wonderfullife wrote: » Why can't different techniques work? Just because traditional boxers don't use them in boxing doesn't mean they can't work. Look at James Toney as Exhibit A. Ceferino Garcia Exhibit B. Boxing has been around for over a century in something approaching the existing sport. In the very early days of boxing, depending which source you believe, some boxers used a variation of the Philly Shell defence. For decades from 1910-1980 almost no prominent world champion consistently fought behind the shoulder-roll defence. Then James Toney comes along and executed it so brilliantly that it inspired a new generation of boxers (like Floyd) to use it as their primary defence. Ceferino Garcia decided he wasn't happy being restricted to his usual punches so he came up with the bolo punch. Wind up one hand, while landing the other hand. If you had told professional boxers in the 1920's, 1950's, 1970's that the best boxer in the world would fight behind a Philly Shell defence and Sugar Ray Leonard would one day throw a bolo punch, they'd have laughed at you - very much in the same way some of you in here are mocking Conor if he has the audacity to try *different* things. The bolo punch really should never land on a professional boxer but it often does land. Sure, it's not a hurtful punch but it still has some value in throwing it because it can agitate your opponent and disrupt their rhythm, timing and confidence. I'm not telling you that Conor's weird/goofy gameplan is some genius plan nobody has ever thought of which will revolutionise boxing but I am telling you that it's very possible he's has some success with these martial-arts-based techniques because boxers are simply not used to seeing them. Floyd can *know* all he wants that Conor isn't allowed throw a head kick, for example, but if Conor lifts his lead leg rapidly as if motioning towards throwing it, Floyd as a human being will react to it in some way, and the way most people react to it is to cover their head. It's 100% human nature to react and almost always the instinct is to protect your head - that frees up a target to the body. The conventional wisdom in here is that Floyd will boss the exchanges at distance and that Conor needs to get in close. You all have it backwards in my view. Conor will have his best success at distance because he's used to throwing combinations from kicking range so effectively. Floyd will not be used to countering or attacking from a kicking distance so I expect we'll see Floyd missing a lot in Round 1. I'll even go as far as to say Floyd's Round 1 & 2 Compubox punch stats will be among the worst in his career for accuracy.
xtal191 wrote: »
Gintonious wrote: » Saw this earlier. Some of his early knockouts are devastating.
wonderfullife wrote: » Why can't different techniques work? Just because traditional boxers don't use them in boxing doesn't mean they can't work.
For decades from 1910-1980 almost no prominent world champion consistently fought behind the shoulder-roll defence. Then James Toney comes along and executed it so brilliantly that it inspired a new generation of boxers (like Floyd) to use it as their primary defence. Ceferino Garcia decided he wasn't happy being restricted to his usual punches so he came up with the bolo punch. Wind up one hand, while landing the other hand.
very much in the same way some of you in here are mocking Conor if he has the audacity to try *different* things.
I'm not telling you that Conor's weird/goofy gameplan is some genius plan nobody has ever thought of which will revolutionise boxing but I am telling you that it's very possible he's has some success with these martial-arts-based techniques because boxers are simply not used to seeing them.
Floyd can *know* all he wants that Conor isn't allowed throw a head kick, for example, but if Conor lifts his lead leg rapidly as if motioning towards throwing it, Floyd as a human being will react to it in some way, and the way most people react to it is to cover their head. It's 100% human nature to react and almost always the instinct is to protect your head - that frees up a target to the body.
The conventional wisdom in here is that Floyd will boss the exchanges at distance and that Conor needs to get in close. You all have it backwards in my view. Conor will have his best success at distance because he's used to throwing combinations from kicking range so effectively. Floyd will not be used to countering or attacking from a kicking distance so I expect we'll see Floyd missing a lot in Round 1.
I'll even go as far as to say Floyd's Round 1 & 2 Compubox punch stats will be among the worst in his career for accuracy.
wonderfullife wrote: » Number 1 prediction - Conor will jump into the air during this contest. As in RUN, JUMP, LAND from the very first bell. Both feet leaving the canvas, leaps into the air and lands. Number 2 prediction - I guarantee he throws a kick faint off his lead (right) leg. Number 3 prediction - he throws a capoeira-based spin within the first 5 minutes. You can all say whatever you want but we're 9 days away from seeing what goes down, so we shall see.
walshb wrote: » I like this, actually. Because the circus that this fight is it fits in perfectly. WWE isn't that far off what could potentially kick off in the ring........ Will we see someone or more than someone storm the ring, maybe? Look at fan man..... The DQ is at 7-1 on PP.....
ThinkProgress wrote: » Actually, part of me just hopes Conor says "f*ck the money"... and flattens him with a head kick!
