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Is Ireland really a nation of animal lovers?

JupiterKid

I've heard that Ireland doesn't have great form historically when it comes to animal welfare. I've also heard that animal cruelty and neglect cases have been decreasing in the past 20 years but that these rates were appalling in the 1970s and 1980s. Why is this? The UK is known as a nation of animal lovers. Is this true? Are we playing catch up?

There was a brief debate on vegansim on Claire Byrne live this evening and there was some voiceriferous support for veganism but not that much to back up their claims.

Thoughts?

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ScumLord

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Animal abuse is animal abuse regardless of whether or not you've got food at the end of it.

Nature is full of animal abuse so. Lions abusing Buffalos, Dogs abusing cats, sharks abusing anything they feel like.

Thelomen Toblackai

ScumLord wrote: »

Nature is full of animal abuse so. Lions abusing Buffalos, Dogs abusing cats, sharks abusing anything they feel like.

So you think you are justified in doing something because wild animals do it ? Is that seriously the level you hold yourself to ?

Cupcake_Crisis

me_right_one wrote: »

This is one of the most clueless, ignorant, and patronizing things I have ever read on Boards.ie.

Have you ever heard of the REPS scheme, where wildlife are specifically given protected strips of land at the farmers expense? Or the Bovine TB eradication scheme, where cattle are treated better than people in some poorer countries by having annual tests for TB and various other diseases? Incidentally, that scheme was started 60 years ago. I bet you've no idea about the hundreds of horse and donkey shelters up and down the country either, ran by thousands volunteers purely to give a comfortable life to old and ownerless horses and donkeys. Or the Traceability system that ensures there has to be a responsible human at the end of the line for every farm animals life, who has to be able to vouch for every incident in that animals life from conception to slaughter, whether it be a medical visit, a change of shed or field, or a day out at a show.

Ireland has one of the BEST animal rights records in the world. We are held up as a shining example among other EU countries. The irony is that our people are not treated as well as our animals. If a cow falls pregnant and cant/wont accept the calf, we have the technology to implant the calf into a willing cow, but if that was a perfectly healthy pro-abortion woman with a perfectly healthy baby, she would rather kill it. And you will NEVER find a homeless domesticated animal wandering around sleeping in doorways.

But of course, I'm not that wealthy and from the country. So I must also be uneducated and cruel to animals. What would I know:rolleyes:

We are in our holes held up as a shining examples.

Ireland has basically industrialised puppy farming, and the government does nothing about it. Animal charities are also limited in what they can do because of how much of a grey area our welfare laws are. A man literally beat his dog to death in broad daylight and walked away Scott free.

And you never see stray animals? Are you mad? Not only do you see stray animals, you see them being abused by kids before being picked up. You see horses being drowned, cats thrown into fires, dogs with fireworks stuck in their mouths.

The majority of us would never consider hurting an animal, but do not kid yourself that we are a beacon of animal welfare. Because we're far from it.

freshpopcorn

Most people I know who keeps pets keep them in very good condition. Same with farmers. I think sometimes people involved in animal welfare rub people up the wrong way though(mainly when they put animals above people)
I know somebody and a few years ago a stray cat wondered into them and had kittens. They did their best with the cat and kittens but they were to much for them to take on because they all ready had their own. They were into animal welfare and would help out the local charities and give donations. They rang up *****(Won't say who it was) to know would they take in the kittens or could they help with the re-homing of them. They told her to take the kittens away from home and leave them off in the middle of a field. She really lost respect for them that day.

Shenshen

I volunteer for fundraising for a local animal charity. Since I started that, I've learned that animal welfare laws in this country are very vague at best, and enforcement of them is practically non-existent.

Yes, the majority of people would never wilfully inflict pain of suffering on an animal. Yet, there are still plenty of people around who will happily set fire to kittens, put firecrackers in dogs' mouths, or simply abandon animals they're responsible for when they tire of them or simply don't want to pay for a vet. If they don't decide outright to beat the animal to death to avoid costs.
And legally, there is precious little that can be done to stop them, unfortunately.

Snugglebunnies

I work in a dog rescue and I honestly say from the state of dog's when they arrive and the sheer amount of dogs dumped with us we are not a nation of animal lovers.

Shenshen

Snugglebunnies wrote: »

I work in a dog rescue and I honestly say from the state of dog's when they arrive and the sheer amount of dogs dumped with us we are not a nation of animal lovers.

I think what I find upsetting about the situation is not so much that some people will treat animals in such a way - there will always be a percentage of any given population who are basically viscious and sadistic arseholes. That's just to be expected.
What I find shocking is the lack of legislation trying to put boundaries to these people, and the even greater lack of enforcement of the little bits of legislation there is. I'm actually astounded that there isn't a public demand to improve this legislation at all.

Other countries have political parties which have animal welfare as one of their most important issues, but you just don't see that here.

