Fight Time From 4am-McGregor vs MayweatherMOD Warning in 1st Post

Naos wrote: »

Okay - I shall make this simple.

What unknowns and variables does boxing have that MMA does not?

The threat of a takedown is just ONE unknown and variable that MMA has over boxing.

Threat of a takedown is not an unknown..it's known...

Naos

walshb wrote: »

Threat of a takedown is not an unknown..it's known...

That makes zero sense, you don't know if it's going to happen or not.

What unknown is there in boxing then?

Also, what variables does boxing have that MMA does not?

gilmour

I see the cans are flowing tonight lads

Gamebred

We havent reached DJ v Joshua yet in the octagon tis still early love it lads!

Naos wrote: »

That makes zero sense, you don't know if it's going to happen or not.

What unknown is there in boxing then?

Also, what variables does boxing have that MMA does not?

Simply put, word class specialisation in a specific art.
That's what boxing has that MMA genreally doesn't.

Now in MMA there are a handful of exemptions, mostly from BJJ, Jacare, Maia, Augusto Mendes, Ryan Hall, etc, who come from BJJ/Grappling backgrounds who eventually decide to attempt MMA because their earning potential in BJJ competition is topped out a pittance per year + seminars, unfortunately. You could probably throw olympic/NCAA wrestlers in there for the same reason, after college/olympic competition there is nowhere else for them to go.

The reason top class boxing prospects don't end up converting to MMA is because the ceiling for earning for decent contender at international level in professional boxing is multiples that of the potential income for an average MMA fighter. Why would they commit to 5 fight 12 to show 12 to win mma contracts in an organisation where you're at the whims of the promoter as to whether you get a fight, rather than in a sport protected by the Ali Act?

The sooner the Ali Act is applied to MMA and scumbags like Dana White are cut out the better. For the last 2 decades warriors have put their lives on the line for a pittance while lowlifes like Dana and the Fritata sisters make a killing off of them.

The fact that Zuffa get a large chunk of Conor's purse and earnings from this fight is sickening, he should be protected by the Ali Act and be clearing 150+ easily. The fact that in MMA the promoter is both the promoter, booker and sanctioning body is disgusting and the sooner the class action by Fitch, Couture, etc is heard and applied to MMA the better.

Gamebred wrote: »

We havent reached DJ v Joshua yet in the octagon tis still early love it lads!

DJ by ankle bite in the 2nd. Like a plucky Jack Russell latching on to a mastif's balls!

ThinkProgress

wonderfullife wrote: »

I get the impression you used to box at an amateur level and are outraged that boxers are not the toughest fighters anymore. Nobody fears boxers anymore, people fear mixed martial artists.

That will become even clearer when Conor beats Floyd.

You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder towards boxing... despite claiming to have been watching the sport since the 1980's (:pac:)... and also despite the fact that boxing skills are HUGELY important to MMA.

(how much does Conor owe to Crumlin boxing club, for all his success in the UFC?? I would argue quite a bit... even though he left before they could turn him into a top boxer. They still gave him enough to win fights in a cage!!)

What is your big gripe with boxing??

Boxing is a specialisation... there is nothing wrong with being a high level specialist. It gives you the opportunity to be great a one set of skills... and it also gives you the chance to build outstanding levels of athleticism!

MMA is more well rounded... but at the same time, it's a "jack-of-all-trades... master-of-none" type discipline.

In MMA, it's pretty much impossible to be great at everything. There is this big myth in the MMA world, that they are creating perfect all-round fighters... but this is just not true at all. (that's obviously the dream... but it has not become a reality thus far)

It is actually the specialists that tend to have more success in MMA, when they turn their best skills against other fighters with weaknesses in those departments (Cormier/olympic wrestler.... Rousey/olympic Judo.... Conor/high level striking.... jones/high level striking.... Anderson/high level striking.... GSP/great at sitting on top of people for a whole fight(:p).... you get the picture)

It's actually very difficult to be great at everything. Almost impossible I would argue... and even if you do reach a level, where you are solid in all departments... quite often you will not reach the top, because you have sacrificed being better at one of those skillsets. (there are lots of fighters like this in the UFC)

Then you come to the athleticism factor... I would argue that specialists have a better chance to reach a higher level of athleticism, than fighters who are trying to be a "jack-of-all-trades"... this is because, the skillsets within MMA, do not really blend together very well.

