Twin Peaks (2017) [Showtime/Sky Atlantic] [ Spoilers ]

ixoy wrote: »

Also: What was the insect/frog thing? Is it carrying Laura's soul - was that Sarah Palmer that it climbed into? She was born though in 1946, which'd make her 10 in that sequence which seems a bit young.

I'd have to think it was carrying BOB. The Woodsman facilitated that event with his poem and killing the radio staff. Seems like a pretty evil act to provide a host for a good spirit. Although, you could say that the line between good and evil isn't always clear in a show as crazy as Twin Peaks is.

I read another interesting theory that the girl isn't Sarah Palmer, but rather the boy is Gordon Cole, and it's the apparent subsequent possession of his sweetheart that gives him a lifelong interest in the paranormal and which leads to his 'blue rose' cases in the FBI. Food for thought.

One interesting thought is that I don't think I've never actually seen a TP spirit entity appear in a tangible earthly form. This makes me wonder about the nature of the Woodsmen because at least one certainly appeared in a physical form, crushing the skull of a DJ and a secretary. Were they men possessed or something else entirely?

ixoy

WTF.

The OH is almost out after this episode but I've convinced him to give it another go. It's certainly memorable and there's been nothing remotely like it ever on TV that I'm aware of.

briany wrote: »

1) Am I right to assume that BOB was created during the Trinity test? As in the blast created some sort of philisophical ripple in existence that led to the creation of perhaps a number of entities, of which BOB was one?

Yeah, I'm assuming that was the creation of BOB or, if not that, then it created a rift between our world and another and BOB got through.

Was the soul of Laura Palmer sent to earth in a deliberate way? A pure spirit who was given to the world, and who was fated to meet with BOB?

Yeah, I agree with that. The weird dumb-bell thing was an alarm and the Giant births the soul/spirit of Laura. Not sure who the other spirit woman is that pushes Laura to earth. It also makes a bit more sense of the glowing bright Laura we see in FWWM.

3) Can I take it that BOB has now left Bad Cooper?

Not sure - maybe? I mean we were looking at an origin story here.

4) Were the Woodsmen also elemental type spirits who were created by the blast?

Not sure who the hell they were. Was that one of them last week in the morgue? And what were they doing at White Sands.

Also: What was the insect/frog thing? Is it carrying Laura's soul - was that Sarah Palmer that it climbed into? She was born though in 1946, which'd make her 10 in that sequence which seems a bit young.

pasta-solo

As much as this is great television, I really really wish I'd seen that episode in a cinema. So good!

RainMakerToo

Well that was pretty crazy alright!

I suppose to continue on my music related connections theme from last week, first thing i though of was this old video from "The Nine Inch Nails" as they were announced at the Bang Bang this week.

NSFW btw!!

I knew Reznor and Lynch had collaborated before, but didn't know until tonight that Lynch had directed a NIN video! So here's that one as well, this comes with an Epilepsy warning!

B_Wayne

That was the most extraordinary piece of television that I have ever seen. I think I'll watch it again during the week just to fully appreciate it.

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Well that wasn't an episode for those looking for some plot progression :pac:

Probably the most aesthetically extraordinary episode in the history of television - I don't say such things light, but that really was a hell of a trip.

briany wrote: »

So... Questions.

1) Am I right to assume that BOB was created during the Trinity test? As in the blast created some sort of philisophical ripple in existence that led to the creation of perhaps a number of entities, of which BOB was one?

2) Was the soul of Laura Palmer sent to earth in a deliberate way? A pure spirit who was given to the world, and who was fated to meet with BOB?

3) Can I take it that BOB has now left Bad Cooper?

4) Were the Woodsmen also elemental type spirits who were created by the blast?

I think the first one is a maybe. Second, I have absolutely no idea. Number 3, I don't think so. Fourth one is a maybe again. I'm not sure if I can be definite about anything after what I just watch.

So... Questions.

1) Am I right to assume that BOB was created during the Trinity test? As in the blast created some sort of philisophical ripple in existence that led to the creation of perhaps a number of entities, of which BOB was one?

