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So it's the 12th of July tomorrow. Will the North ever not be sectarian?

steddyeddy

I was working in America recently. The DUP had just struck a deal with the Tories to support them in exchange for 1 billion pounds. In a developing economy this would be called a bribe. Anyway, the point is that this is when the world was introduced to the DUP. People in America were shocked by the DUP and coverage of the run up to the 12th of July. When I came back to England most people and coverage of the DUP was negative. We don't seem as shocked by it anymore and that's a bad thing.

I think it's easy to forget that burning bonfires with the Irish flag and effigies of other communities, sectarian bands marching down areas filled with people they hate and general bigotry isn't normal.

What will it take to stop all this sectarianism?

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FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

Have you ever been to a Sinn Fein ard fheis???? Actually don't bother with that one....

More whataboutery.
What about SF is in any way similar to the DUP, do they foist their suprematist religious beliefs on everybody by denying rights? Do they block the rights to express cultural identity?

You made the claim, back it up.

bear1

timthumbni wrote: »

The mcguiness coffin was stupid and uncalled for. Though it has to be remembered that mcguiness was a self confessed leader of a terrorist organisation that murdered many, many unionists. Men,women and children when it suited them. I shed no tears when that so called man passed I promise you. He shed no tears for the many, many victims of the IRA.

The Sinclair slogan was again idiotic. During my walk to work in Belfast every day I pass 3 KAH slogans spayed on walls. kAH stands for KILL ALL HUNS btw. A slang term for prods in NI. I don't hold that against the entire catholic community. Rather just a few idiots.

Killings were done on both sides so if you are going to say you shed no tears for those that killed protestants, would you stand over that same statement for those that killed the catholics?

timthumbni

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Orange Order is in decline thankfully. I'd imagine the marching thing will begin to decline too now that the windupery aspect has been largely eliminated by the Parades Commission. It's not as much craic taunting them'uns when you're not allowed to march through their communities.

I just noticed that windupery (is that a word? a portmanteau?) has winDUPery in its midst.

The OO is possibly (though I wouldn't call its death just yet) on the wain. The bands are still pretty heathy though and the 12th is mostly about the bands. Most of the parades are band led parades anyway. Nothing to do with the OO.

Most parades 95 plus percent are never in contention anyway so it's literally the tiny few that draw attention.

holyhead

I think deep down Loyalists realise that the UK doesn't give a flying fiddles about Northern Ireland. Loyalists cling desperately to a sense of attachment to the UK. I think this propels a lot of the extreme actions you see on the Loyalist's side. They fear being outnumbered by Catholics in the next 25 years. Ironically they view themselves as second class citizens as Catholics actually were in the late 60's until they got equal status with their protestant fellow citizens. I walked down the Shankill a number of times and compared to the Falls it is a kip.
They feel, rightly or wrongly, that their culture is under threat. I think Arlene Foster has a great opportunity if she has the foresight to see it. The real union she should be working on is a union between the catholic and protestant people of the state of which she is head. I just feel she is a Protestant first leader and not a first leader for all the people of N.I.

timthumbni

bear1 wrote: »

Killings were done on both sides so if you are going to say you shed no tears for those that killed protestants, would you stand over that same statement for those that killed the catholics?

I despise loyalist terrorists too. They were scum. Does that answer your question?

timthumbni

holyhead wrote: »

I think deep down Loyalists realise that the UK doesn't give a flying fiddles about Northern Ireland. Loyalists cling desperately to a sense of attachment to the UK. I think this propels a lot of the extreme actions you see on the Loyalist's side. They fear being outnumbered by Catholics in the next 25 years. Ironically they view themselves as second class citizens as Catholics actually were in the late 60's until they got equal status with their protestant fellow citizens. I walked down the Shankill a number of times and compared to the Falls it is a kip.
They feel, rightly or wrongly, that their culture is under threat. I think Arlene Foster has a great opportunity if she has the foresight to see it. The real union she should be working on is a union between the catholic and protestant people of the state of which she is head. I just feel she is a Protestant first leader and not a first leader for all the people of N.I.