They are all very different athletically... so they require very different movements from your body. If you try to be great at wrestling AND boxing, for example, you're just going to end up being average at both. Because physically, they are two very different things!

So choosing to focus more on striking or more on your ground game... in effect becoming somewhat of a specialist within the MMA world.... is actually a smarter choice, if you want to reach the top of the sport.

(so perhaps you shouldn't look down your nose quite so much, at specialists like boxers... considering you have so many examples of specialisation within MMA itself!)

I like the sport of MMA... I like the idea of creating the perfect balanced fighter... but right now that's all it really is... AN IDEA... A DREAM... it's a very young sport, and nobody has actually figured out how to achieve "the perfect all-round fighter"... and their levels of athleticism are also often sadly lacking from those in individual (specialist) sports!

You're going to see all of this on Aug 26th... we're all going to see it... we're going to see one of MMA's top specialist strikers, going up against a true elite specialist at one of those striking disciplines!

We're also going to find out if the 40 year old elite specialist, has better athleticism than the 29 year old MMA fighter... we're going to find out if all that wrestling and BJJ training, has made Conor a better or worse athlete than Floyd... who has focused solely on being great athletically for one thing: Boxing!

Despite focussing more on striking... my guess, is that Conor's training in wrestling and BJJ (among other things) will be a huge impediment to him matching Floyd athletically in a boxing ring... and this is despite him being the much younger athlete!

I think Conor is going to struggle badly physically in there, against the high level specialist athlete. I think it's Conor that will look like the 40 year old... Floyd will be moving around like the 29 year old... both physically and technically, Floyd is going to look like the younger man in there!

This fact alone, will make this event one of the strangest spectacles in "sporting" history!! :pac:

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

The reason top class boxing prospects don't end up converting to MMA is because the ceiling for earning for decent contender at international level in professional boxing is multiples that of the potential income for an average MMA fighter. Why would they commit to 5 fight 12 to show 12 to win mma contracts in an organisation where you're at the whims of the promoter as to whether you get a fight, rather than in a sport protected by the Ali Act?

"The ceiling for a decent contender at international level in professional boxing is multiples that of an average MMA fighter"??

That doesn't even compute. What are you trying to say? That the earning ceiling for a Justin Gaethje is lower than that of a Kell Brook?

ThinkProgress wrote: »

What is your big gripe with boxing??

You're going to see all of this on Aug 26th... we're all going to see it... we're going to see one of MMA's top specialist strikers, going up against a true elite specialist at one of those striking disciplines!

I love boxing.

I just think Conor is going to beat Floyd and a lot of the boxing purists are speaking from a position of ignorance and delusion when they speak of the 'sweet science' relative to MMA.

We'll find out in 13 days.

wonderfullife wrote: »

"The ceiling for a decent contender at international level in professional boxing is multiples that of an average MMA fighter"??

That doesn't even compute. What are you trying to say? That the earning ceiling for a Justin Gaethje is lower than that of a Kell Brook?

Are you saying Geathje is an "average MMA fighter" and Brook is just a "decent contender" at international level?

Last time I checked Geathje is considered to be a potential UFC champion and Kell Brook is a former a world champion who recently fought in a unification fight and has career purse earnings of well over £3.5 million + ppv points.

Oh and Geathje is 2 years younger than Brook and has earned a fraction of Brook's career earnings to date...