2) Was the soul of Laura Palmer sent to earth in a deliberate way? A pure spirit who was given to the world, and who was fated to meet with BOB?

3) Can I take it that BOB has now left Bad Cooper?

4) Were the Woodsmen also elemental type spirits who were created by the blast?

ShaneU

Got a light?

Also Starring LeVar Burton

johnny_ultimate

Well, I've slept on that, and what can be said?

It truly was unlike anything that has yet been broadcast on TV, even by this series' thus far extraordinary standards. It was purely experimental in form, long stretches of glitchy, hostile sight & sound. It at times felt like a darker flip side and extension to the 2001 'beyond the infinite' section. It was at times as dreamily beautiful as it was nightmarishly unnerving.

If all of that meant nothing, it would still have been a hell of a watch and an accomplishment. But despite the abstraction, this feels like an episode that wants to summarise some of the core themes of the series, and indeed Lynch's filmography in its entirely. It is about humanity's dark side, and a lust for violence and destruction. It's about how that's countered by genuine goodness. It is, frankly, the oldest story of them all - but trust David Lynch and Mark Frost to make a basic 'good vs evil' story feel fresh again.

There's something very special about the approach to special effects in this show. It really does feel otherworldly - from that terrifying 'blood smearing' sequence to the CGI effects that boast uncommon presence. The recent David Lynch: The Art Life documentary shows the physicality with which Lynch approaches his artwork - even if much of this is digital in origin, he's managed to translate that weird tangibility to the visuals here.

I cannot stress how much I adore this show. It really is the programme I've always hoped television as a medium had in it, and it's surpassing all expectations.

What the actual f*** did I just watch? My brain hurts and I'm not entirely sure whether I was meant to understand any of that or not, but I still think I really liked it despite feeling somewhat violated and possibly brainwashed...

johnny_ultimate

Well that wasn't an episode for those looking for some plot progression :pac:

Probably the most aesthetically extraordinary episode in the history of television - I don't say such things light, but that really was a hell of a trip.

mzungu

riffmongous wrote: »

Sure, but for me and I'm not alone i think, the balance is wrong and too much weighted towards the artistic side.

I think they are starting to balance it out a bit more now, the last episode was straightforward (for Lynch anyway

) and if this season is to be treated as one long movie, it might be the case that it will shift between the artistic set piece and the conventional story

riffmongous wrote: »

For instance considering all the years we spent poring over every clue and reference on wikis and forums, analysing the mysteries, and now it's back and there's very little discussion about it at all.

It is different as to what it was back in the 90s, but the mystery is still there. One such example being the sound Ben and his secretary heard in Great Northern. I've come across lots of theorising in articles and there is loads on (American) discussion sites about this series and how it fits it with FWWM and S01 & 02.

Sad Professor wrote: »

It's more than just years Cooper has lost to bad Cooper. It's implied in the last episode that bad Cooper may have sexually assaulted Diane and possibly Audrey as well. And we don't know what other evil he has set in motion. I can't see Lynch just letting Cooper off the hook for that. At a minimum he will have to take responsibility for being tricked by Bob/badCoop.

I must have blanked out most of the second season because I forgot about Cooper's affair. I dunno, I still think Lynch sees Cooper as an overgrown boy-scout and as such not particularly interesting in himself. I'm not sure my Dougie theory will literally be the answer, but I think it might be a valuable way of understanding the good/bad Cooper divide and how it may be resolved.

If Dale sexually assaulted Diane, there's still the chance that Diane could reconcile this be recognising that it wasn't really her Cooper who did it. Already, she appears to have twigged that the man who sat before her wasn't really Dale. So, it's not a short leap to wonder if it was the same man that night. I'm not sure on the assault theory, but this is just for argument's sake. If Diane knew Dale to be a kind and virtuous man, who one night showed up and had his way with her, she could come to conclusion that something was very, very wrong.

On the Audrey angle, if Dale went to her hospital room and violated her in her comatose state....Well, it's about the skeeziest thing a man could do to another individual, but it's not exactly an act to ruin Dale's life because surely you'd want to commit an act that everyone saw so as to be incriminatory.