I have experience of both the shankill and the falls close up. The shankill is a dump but it is quite a small area. The falls is also a dump and the anti social behavior that can be traced right back to relying on some terrorist self serving grouping like the Ira has really come home to roost. Anyone with a brain wants to leave the area to head to crumlin and other suburbs.

If you love your joyriding and huge groups of drunken
youths causing trouble then the falls is certainly the area for you.

bear1

timthumbni wrote: »

I despise loyalist terrorists too. They were scum. Does that answer your question?

Not directly. you seemed more angry at the fact the ira were killing protestant men women and children.
I think I'll call it quits at this stage.
Any thread which has an ni/roi link ends in off topic debates and bolloxology.
You may despise anything with an IRL planted beside it and believe everything UK is brilliant but that is your opinion/right. You'd be wrong but hey opinions are like assholes, we've all got one.
Hopefully neither you or I will ever have to deal with a UI as it appears we simply aren't ready for it.

Junkyard Tom

timthumbni wrote: »

I despise loyalist terrorists too. They were scum. Does that answer your question?

There were unionist terrorists too and there were plenty of unionist terrorists and colluders in the UDR/RUC/UDA.

FrancieBrady

bear1 wrote: »

Not directly. you seemed more angry at the fact the ira were killing protestant men women and children.
I think I'll call it quits at this stage.
Any thread which has an ni/roi link ends in off topic debates and bolloxology.

Because generally our unionist and partitioning members engage in deflection and whataboutery rather than deal with the actual topic. As evidenced by the last few pages.

timthumbni

bear1 wrote: »

Not directly. you seemed more angry at the fact the ira were killing protestant men women and children.
I think I'll call it quits at this stage.
Any thread which has an ni/roi link ends in off topic debates and bolloxology.
You may despise anything with an IRL planted beside it and believe everything UK is brilliant but that is your opinion/right. You'd be wrong but hey opinions are like assholes, we've all got one.
Hopefully neither you or I will ever have to deal with a UI as it appears we simply aren't ready for it.

I Don't despise anything with IRL planted beside it thanks. The republic is a probably a great country to live in. It's like here. A lot of ****, a lot of good. I don't think the uk is "brilliant" as you put it. It was others who seek to slag off NOrn Iron as some sort of backwater which is frankly bull****.

Angela merkel has only recently voted against gay marriage. (Yes I know the vote passed) and you lot only passed recently. Every country has their wee idiosyncrasies. We are no different. I await Italy for example to approve gay marriage.

LordSutch

Unionists/Nationalist terrorists?

There was a time not so long ago when terminology dictated that the Loyalists supplied the terrorists on one side, & Republicans on the other!

Now I notice that the terms Unionists & Nationalists are also being used in relation to terrorism. Just an observation of a slight shift in terminology.

I think the reason for Nationalists & Unionists being left out before was because it was generally accepted that there was a great swathe of people in NI in the middle ground (vast majority) who just didn't get mixed up in the Troubles, whereas the extremes on both sides Loyalists & Republicans were the ones causing the trouble/troubles ... hence the terms.

timthumbni

bear1 wrote: »

Not directly. you seemed more angry at the fact the ira were killing protestant men women and children.
I think I'll call it quits at this stage.
Any thread which has an ni/roi link ends in off topic debates and bolloxology.
You may despise anything with an IRL planted beside it and believe everything UK is brilliant but that is your opinion/right. You'd be wrong but hey opinions are like assholes, we've all got one.
Hopefully neither you or I will ever have to deal with a UI as it appears we simply aren't ready for it.

An btw I called loyalist terrorists scum. Yet that wasnt direct enough for you....

Ok.....

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

I Don't despise anything with IRL planted beside it thanks. The republic is a probably a great country to live in. It's like here. A lot of ****, a lot of good. I don't think the uk is "brilliant" as you put it. It was others who seek to slag off NOrn Iron as some sort of backwater which is frankly bull****.

Angela merkel has only recently voted against gay marriage. (Yes I know the vote passed) and you lot only passed recently. Every country has their wee idiosyncrasies. We are no different. I await Italy for example to approve gay marriage.