ThinkProgress wrote: » It's BS Mellor... people like to separate Conor's submission losses from his stand-up performances, because they want to make his record appear more impressive! (exactly what Floyd is doing to try sell this fight)
The reality, is that Conor has been finished X3 times in his MMA career thus far... and none of those finishes were against top elite fighters.
Diaz is obviously the best fighter to finish Conor... but he's still not a top fighter in the UFC... he's just a 32 year old journeyman, that has been in the company for 10 years now, and never won a belt!
Damien Maia is a poor all-round MMA fighter... he doesn't have the all-round skillset to become one of the top fighters in the sport.
It's ironic that so many MMA fanboys like to talk about MMA being complete fighting... yet you have those same people drooling over someone like Maia, because of his BJJ skills... despite being poor in pretty much every other facet of his sport... lol... that's not complete fighting!! :pac:
The only reason he might not have got finished on the feet, is because Nate Diaz lacks the high level stand-up skills, to finish guys on the feet. That would be the only reason I could see... because he was clearly in a very bad way, after a simple punch combo from an average journeyman UFC fighter, with very overrated boxing skills!
Even in the 2nd fight, he was getting gassed out at roughly the exact same point again, just like in the 1st fight.... except this time, he got on his bike and ran away. (obviously with the memory of that 1st fight very fresh in his mind) Plenty of people got hoodwinked into believing that Conor had improved his cardio from the 1st fight... especially with all the gimmicky training programs he was pedalling on his website. But the reality, is that he gassed out at roughly the same point in the 2nd fight... but he had the experience to fight a bit smarter!
What is he going to do against Floyd, when he starts breathing heavy after 1 or 2 rounds in there...??? Is he going to run away from Floyd too??
Mellor wrote: » Floyd is doing it here to sell the fight. That doesn't mean it's a legitmate aspect of analysis. Different fighters have different skill sets. You claim to be an MMA fan. I find that hard to believe that a casual wouldn't be aware of something so simple. The (repeated) criticism of Conor v Diaz would be spouted by anybody who tuned in for that fight and that fight only.The sport in Ireland was very different back then. Conor turned pro very quickly after taking up the sport. As did most guys as there was nobody in ireland competing back them. Conor was fighter pro MMA as a white belt in jiu jitus, that's unheard of these days. Any basic grappler would have sub him once they get it down. Lauding those losses over him shows you're just out to needle him, or you don't understand grappling as much as you let on. Right, Diaz finished Conor. He's not a champ, just a typical top 10 also-ran. What's the relevance to my post though. Not sure if the strawman is intentional, or you're struggling to understand. I said Maia has excellent jiu jitsu. He does, arguing that point is the height of stupidity. It doesn't take a genius to recognizance an attribute in isolatin. Same what the Floyd Mayweather is one of the ATG boxers, truely elite of the elite. But as a complete fighter, as you put it, he's mediocre at best. But I apprecaite their skills for their skills. Really that simple to me. Complete fighting refers to the rule set. You have to win under those conditions. It's all well and good being an handy kickboxer (for example), but if a hobbyist grappler can hand your ass to you in a fight, something is lacking. The inverse is of course true too, elite grappling is limited if you can't avoid basic strikes and crumble when you get hit even at the highest levels (Brock Lesnar, Ronda Rousey). You don't need to be elite in every aspect. In fact, I'd even go as far to say it's not possible. There's a limited time available to reach the top of a sport. If you focus on a single aspect, your scope for that aspect is great. And as such, you should be held to a higher standard. Take the hepatalon for example, verses any single event in isolation. One is a specialised athleticism, the other comprehensive athleticism. No sane person would criticise an elite hepathlete for not breaking the world records set by single event athletes. Yet, that's what people keep trying to do. It's really odd, and a little unhealthy imo. The reason I said it's impossible to say, was that there was only 1 minute left in the round. He could have taking more strikes, lost the roun, but not been finished. I think you are mixing up the rounds in the second fight. He lost the first fight in the second round. In the rematch, McGregor dominated the 1st and 2nd round. 2 of his 3 knock downs were in the 2nd round. It was the third round that Diaz clearly won. And I don't think he was pedalling (pardon the pun) that cardio program with Dalby until after that fight. Although, I'm not certain when it went live. I'd imagine he'll lose the fight. The majority of people can see this fight for what is is. And can recognise both sports for what they are. It's entirely possible to recognise a fighters ability in one sport, without having to blindly wade in behind. For example, if I point of some flaw in your logic regard Conor getting kneebared as a white belt. I'm just pointing of the flaw in the logic, i'm not necessarily using that as evidence for this boxing match. So rolling back to Conor v Floyd doesn't really refute those points. I just don't understand why people are trying to make it into this weird boxing v MMA thing. It comes across a little insecure to me, on both sides. Not everyone, the minority of course, and a lot are maybe trolling
the whole year inn wrote: » Your just making excuses for him,he went in and got beat,no one is needleing him ,there just facts. Can you not see your standing up for him and making excuses or that blind to the facts?