Beyond that, Bad Cooper appeared to go to ground after leaving Twin Peaks. Not in a literal sense, but in the sense that none of his activities alerted any authorities. He only just came back on the FBI radar. And already two of his colleagues are not sure if it's the real Dale Cooper, so if the real Dale Cooper came back, why'd he be held to account? He may have to live with any hurt Bad Coop caused, but I really don't know about taking any responsibility for it.

riffmongous wrote: »

I didn't think of it like that until now, I assumed it was just a one night stand before Coop left for Twin Peaks

Possibly, but I don't think she was acting like a spurned lover. She initially wanted nothing to do with him, yet she was still his secretary while he was in Twin Peaks 25 years earlier. She specifically references what happened that night rather than what didn't happen afterwards. If Cooper did something to hurt her I think he would have been sensitive enough to know it, but he was happily recording tapes for her as if nothing had happened.

Sad Professor wrote: »

It's more than just years Cooper has lost to bad Cooper. It's implied in the last episode that bad Cooper may have sexually assaulted Diane and possibly Audrey as well. And we don't know what other evil he has set in motion. I can't see Lynch just letting Cooper off the hook for that. At a minimum he will have to take responsibility for being tricked by Bob/badCoop.

I must have blanked out most of the second season because I forgot about Cooper's affair. I dunno, I still think Lynch sees Cooper as an overgrown boy-scout and as such not particularly interesting in himself. I'm not sure my Dougie theory will literally be the answer, but I think it might be a valuable way of understanding the good/bad Cooper divide and how it may be resolved.

I didn't think of it like that until now, I assumed it was just a one night stand before Coop left for Twin Peaks

briany wrote: »

Dale did do things which were not virtuous, or at least one - he conducted an affair with the wife of a former FBI colleague. I don't think Cooper's original characterisation had as much to do with the idea that he was a truly pure individual, but that the original Twin Peaks painted the FBI men as eccentrically one-dimensional. Therefore, I think Dale had a dark side to be drawn upon.

If Dougie were an alternate Dale, then it would make me wonder why MIKE said he was manufactured?An alternate, yet naturally-conceived Dale would surely still have some value in the spiritual realm. I have to think that Phillip Jeffries is at the center of the whole mystery.

If by ruining Dale's life you mean robbing him of 25 years, then yeah. If Dale comes around and gets to defeat Bad Cooper, then returning to Janey-E and being the husband that her unwavering loyalty would appear to deserve, would be a nice, if somewhat pat for Twin Peaks, type of ending.

It's more than just years Cooper has lost to bad Cooper. It's implied in the last episode that bad Cooper may have sexually assaulted Diane and possibly Audrey as well. And we don't know what other evil he has set in motion. I can't see Lynch just letting Cooper off the hook for that. At a minimum he will have to take responsibility for being tricked by Bob/badCoop.

I must have blanked out most of the second season because I forgot about Cooper's affair. I dunno, I still think Lynch sees Cooper as an overgrown boy-scout and as such not particularly interesting in himself. I'm not sure my Dougie theory will literally be the answer, but I think it might be a valuable way of understanding the good/bad Cooper divide and how it may be resolved.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Yeah but then what happened to Cooper when he entered the Lodge? Even if we don't doubt his courage, we have to assume he was tricked. And even a shadow self is part of who that person is - an manifestation of repressed memories and subconscious fears etc. But I have trouble imagining bad Cooper as being any part of good Cooper, whose purity in the original series was unassailable.

I also have a hard time getting my head around the idea that Dougie Jones and his whole life was just a manufactured decoy. I think there has to be more to him than that, even if it's just that he's an alternate reality Cooper who abandoned the virtuous path.

Even if good Cooper returns and bad Cooper is vanquished back to the Lodge, what happens then? I get the feeling bad Cooper has left Cooper's life in ruin to such an extent that there will be no going back to it, and that he may have no choice but to become Dougie Jones, but with all Cooper's virtuous qualities. That might be a nice ending actually.