You were going to tell us who else is foisting their religious beliefs on everyone and denying rights available to everyone else on these islands?
Bigotry and supremacy culture made manifest.

timthumbni

LordSutch wrote: »

Unionists/Nationalist terrorists?

There was a time not so long ago when terminology dictated that the Loyalists supplied the terrorists on one side, & Republicans on the other!

Now I notice that the terms Unionists & Nationalists are also being used in relation to terrorism. Just an observation of a slight shift in terminology.

I think the reason for Nationalists & Unionists being left out before was because it was generally accepted that there was a great swathe of people in NI in the middle ground (vast majority) who just didn't get mixed up in the Troubles, whereas the extremes on both sides Loyalists & Republicans were the ones causing the trouble/troubles ... hence the terms.

A fair point. It's always been pretty much accepted that in NI loyalists referred to the more hardcore modern uvf/uda and republicans referred to Ira/inla/Rira/Cira
Or their supporters.

Technically in the olden terms I would be a loyalist but I now would be unhappy if anyone referred me as such.

Junkyard Tom

LordSutch wrote: »

There was a time not so long ago when terminology dictated that the Loyalists supplied the terrorists on one side, & Republicans on the other!

Indeed, a very convenient attempt to insulate political Unionism and the Unionist security forces from being involved in terrorism which they were up to thier necks in.

timthumbni

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You were going to tell us who else is foisting their religious beliefs on everyone and denying rights available to everyone else on these islands?
Bigotry and supremacy culture made manifest.

Can you put that in more laymans terms btw? What rights are you talking about? Gay rights?????

tomwaterford

timthumbni wrote: »

Can you put that in more laymans terms btw? What rights are you talking about? Gay rights?????

From just reading this post and one its quoted

I can see the person you are quoting is asking for clarity on a presumably earlier vague post??

So perhaps it's you need to clarify in layman's terms

timthumbni

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Indeed, a very convenient attempt to insulate political Unionism and the Unionist security forces from being involved in terrorism which they were up to thier necks in.

The difference being that SF and their brothers in the IRA have always been up to their necks in terrorism. There is no half way house with those deviants. I think sometimes they want to try to bring everyone else down to their admittitly swamp like low level.

Let's hope the good people of NI don't stoop to the IRAs admittitlely low standards.

LordSutch

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Indeed, a very convenient attempt to insulate political Unionism and the Unionist security forces from being involved in terrorism which they were up to their necks in.

So basically you're changing the terminology retrospectively.

timthumbni

tomwaterford wrote: »

From just reading this post and one its quoted

I can see the person you are quoting is asking for clarity on a presumably earlier vague post??

So perhaps it's you need to clarify in layman's terms

So you aren't sure either. I was asking for clarity. Thanks for letting us know you don't really know either. Enlightening. Thanks.

tomwaterford

LordSutch wrote: »

So basically you're changing the terminology retrospectively.

Toward the end of the troubles a unionist politian came out and said the GAA in NI was a ira front

Within weeks the chairman of a very large gaa club in derry was adupted,tortured and mureserved (iirc shot 6 times)

But no. ...theres o link between unionism and loyalist atal atal :rolleyes:

Shortly later Ian Paisley shared a stage and speech with Billy Wright....but no there's no link between loyalist and unionists atal atal

Don't fcuking insult people's intelligence...with pedantic shte

tomwaterford

timthumbni wrote: »

So you aren't sure either. I was asking for clarity. Thanks for letting us know you don't really know either. Enlightening. Thanks.

So we're to accept you can't back up your point
(I reed bavk)

Can't say I'm suprised tbh

LordSutch

tomwaterford wrote: »

Don't fcuking insult people's intelligence...with pedantic shte

Keep your hair on.

All I said was this > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104080850&postcount=493

Goodnight all Z z z

[Deleted User]

timthumbni wrote: »

A fair point. It's always been pretty much accepted that in NI loyalists referred to the more hardcore modern uvf/uda and republicans referred to Ira/inla/Rira/Cira
Or their supporters.

Technically in the olden terms I would be a loyalist but I now would be unhappy if anyone referred me as such.