Outlaw Pete

normanoffside wrote: »

Google Katie Taylor vs Rigo. Katie lands a few blows. Do you think she would beat him? .

Wha the hell are you on about

gilmour

wonderfullife wrote: »

I love boxing.

I just think Conor is going to beat Floyd and a lot of the boxing purists are speaking from a position of ignorance and delusion when they speak of the 'sweet science' relative to MMA.

We'll find out in 13 days.

Wonder just out of curiosity and for a discussion what do you think Conor is going to do to crack the "code" of Floyd? I'm asking this in a chilled out manner and not trying to be a purist about things but i'm actually very interested to hear from you (not singling you out, and others if possible) about what shots, moments, spots, and general tactics can you see Conor implementing on Floyd?

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Wha the hell are you on about

There's footage of Katie Taylor sparring Guillermo Rigondeaux, they are about the same height, about the same weight (Katie is actually slightly heavier), Rigo is considered the current #1 ranked Super Bantam Weight and one of the top pound 4 pound boxers on the planet.

In the footage Katie is seen hitting Rigo clean several times.

Does this mean she can beat Rigo?

Of course not.

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Are you saying Geathje is an "average MMA fighter" and Brook is just a "decent contender" at international level?

Last time I checked Geathje is considered to be a potential UFC champion and Kell Brook is a former a world champion who recently fought in a unification fight and has career purse earnings of well over £3.5 million + ppv points.

Oh and Geathje is 2 years younger than Brook and has earned a fraction of Brook's career earnings to date...

You compared an apple with an orange. You said the ceiling for "an average MMA fighter" is lower than that of a "contender at international boxing". A fairer comparison is the fact that BOTH SPORTS, boxing and MMA, are abysmal for paying fighters at the lower tiers.

As for the rest of your post, you're correct the implementation of the Ali Act and breaking the UFC's monopoly are huge steps necessary to increase the payscale in MMA but let's be real, Bellators last PPV apparently sold 75,000 so they're nowhere near even challenging to snap the monopoly.

None of the above belongs in a boxing forum, nevermind this thread so let's move on.

I'm sorry, where's the strawman? You threw out two names and I pointed out that you were talking nonsense.

You chose to pick a world class MMA fighter (ranked 5th in the UFC, former WSOF champion, NCAA D1 All American) and a world class boxer, and the point I made still rings true.

12gauge dave

How the hell did paulie not steamroll conor? Paulie is a world class boxer

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

I'm sorry, where's the strawman? You threw out two names and I pointed out that you were talking nonsense.

An "average mma fighter" does not equal "professional boxing contender".

It's not a fair comparison and it was misleading to suggest boxing earnings ceiling is multiple times that of MMA, when in reality it's not even double.

Bloody Elbow did a good study on it. Boxing and MMA salaries are broadly similar at the lower and mid-tier levels and slowly converging at the top level thanks to recent salaries by the likes of Conor, Brock Lesnar, etc. Even DC got $1 million disclosed + PPV points recently for a rumoured take home pay of $3 million.

12gauge dave wrote: »

How the hell did paulie not steamroll conor? Paulie is a world class boxer

Conor is exceptionally talented, a phenomenal athlete, great ring IQ, is very cerebral in his setups and traps and is basically a very accurate puncher.

Before you let Walshb convince you it was a "micky mouse spar", just a quick reminder that Joe Cortez was in the middle of the ring and they went a full 12-rounds in front of an audience.

It was a proper fight, albeit one in headgear and 16oz gloves. The fact that Conor looked fresh as a daisy in the 11th and 12th shows he wasn't troubled by Paulie's jab to the body in the earlier rounds. If Paulie was destroying him to the body, Conor wouldn't have had that spring in his step so late.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0O9wfIdP8w

wonderfullife wrote: »

An "average mma fighter" does not equal "professional boxing contender".

It's not a fair comparison and it was misleading to suggest boxing earnings ceiling is multiple times that of MMA, when in reality it's not even double.