Dale did do things which were not virtuous, or at least one - he conducted an affair with the wife of a former FBI colleague. I don't think Cooper's original characterisation had as much to do with the idea that he was a truly pure individual, but that the original Twin Peaks painted the FBI men as eccentrically one-dimensional. Therefore, I think Dale had a dark side to be drawn upon.

If Dougie were an alternate Dale, then it would make me wonder why MIKE said he was manufactured?An alternate, yet naturally-conceived Dale would surely still have some value in the spiritual realm. I have to think that Phillip Jeffries is at the center of the whole mystery.

If by ruining Dale's life you mean robbing him of 25 years, then yeah. If Dale comes around and gets to defeat Bad Cooper, then returning to Janey-E and being the husband that her unwavering loyalty would appear to deserve, would be a nice, if somewhat pat for Twin Peaks, type of ending.

briany wrote: »

Dougie turned into a pearl because MIKE said he was 'manufactured' and therefore that little pearl was all the substance he was worth inside the Lodges. What Hawk was referring to was his people's legend of 'The Dweller on the Threshold', presumably the shadow self. This is what ends up being Windom Earle's undoing when he steps into the Black Lodge.

Yeah but then what happened to Cooper when he entered the Lodge? Even if we don't doubt his courage, we have to assume he was tricked. And even a shadow self is part of who that person is - an manifestation of repressed memories and subconscious fears etc. But I have trouble imagining bad Cooper as being any part of good Cooper, whose purity in the original series was unassailable.

I also have a hard time getting my head around the idea that Dougie Jones and his whole life was just a manufactured decoy. I think there has to be more to him than that, even if it's just that he's an alternate reality Cooper who abandoned the virtuous path.

Even if good Cooper returns and bad Cooper is vanquished back to the Lodge, what happens then? I get the feeling bad Cooper has left Cooper's life in ruin to such an extent that there will be no going back to it, and that he may have no choice but to become Dougie Jones, but with all Cooper's virtuous qualities. That might be a nice ending actually.

Sad Professor wrote: »

I don't know, but I had a couple of thoughts about the pearl and what happened to Dougie:

I was reminded of what Hawke said about if you confront the Lodge with an imperfect courage it will destroy your soul. When Dougie entered the Lodge he was reduced to just the green ring and the golden pearl. I think the pearl might be his soul, but may be significant to Cooper in some way too. Dougie had no shoes on when got pulled into the Lodge, and so Cooper came through without his shoes as well. And Cooper seems to be missing something. His shoes obviously but possibly something else as well.

I was also thinking of the key in Mulholland Drive and how it causes Betty to disappear and soon after Rita too. And how Agent Desmond disappears in FWWM when he touches the ring.

Dougie turned into a pearl because MIKE said he was 'manufactured' and therefore that little pearl was all the substance he was worth inside the Lodges. What Hawk was referring to was his people's legend of 'The Dweller on the Threshold', presumably the shadow self. This is what ends up being Windom Earle's undoing when he steps into the Black Lodge.

briany wrote: »

If Dougie was the real guy, then why'd he turn into a pearl?

I don't know, but I had a couple of thoughts about the pearl and what happened to Dougie:

I was reminded of what Hawke said about if you confront the Lodge with an imperfect courage it will destroy your soul. When Dougie entered the Lodge he was reduced to just the green ring and the golden pearl. I think the pearl might be his soul, but may be significant to Cooper in some way too. Dougie had no shoes on when got pulled into the Lodge, and so Cooper came through without his shoes as well. And Cooper seems to be missing something. His shoes obviously but possibly something else as well.

I was also thinking of the key in Mulholland Drive and how it causes Betty to disappear and soon after Rita too. And how Agent Desmond disappears in FWWM when he touches the ring.

Sad Professor wrote: »

I'm speculating that old Cooper himself might have been the result of an encounter with the Lodge. Remember that Cooper was dreaming about the Lodge in season 1, long before he went there. And Laura had a vision telling her that good Cooper was in the Lodge even earlier. When she dies Cooper is already there as well. Obviously time is different in the Lodge. But Cooper was always a very idealised character. Nobody is that virtuous. In Mulholland Drive, Betty and Rita find out that they are both different sides of the same woman called Diane. Well maybe good Cooper and bad Cooper are different sides of Dougie Jones.

