups or like Brazil 1970 World cup final.
Or like Cody's Kilkenny or kerry did in 78 79 81 finals.
Or like Galway in 2001.

That's my issue why I dont

One of the reasons that finals aren't won in style in modern times is that the qualifier system now more or less ensures that the two best teams end up in the final.

The Armagh team that Dublin beat in 1977 arguably wasn't even in the top five teams in the country that year. Some the cheap All-Irelands that Kerry won in the past just wouldn't be possible.

Take 1980 for example. Dublin had 14 men in the Leinster final but were barely beaten by Offaly. If that Dublin team had had a second chance in a qualifier they might have gone on and won the All-Ireland with a full fifteen. As it was, they didn't and the team broke up.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

A mediocre team from today would hammer an All Ireland winning side from the 70s out the gate. This is true in every sport I can think of.

corny

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

A mediocre team from today would hammer an All Ireland winning side from the 70s out the gate. This is true in every sport I can think of.

Very true. I watched the 83 final recently and was shocked at how poor the basic skills were.

ThunbergsAreGo

corny wrote: »

Very true. I watched the 83 final recently and was shocked at how poor the basic skills were.

The Eir classics are great, but highlights the lack of tactics etc.

Nostalgia is a great thing

The Talking Bread

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

A mediocre team from today would hammer an All Ireland winning side from the 70s out the gate. This is true in every sport I can think of.

It beggars belief that it is disputable to some that a team as efficient, professional as well as talented, conditioned and mentally strong as Dublin (or even Mayo) or even Kerry or Tyrone for that matter would beat every winning All Ireland team in the 70s and 80s. Arguably the 90s also.

It is all relative given the evolution of the game but if Kerry 78 stood on Croke Park against Dublin 17, they would be comprehensively beaten.

I hate this comparison between teams in this era to teams in previous decade as the game is completely different. And it is damn obvious to anyone that thinks about logic that pit one against another and the further the chronological span between their era the more likely they will be beaten.

Compare players to a point but again, different level of conditioning, compare the odd execution of the ball, but again different pressure upon same. But comparing teams, meh.

Also worth taking into consideration that players' natural talents are more finely toned these days and whilst you have wonderful footballers in 70s and 80s, footballing intelligence from increased training/competition for places/dedication would lead to less natural players fine tuning their skills more so.
Essentially what I am saying is that there is more balance in individual talents across the panels these days than there would be when you had these masterful standout players in certain teams in decades gone by.
Dublin 17 is a prime example of that balance of talents. Con O Callaghan gave a great interview last night on Newstalk about the level of competition and talent amongst the whole 35 man squad. Obviously, the same 15 will just about emerge but the pressure to maintain standards is on another level. The "B" Dublin team as it were regularly beat Dublin in, in trusting his words, high intensity matches with proper refs during the Summer.

Physical, high intensity sports are very difficult when comparing talents of teams against eras gone by. Some players in that Kerry 70s team may not adapt to the levels of conditioning, intensity, dedication, the increasing focus on the team element rather than individual talent etc.

It was easier for a good team to win an AI in the 70s than it is for a good team to do so at the minute yet Dublin have won 5 out of 7 since 11 so it is saying something.

mickmackey1

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

A mediocre team from today would hammer an All Ireland winning side from the 70s out the gate. This is true in every sport I can think of.

And a mediocre team from the 2050s would hammer the Dubs of today, so your point is meaningless.

The Talking Bread

mickmackey1 wrote: »

And a mediocre team from the 2050s would hammer the Dubs of today, so your point is meaningless.

I think that is the exact point he is making to be fair.

ThunbergsAreGo

mickmackey1 wrote: »

And a mediocre team from the 2050s would hammer the Dubs of today, so your point is meaningless.

Not with the current level of childhood obesity in Ireland

mickmackey1

The Talking Bread wrote: »

I think that is the exact point he is making to be fair.

It sounded like he was dissing the lads from the past.

The Talking Bread

mickmackey1 wrote: »

It sounded like he was dissing the lads from the past.

Just comparative standards.

bucketybuck

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Some players in that Kerry 70s team may not adapt to the levels of conditioning, intensity, dedication, the increasing focus on the team element rather than individual talent etc.

People never think deeply enough about this when claiming that great players of the past would be just as good today if they had the same training. Even today the country is littered with talented players who couldn't hack the physical and mental demands of modern day intercounty football, while back in the day I'm sure there were plenty of players at intercounty level who were getting away with hugely destructive personal habits.

Its not as simple as "If the bomber Liston was around today with todays training he still would be a great player", its not nearly as simple as that at all.

mickmackey1 wrote: »

And a mediocre team from the 2050s would hammer the Dubs of today

For that to be true you have to think that the rate of improvement in fitness and training is a straight line on a graph, a constant rate of improvement.

I don't think thats necessarily true at all. There were hugely significant advances in terms of training and fitness over the past 15 years and you can see the results at all levels of the game. But a lot of those concepts and techniques are known now, further improvements are likely to be incremental only.

30 years ago intercounty players were drinking and eating fries before games, a big difference to todays players with their nutritionists and personal training programmes. But do you really think players in 30 years time are going to look back and laugh at todays players who have a level of fitess comparable to many professional footballers? I doubt that.

They may be fitter in 30 years time but it won't be the sea change that it was between 30 years ago and today, not unless you are talking outside factors such as drugs.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

Stoner Its not comparing Apples and oranges. Donegal have played in 3 finals Meath in 15 finals. Meath are the joint 4th most sucessful county.

Well if Donegal can't compare their 2 AI final wins with Meath's 7, how can you compare Meath's 7 with Dublin's 27.

It works both ways you can't talk about "standing toe to toe" when there's a 27:7 ratio, and then want to dismiss a 7:2 ratio when you are on the right side of it.

If you want to use Meath's 7 wins to make a case against Dublin's 27, then you have to be open to listening to an argument when you are on the right side of it .

It's about the same ratio

JB81

Sonny

You need to go get a job or a hobby man !!!

I'm sitting here trying to work out if you are 12 years of age or 62 years of age.

You are relentless, let it go man!!!

JB

The Talking Bread

Ha, leave Sonny alone! He engages in debate without pointless personal insults and has a Wikipedia of stats so his contribution is more refreshing than most of these GAA threads !

JB81

The Talking Bread wrote: »

Ha, leave Sonny alone! He engages in debate without pointless personal insults and has a Wikipedia of stats so his contribution is more refreshing than most of these GAA threads !

I know, I know

But there is debate and then there is over the top..

There is one point where he has 8 consecutive posts in the thread.. That is not debate...

The Talking Bread

"Harmless" ðŸ˜‚