Bloody Elbow did a good study on it. Boxing and MMA salaries are broadly similar at the lower and mid-tier levels and slowly converging at the top level thanks to recent salaries by the likes of Conor, Brock Lesnar, etc. Even DC got $1 million disclosed + PPV points recently for a rumoured take home pay of $3 million.

What I actuallt said was;

The reason top class boxing prospects don't end up converting to MMA is because the ceiling for earning for decent contender at international level in professional boxing is multiples that of the potential income for an average MMA fighter.

For someone like Joe Ward or Mick Conlan, their earning potential in professional Boxing, even if they only reach the level of international level contender (which is NOT world championship level), they would make multiples what they would in MMA. They could spend several years learning ground work, but they'd still only be striking specialists in MMA. If they focus on boxing their potential is infinitely higher.

That's a stone cold fact.

The only reason why specialists from grappling arts like collegiate wrestling and BJJ decide to enter MMA is because after collegiate wrestling there is no career besides training with the american olympic wrestling team in denver for pittance, that's why D1 all americans like Woodley, Hendrix, Geathje, DC, etc move into MMA, there's nowhere else for them to go to make a living.

As for BJJ, after wining a few Copa's, Mundials, ADCC trials, etc, you've maxed your earning potential from competition at a pitiful number. You can throw in a few seminars and super fights in Fight2Win/EBI/Polaris for a few grand at a pop as well, but eventually the best grapplers like Dannis, Hall, Rafael Lovato Jr, Maia, Souza, Augusto Mendes, Mackenzie Dern, Gabi Garcia, etc, etc, etc, move into MMA because despite the earnings in MMa being low, the earnings in the chose specialisation are even lower.

That's way AJ went from the olympics to professional boxing and DC went from the olympics to Strikeforce, or why Maia went from Mundials to UFC, or Kron Gracie ended up in Rizin.

ThinkProgress

wonderfullife wrote: »

I love boxing.

I just think Conor is going to beat Floyd and a lot of the boxing purists are speaking from a position of ignorance and delusion when they speak of the 'sweet science' relative to MMA.

We'll find out in 13 days.

I wonder would you be so dismissive and arrogant towards another sport, like you are with boxing, if Conor was going up against one of the elite practitioners in that particular sport...??

Let's say Conor was taking on a world champ in BJJ or Kickboxing or wrestling or Muay Thai, for example... would you be dismissing the skills in those sports, the same way you appear to be towards the skills of boxing??

Just something worth thinking about.

wonderfullife wrote: »

Conor is exceptionally talented, a phenomenal athlete, great ring IQ, is very cerebral in his setups and traps and is basically a very accurate puncher.

Before you let Walshb convince you it was a "micky mouse spar", just a quick reminder that Joe Cortez was in the middle of the ring and they went a full 12-rounds in front of an audience.

It was a proper fight, albeit one in headgear and 16oz gloves. The fact that Conor looked fresh as a daisy in the 11th and 12th shows he wasn't troubled by Paulie's jab to the body in the earlier rounds. If Paulie was destroying him to the body, Conor wouldn't have had that spring in his step so late.

I'm truly amazed at what some people can take from 48 seconds of footage...

It's almost like some of you guys now consider it a fact, that Conor got the better of their sparring... despite only seeing a tiny fraction of the total footage!? :rolleyes:

They sparred for 48 MINUTES in total... and we have 48 SECONDS worth of footage!! (just please try to keep that in perspective here)

One also has to consider... why only release less than a minute of total footage?? If Conor completely dominated those sessions... there would be FAR more footage to impress us all and help sell the fight.

Obviously there is tactical stuff they might not want released. But still, you would imagine there would be a great deal more than a few seconds, IF Conor actually did dominate Paulie!