Unionism and loyalism were happy bedfellows when it came to the shenanigans at Drumcree tim.

timthumbni

tomwaterford wrote: »

Toward the end of the troubles a unionist politian came out and said the GAA in NI was a ira front

Within weeks the chairman of a very large gaa club in derry was adupted,tortured and mureserved (iirc shot 6 times)

But no. ...theres o link between unionism and loyalist atal atal :rolleyes:

Shortly later Ian Paisley shared a stage and speech with Billy Wright....but no there's no link between loyalist and unionists atal atal

Don't fcuking insult people's intelligence...with pedantic shte

Apart from the fact you are obviously on an apple device of some sort. Fat fingers like me.

Firstly it wasn't paisley who shared a stage with wright. It was Mccrea.

I didn't give a feck about wright even when he was killed.

Of course there has been numerous links between unionists and loyalists terrorists. But it has been the minority.

However Sf for example openly stand by and support the openly terrorist organisation of the Ira. No minoroty argument there. How do you think that makes unionists feel???

It suits republicans to group everyone into 2 distinct groupings. I would never for example refer to sdlp supporters as republicans.

Junkyard Tom

timthumbni wrote: »

Let's hope the good people of NI don't stoop to the IRAs admittitlely low standards.

Not only did Unionist terrorists stoop to the PIRA's level they were positively floors below it, deep in the basement of horror and evil.

They murdered people for nothing other than being born Catholic. Over 99% of the Glenanne Gang murders were innocent Catholics.

LordSutch wrote: »

So basically you're changing the terminology retrospectively.

I'm not changing any terminology, I'm saying it as it was/is. For too long people like you and Tim have tried to pretend the Unionist terrorists in the security forces were upstanding members of the community while those in the paramilitary organisations they were part of, or colluded with, were a separate type of killer. No difference.

timthumbni

Deleted User wrote: »

Unionism and loyalism were happy bedfellows when it came to the shenanigans at Drumcree tim.

A nice reminder to the brave exploits of the Irish Republican Army saying as you are asking.........

Pure heroes those buoys were......

Junkyard Tom

timthumbni wrote: »

A nice reminder to the brave exploits of the Irish Republican Army saying as you are asking.........

You seem to care about those two children far more than the ones killed in the north during the troubles.

I could list many names of children killed, including being shot in the head and back, by the so-called security forces. I try to avoid it though because I don't think it's fair on thier families that I try to score political points by means of their short violently-ended lives

LordSutch

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I'm not changing any terminology, I'm saying it as it was/is. For too long people like you and Tim have tried to pretend the Unionist terrorists in the security forces were upstanding members of the community while those in the paramilitary organisations they were part of, or colluded with, were a separate type of killer. No difference.

You're pushing it now as I've only got one eye open at this ungodly hour.

Its not me or Tim that invented the terminology of the Troubles, its just always been Republican & Loyalist terrorists in the media since the Troubles.

And now, you talk about the Unionists as terrorists (instead of Loyalists) :cool:

A subtle change no doubt, but an unfortunate one non the less, as it brings in all these decent people I speak of (in the middle ground) into the realms of Terrorism. Decent people who had no part in the Troubles/Loyalism. I might say the same thing about the good & vast majority of Nationalists who took no part in the Troubles, hence it would be very unfair to talk about the nationalist Terrorists, for by & large it was physical force Republicans who were involved in the violence, not the vast majority of Nationalists.

I say again, I didn't invent the terms, its just been that way.

timthumbni

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Not only did Unionist terrorists stoop to the PIRA's level they were positively floors below it, deep in the basement of horror and evil.

They murdered people for nothing other than being born Catholic. Over 99% of the Glenanne Gang murders were innocent Catholics.

I'm not changing any terminology, I'm saying it as it was/is. For too long people like you and Tim have tried to pretend the Unionist terrorists in the security forces were upstanding members of the community while those in the paramilitary organisations they were part of, or colluded with, were a separate type of killer. No difference.

But didn't the terrorists in the Ira murder more than all the other so called players in the troubles put together?? It's weird for a so called minority community to do this is it not?? By your argument I should start referring to those in the Ira as nationalist terrorists. Thankfully I'm not influenced by republican excusing types on an Internet forum. ......