Gintonious wrote: » If he does then so what? There is a difference between him doing them and them being effective. The run and jump...why bother?
wonderfullife wrote: » Floyd lost 8 times at a similar stage in his career to Conor. The loss to Sitenkov and Duffy were not very dissimilar to the early defeats Floyd suffered as an amateur. MMA doesn't have a rich history of separating amateur and professional competition, so you often get professional bouts that are amateur in all-but-name when it comes to skillsets on show.
wonderfullife wrote: » If he does them AND he wins, then they were effective. So I'll return to this after if he wins and discuss how they were effective.
Mellor wrote: » Floyd is doing it here to sell the fight. That doesn't mean it's a legitmate aspect of analysis. Different fighters have different skill sets.
You claim to be an MMA fan. I find that hard to believe that a casual wouldn't be aware of something so simple. The (repeated) criticism of Conor v Diaz would be spouted by anybody who tuned in for that fight and that fight only.
The sport in Ireland was very different back then. Conor turned pro very quickly after taking up the sport. As did most guys as there was nobody in ireland competing back them. Conor was fighter pro MMA as a white belt in jiu jitus, that's unheard of these days. Any basic grappler would have sub him once they get it down. Lauding those losses over him shows you're just out to needle him, or you don't understand grappling as much as you let on.
Right, Diaz finished Conor. He's not a champ, just a typical top 10 also-ran. What's the relevance to my post though.
Not sure if the strawman is intentional, or you're struggling to understand. I said Maia has excellent jiu jitsu. He does, arguing that point is the height of stupidity. It doesn't take a genius to recognizance an attribute in isolatin. Same what the Floyd Mayweather is one of the ATG boxers, truely elite of the elite. But as a complete fighter, as you put it, he's mediocre at best.
And I don't think he was pedalling (pardon the pun) that cardio program with Dalby until after that fight. Although, I'm not certain when it went live.
I just don't understand why people are trying to make it into this weird boxing v MMA thing. It comes across a little insecure to me, on both sides. Not everyone, the minority of course, and a lot are maybe trolling
wonderfullife wrote: » The loss to Sitenkov and Duffy were not very dissimilar to the early defeats Floyd suffered as an amateur. MMA doesn't have a rich history of separating amateur and professional competition, so you often get professional bouts that are amateur in all-but-name when it comes to skillsets on show.
RoryMac wrote: » I don't think McGregor will come out swinging wildly at Mayweather but his only chance of the win is to connect with a big shot. He's not going to outbox Mayweather and its a massive ask to expect him to win on points. He'll be patient & wait for openings and when they come he'll try to unload on Mayweather. The problem will I think he'll miss with most and the others will likely connect with arms or shoulders. A few rounds in and I think he'll be gassing and Mayweather will finish him.
Eyes Down Field wrote: » McGregor coming out swinging, throwing wild punches, would be absolute suicide. Floyd will destroy him with counter punches, cracking him with that left hook, straight right. If that's his plan, Conor will be lucky to last a round.
walshb wrote: » I reckon Floyd feels out Conor's offense first. Everything about it, and may even allow Conor unload on him whilst he blocks and covers up.. Rd or two tops. He then goes to work himself and shuts Conor down...
Joeseph Balls wrote: » Hence conor coming forward. I don't think he will 'allow' conor unload in the first or second round, that would be reckless. Granted Floyd knows conors power isn't anything he hasn't felt before, but it would be stupid to allow him to unload. Once conor feels his head snap back a few times from counters he will slow down very quick, and were in for the snore fest / masterclass were used to. Of course I'd love conor to win BTW.
walshb wrote: » Joeseph Balls wrote: » But Floyd can kind of allow a non boxer unload.. Not saying he lets Conor connect clean to his head.. He'll be covering, parrying, blocking, riding most of the shots...Floyd is a general.. Just to get a feel of what he faces on offence... I think the first sentance is a bit ignorant Walsh. A non boxer yes, but Conor can fight. And I do think Floyd will respect Conor for the first few rounds. You know it only takes one, and a big awkward one not expected is risky. You know how Floyd fights, he'll suss out his punches first, he won't suss them out by letting him offload when conor is fresh in rd 1or 2. He'll let him off load later when he's figured him out if, 'if' he needs a breather. You probably answered this already but I skip some pages due to the ****e that's posted, but would you like to see Conor win?
Joeseph Balls wrote: » But Floyd can kind of allow a non boxer unload.. Not saying he lets Conor connect clean to his head.. He'll be covering, parrying, blocking, riding most of the shots...Floyd is a general.. Just to get a feel of what he faces on offence...