My guess, is that the footage we have been given, is likely the only stand-out moments that Conor had in their entire sessions. If there was any more, it almost certainly would have been released. (I could be wrong, but that's my opinion on it)

StringerBell

12gauge dave wrote: »

How the hell did paulie not steamroll conor? Paulie is a world class boxer

He probably got the better of the sparring they did, in fact I would be amazed if he didn't. He is also out of shape, over the hill in terms of his legs being gone and he never had any power anyway. He was never a world class boxer in his prime never mind in the condition he is now. He was a good pro who made a good career for himself using the talents he had, the best of which was his mouth.

Outlaw Pete

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

There's footage of Katie Taylor sparring Guillermo Rigondeaux, they are about the same height, about the same weight (Katie is actually slightly heavier), Rigo is considered the current #1 ranked Super Bantam Weight and one of the top pound 4 pound boxers on the planet.

In the footage Katie is seen hitting Rigo clean several times.

Does this mean she can beat Rigo?

Of course not.

I didn't ask them what the hell they were on about because I wasn't aware Katie sparred Rigo, I asked them what the hell they were on about as they implied (as you are doing now also) that my reasoning for why McGregor has chance against Floyd compares to someone giving Katie a chance against Rigo. It's highly illogical as my reasoning for giving McGregor a chance is NOT based purely on the notion that 'Well, he could hit him and so must have a chance as a result' as is the suggestion .

This is what I meant earlier when I spoke of how users have given reasoned and articulate views on this thread and are more often that not met with obnoxious strawman responses from Boxing forum regulars more concerned with the sound of their own retort, the thanks it might garner, than actually bothering to familiarize themselves with just what it is that the user actually thinks.

tl;dr

Conor should be a 12/1 shot to beat Floyd in my view, and I'd make Katie a 2000/1 shot against Rigo. Suggesting that giving McGregor a chance at beating Floyd, is akin to giving Katie a chance at beating Rigo............well, just shows how detached from reality many of you are with regards to the skill set of Conor McGregor.

Jesus Wept

ThinkProgress wrote: »

I wonder would you be so dismissive and arrogant towards another sport, like you are with boxing, if Conor was going up against one of the elite practitioners in that particular sport...??

Let's say Conor was taking on a world champ in BJJ or Kickboxing or wrestling or Muay Thai, for example... would you be dismissing the skills in those sports, the same way you appear to be towards the skills of boxing??

I never dismissed the skills of a top class boxer.

I dismissed the "boxing experts" of which there are plenty in here, who claim that the skill disparity between boxing and MMA is so wide that the likes of Conor couldn't beat a club level boxer.

https://twitter.com/JoesusWalks/status/896148566409830401

Outlaw Pete

normanoffside wrote: »

Pete, you are constantly trying to present an argument whereby McGregor wins but at the same time are saying there is very little chance he wins. That's what makes no sense. Can you not see that?

LMAO. And this got thanked??? Sums this forum up

Do I make an argument for how McGregor could win? Yes!
(Early on, I give him a slim chance.... went into detail many times why... read back)
Do I think he has very little chance of winning though? Yes!
(have also went into detail many times why I believe this too)

Are you (and your thankers) seriously trying to suggest that makes "no sense"? :pac:

wonderfullife wrote: »

I dismissed the "boxing expChunayev erts" of which there are plenty in here, who claim that the skill disparity between boxing and MMA is so wide that the likes of Conor couldn't beat a club level boxer.

The disparity between specialisations and MMA is huge.

Lets say for the sake of it Conor competes at aprox 70kg (154lbs) in MMA and that's his natural competitive weight. I think you'd agree with that?

Could he hang with Lucas Lepri under IBJJF or ADCC rules?

Could he hang with Rasul Chunayev in greco-roman wrestling?

Could he hang with Magomed Kurbanaliev in freestyle wrestling?

Could he hand with Jason Nolf in Collegiate wrestling?

Could he hang with John Wayne Parr in Muay Thai?

Could he hang with Sitthichai Sitsongpeenong in Glory kickboxing?

