Gaoth Laidir wrote: » The best hurlers are on the sideline...
jimbis wrote: » I hope that is not aimed at me. But if so then you have taken me up wrong. I am in no way portraying myself as an expert in any way, more so pointing out the fact that most people on here have absolutely no idea what position, state or condition the craft and surrounding areas are like.
12gauge dave wrote: » Why would a helicopter travelling from dublin go 5/6 miles out into altlantic to turn around to go back to mainland to refuel? I dont understand this but i have no knowledge of aviation so work with me.
TomOnBoard wrote: » That question has been asked many times over the past few weeks on this thread and elsewhere. The answers I have seen suggest that: The flight from Dublin to Blacksod would have been on instruments; It would have been flown at at height of 4,000 ft; The cloud cover that night was down to 300-500 ft at/around the Mayo coast; It would be normal practise to start the descend from the 4,000 height out at Sea and fly into Blacksod at a contolled, known rate of descent, to break cloud cover out from Blacksod and fly in using visual as well as instruments. Now, the questions that have not been fully answered include: Why so far out? Why so close to Blackrock? What happened at/above Blackrock? To answered these questions would require speculation that is not useful at the moment as it is largely based on guesswork. However, as the voice/data recorder has been found and is being analysed, most of these answers are hopefully just days away. Hope this helps..
elastico wrote: » Has any official source confirmed that it's standard procedure for a rescue helicopter to overfly blacksod by approx. 12 Km's and be in the viscinity of blackrock island when starting a decent?
TomOnBoard wrote: » Have a look at post #1460 from IrishSteve that refers to Jurgen White saying there would be nothing unusual in such a manoeuvre. However, that was clearly based on it being at some height lower than 4000 as it had started its descent (as radioed to controller) but nothing like the subsequently reported altitude at Blackrock.
elastico wrote: » I listened again to Juergen whyte's prime time interview. Interview also played a clip from the crew saying they were at about 4000ft beginning their decent. All appeared normal at that point, almost 4000 ft. Above blackrock, exactly where they should have been, clear of any obstacle. It was reported in the same interview however that they were recorded flying at 220ft at some point after this.
Gaoth Laidir wrote: » It said that their last known altitude was 220 ft. I still don't understand this cloud-break procedure. Why must the descent start after coasting out? Why not start descending IFR earlier over land and use normal navigation to loop back in and break out of cloud much nearer to Blacksod, not 10 NM out? I'm not instrument-rated so excuse the ignorance.
Calina wrote: » I may have misunderstood but I thought the 220 feet was linked to the height of the island above sea level which, if they hit it, they had to have been at at some point, although the reasons for that remain unknown to the wider world.
elastico wrote: » At what point did they communicate that they were at 4000 ft beginning decent? This could have been 5 minutes prior to the crash and they could have been over achill island for example. Its not clear when that message was sent. Does anybody know?
Calina wrote: » I thought it was on the ATC transcript at around 12.45, no? I think that should still be available and i'm sure it's somewhere up thread.
TomOnBoard wrote: » The Irish Times reported that the last communication was received at 00:45.http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/rescue-116-crash-efforts-to-pinpoint-helicopter-s-black-box-signal-1.3012244?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Frescue-116-crash-efforts-to-pinpoint-helicopter-s-black-box-signal-1.3012244
elastico wrote: » Communication does not imply it was the last verbal contact though. This, albeit a bit tabloid, link suggests it was shortly after 12.30am that they verballed that they were beginning their decent from 4000ft.http://extra.ie/news/irish-news/revealed-final-words-coast-guard-helicopter-rescue-pilot This link shows what happened at 12.46am whilst flying at 90knots.https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/393913/411954.png
TomOnBoard wrote: » Was there not a radio contact with Shannon after the one about refuelling during which Shannon asked if they were intending going all the way out to the ship and R116 replied something like possibly and that they'd work or figure something out?
cosanostra wrote: » Listening to ATC archives at approx 0035 Rescue 116 "passing 4000ft now in the descent making our way into Blacksod for refueling" This was roughly 10mins before they reached blackrock
elastico wrote: » 00.35 communicated to Shannon they were beginning decent from 4000 ft to blacksod. 11 minutes later at 00.46, whilst down to 220ft they crashed into blackrock at 92knots.
Irish Steve wrote: » To clarify the descent process, based on comments I have both seen and read elsewhere, and on operational practice, the cloud break procedure is effectively an ILS style approach, using a similar descent profile to an ILS, which from around 3000 Ft would need something close to 8 miles to perform. As I understand it, they normally use a final descent point that is at least 2 miles from the coast, to ensure clearance from terrain, so in many respect, the ideal area for that procedure would be to go outbound to Blackrock, then fly a procedure turn, which can be in any direction, but usually offset from the outbound course by 45 degrees, and then I would have expected them to descend to 3000 ft after completing the turn, with Blackrock being the point where they would turn inbound and start the descent towards Blacksod, while it's not aiming for a landing point in the same way, it's pretty much identical in terms of profile and distances to a standard instrument approach to a runway for landing, so the "feel" of the aircraft in terms of speeds and descent rates would have been pretty much the same as they were used to using on a regular basis when returning to base for landing, or when looking to make contact with a vessel on the surface. They were also trying to make radio contact with the other aircraft, so going outbound and then to the North West would have given then the best chance to be able to receive a signal from the other craft involved, and at around 4000 Ft, they should still have had contact with Shannon. Operationally, there's nothing about their plan that looks even slightly unusual, and it would not have been the first time they would have used that procedure or one very similar to it to get into Blacksod for fuel. They would not have flown a direct track from Blackrock towards Blacksod, as that would have meant going closer to land masses that could represent a hazard, the inbound track being the reciprocal of the outbound track is clear of obstacles at the later stages, with the final approach then being to turn towards Blacksod once clear of cloud and with positive visual contact with the sea and/or land, and probably with Blacksod lighthouse as well for confirmation. And yes, in passing, that suggests to me that Blackrock was in their database, and they were using it as a confirmation of their position in relation to the task, their prime principal would be exactly the same as in any other IFR flying, (fixed wing or rotary wing) never depend on one navigation aid or system for confirmation of position, always have a second system or process that confirms you are where you intend to be.
flazio wrote: » Okay, obvious question is obvious here, but was the lighthouse working at the time?