If Dougie was the real guy, then why'd he turn into a pearl?

riffmongous wrote: »

Wouldn't he just be old Cooper? Or you think that we will not see 'original personality' Cooper again?

I'm speculating that old Cooper himself might have been the result of an encounter with the Lodge. Remember that Cooper was dreaming about the Lodge in season 1, long before he went there. And Laura had a vision telling her that good Cooper was in the Lodge even earlier. When she dies Cooper is already there as well. Obviously time is different in the Lodge. But Cooper was always a very idealised character. Nobody is that virtuous. In Mulholland Drive, Betty and Rita find out that they are both different sides of the same woman called Diane. Well maybe good Cooper and bad Cooper are different sides of Dougie Jones.

Sad Professor wrote: »

I'm starting to think there's more to Dougie Jones than him being a decoy. I think if you merged good Cooper and bad Cooper together, Dougie is pretty close to what you would end up with. A lovable loser who sells insurance, gambles and cheats on his wife. In other words, Dougie Jones is what Cooper would be in real life. I always felt that when Cooper entered the Lodge he was split in two, but Cooper is so virtuous it's hard to imagine there was any evil in there. What if Dougie is the original Cooper? Kinda like the Mulholland Drive twist.

Wouldn't he just be old Cooper? Or you think that we will not see 'original personality' Cooper again? It was something I was thinking recently after rewatching the start of the first season last week, that the original Cooper would be very out of place in the current show as he used to have such an energy to everything he did. Either the current malaise that seems to be infecting most of the other characters in the show is related to his own current state (sometimes I actually wonder if he really made it back to the real universe, some of the people around him act so odd and don't notice how odd he acts) and when he snaps out of it so will everyone else, or it will stay the same and Cooper in which case I don't think he can return to his old self, the tone would just be too jarring.

On a slightly related noted, did anyone here ever play the game Alan Wake? It was very heavily influenced by Twin Peaks and

followed a similar idea with a 'evil' doppelganger of the main character (Mr. Scratch) being created while he is trapped in another dimension

I'm starting to think there's more to Dougie Jones than him being a decoy. I think if you merged good Cooper and bad Cooper together, Dougie is pretty close to what you would end up with. A lovable loser who sells insurance, gambles and cheats on his wife. In other words, Dougie Jones is what Cooper would be in real life. I always felt that when Cooper entered the Lodge he was split in two, but Cooper is so virtuous it's hard to imagine there was any evil in there. What if Dougie is the original Cooper? Kinda like the Mulholland Drive twist.

briany wrote: »

It's surprising to me that Jeffries would have been considered a main player in the revival and even more surprising that they wanted Bowie back to play him. Bowie was pretty bad in FWWM. That southern American accent he was doing, for starters, was comical, and his overall presentation at no point made me forget that it was Bowie acting a role, because he looked like he stepped off the set of one of his 80s videos.

Given that Bowie passed away, why not just re-cast the role. They recast Donna for FWWM and got away with it. Same could be done for Jeffries.

Bowie was expected to return but got sick, so maybe they did re-cast, we don't know. It's also been speculated that Bowie may have secretly shot some footage, but I think it's unlikely.

mzungu wrote: »

All part of the package, the "directorial wankery" is part of that magical formula that makes Twin Peaks what it is. Take that out of it and you have a lesser show.

Sure, but for me and I'm not alone i think, the balance is wrong and too much weighted towards the artistic side. For instance considering all the years we spent poring over every clue and reference on wikis and forums, analysing the mysteries, and now it's back and there's very little discussion about it at all.

mzungu

riffmongous wrote: »

I don't think people are necessarily missing the point so much as not agreeing with it, a lot of people loved Twin Peaks because of the story, characters and atmosphere rather than directorial wankery

All part of the package, the "directorial wankery" is part of that magical formula that makes Twin Peaks what it is. Take that out of it and you have a lesser show.