The answer to all of the above is no, he'd be embarrassed, and there's nothing wrong with that, none of them would be able to hang with Conor in an MMA fight.

It's that simple.

I'm sure you wouldn't even argue the above.

So what makes you think he can hang with one of the pound 4 pound greatest of all time boxers in a boxing match?

Mellor

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

The reason top class boxing prospects don't end up converting to MMA is because the ceiling for earning for decent contender at international level in professional boxing is multiples that of the potential income for an average MMA fighter. Why would they commit to 5 fight 12 to show 12 to win mma contracts in an organisation where you're at the whims of the promoter as to whether you get a fight, rather than in a sport protected by the Ali Act?

I agree with the reasons why boxers have better earning prospects to stick with boxing. The ceiling is better.

But undercard pro boxers are screwed over worse than undercard UFC fighters. The Ali act doesn't help them. Look at what the lowest paid guy on MayPac was getting.

Wait and see what the lowest earner on the Mayweather v McGregor card gets.

ThinkProgress wrote: »

It is actually the specialists that tend to have more success in MMA, when they turn their best skills against other fighters with weaknesses in those departments (Cormier/olympic wrestler.... Rousey/olympic Judo.... Conor/high level striking.... jones/high level striking.... Anderson/high level striking.... GSP/great at sitting on top of people for a whole fight(:p).... you get the picture)

Jones's background is wrestling. GSP's is striking.
There are the two best examples of all round fighters imo. They've become specialists in other areas. Jose Aldo is another example.

Most fighters are generalists, I agree.
Boxers are specialists.

I like the sport of MMA... I like the idea of creating the perfect balanced fighter... but right now that's all it really is... AN IDEA... A DREAM... it's a very young sport, and nobody has actually figured out how to achieve "the perfect all-round fighter"... and their levels of athleticism are also often sadly lacking from those in individual (specialist) sports!

Thats true. But boxing, under these or similar rulesets, has been around forever old. And we still haven't found a perfect boxer.

We're also going to find out if the 40 year old elite specialist, has better athleticism than the 29 year old MMA fighter... we're going to find out if all that wrestling and BJJ training, has made Conor a better or worse athlete than Floyd... who has focused solely on being great athletically for one thing: Boxing!

Floys may or may not be more athletic. It's relevant imo. Floyd doesn't need better athleticism to beat McGregor. The beats him on technical ability alone.

Floyd would beat a younger, more athletic, boxer handily also.

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

The disparity between specialisations and MMA is huge.

Lets say for the sake of it Conor competes at aprox 70kg (154lbs) in MMA and that's his natural competitive weight. I think you'd agree with that?

Could he hang with Lucas Lepri under IBJJF or ADCC rules?

Could he hang with Rasul Chunayev in greco-roman wrestling?

Could he hang with Magomed Kurbanaliev in freestyle wrestling?

Could he hand with Jason Nolf in Collegiate wrestling?

Could he hang with John Wayne Parr in Muay Thai?

Could he hang with Sitthichai Sitsongpeenong in Glory kickboxing?

The answer to all of the above is no, he'd be embarrassed, and there's nothing wrong with that, none of them would be able to hang with Conor in an MMA fight.

It's that simple.

I'm sure you wouldn't even argue the above.

So what makes you think he can hang with one of the pound 4 pound greatest of all time boxers in a boxing match?

He wouldn't obviously get near any of those. And he doesn't get near Floyd imo. But they aren't "club level" either.

An MMA fighters gets nowhere near a pro bjj guy in jiu jitsu. But a novice/intermediate/club level bjj guy (what ever the parallel is). He could have a shot.

wonderfullife wrote: »

I love boxing.

.

Yeh, right!

12gauge dave wrote: »

How the hell did paulie not steamroll conor? Paulie is a world class boxer

Didn't you know, Conor beats practically every pro from145-160...

Paulie hadn't a prayer!