Snugglebunnies

Shenshen wrote:

I think what I find upsetting about the situation is not so much that some people will treat animals in such a way - there will always be a percentage of any given population who are basically viscious and sadistic arseholes. That's just to be expected. What I find shocking is the lack of legislation trying to put boundaries to these people, and the even greater lack of enforcement of the little bits of legislation there is. I'm actually astounded that there isn't a public demand to improve this legislation at all.

Its ridiculous, it makes me so angry. Myself and my workmates give out about animal welfare legislation constantly.

If anyone thinks that we don't have animal welfare issues in Ireland, volunteer at a rescue for a day and you'll quickly change your tune!

archer22

We also allow Hare coursing and the other lot who dress up to charge around the countryside with a pack of Dogs chasing and shredding our wild animals and calling those vile evil deeds "Sport".
And worse they get taxpayers money from the government.

No Ireland is not a good place for any Animal to have the misfortune to be born.

big b

Sad to see the same old deflections getting used:

"I know 2 fellas who love their dog, so you can't say we're not a nation of animal lovers"

"Another country has a problem too, so it's not right that people criticise Ireland"

Such pedantry isn't going to help anyone or anything. It's not how we measure up against other stats that really matters, it's how we measure up as decent human beings.

Irish Guitarist

I know a few animal lovers. However when it comes to people in authority doing anything about animal abuse it's another matter. There's a halting site by the river here where you see horses starving to death. It's heartbreaking to see horses tied up to trees unable to get a drink of water with their rib cages visible through their flesh. I know a couple of people who try their best to do something about this, including my cousin who brings them water every day. There's nothing you can really do about it though. If you phone the guards they tell you to phone the ISPCA. If you phone the ISPCA you don't get through and have to keep calling back. Eventually you might get through to the Dublin branch (I'm in Carlow) but they won't do much about it.

jooksavage

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Animal abuse is animal abuse regardless of whether or not you've got food at the end of it.

I don't think it should be a case of "you eat meat so you're part of the problem so don't bother trying to help". That would only stunt the advancement of animal welfare.

Your Face

I thought animal-loving was illegal.

Galwayguy35

I think we have improved a lot as regards animal welfare but the laws need to be a lot tougher for people who hurt animals.

I remember as a kid seeing foxes trapped in snares because the fur was worth a few quid back then, they could be in them for hours and met their end with a few whacks of a stick.

Thankfully we've moved on from that but fox hunting is still very popular here where I live with people coming from all over the country to take part in it, this should be banned IMO.

dodderangler

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I think we have improved a lot as regards animal welfare but the laws need to be a lot tougher for people who hurt animals.

I remember as a kid seeing foxes trapped in snares because the fur was worth a few quid back then, they could be in them for hours and met their end with a few whacks of a stick.

Thankfully we've moved on from that but fox hunting is still very popular here where I live with people coming from all over the country to take part in it, this should be banned IMO.

Fox hunting with hundreds of dogs and a few fat lads on horseback should be banned. But I shoot foxes here in Dublin and parts of Wicklow. They need to be seriously thinned out. Way to many about and other animals are taking a hit because of it. Same with mink

Galwayguy35

dodderangler wrote: »

Fox hunting with hundreds of dogs and a few fat lads on horseback should be banned. But I shoot foxes here in Dublin and parts of Wicklow. They need to be seriously thinned out. Way to many about and other animals are taking a hit because of it. Same with mink

I agree that fox numbers need to be controlled, in fact it benefits the animals as well in the long run as there is less competition for food and as long as they don't suffer like I saw happen as a kid then no issue here.

fizzypish

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

So you think you are justified in doing something because wild animals do it ? Is that seriously the level you hold yourself to ?

I find some serious juxtaposition (yes I had to look it up) between your animal cruelty stance and your user name (fantasy character that went around the place butchering 90% of the beings it met, bit of a rapist too....).

Irish people don't abuse animals more or less than anyone else. Bar radically shifting what we eat, our farming practices are going to continue. Is chicken/pig farming abuse? Yup but I'm not gonna start spouting this till I at least stop eating this produce, come up with an alternative and actively do something myself.

Stonedpilot

JupiterKid wrote: »

I've heard that Ireland doesn't have great form historically when it comes to animal welfare. I've also heard that animal cruelty and neglect cases have been decreasing in the past 20 years but that these rates were appalling in the 1970s and 1980s. Why is this? The UK is known as a nation of animal lovers. Is this true? Are we playing catch up?

There was a brief debate on vegansim on Claire Byrne live this evening and there was some voiceriferous support for veganism but not that much to back up their claims.

Thoughts?

No we arent
Lot of dog fighting goes on in Ireland that people are unaware of.

Big money is on the outcome by some people who are professionals many times.

Seanachai

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I've heard this quite a lot. My sister is a vet who relocated to Ireland after a few years' practice in the U.K. She always says she was shocked at how far Brits will go in spending money on their pets, compared to in Ireland, where we take a more utilitarian approach to our pets, probably on account of the fact that we are very much a rural society with a much more practical approach to animals.

For example, pet insurance is a relatively new concept in Ireland. It's been common in the UK since the 1990s. Similarly, almost all of the animal welfare people who come to my sister's practice in Ireland are female, middle-aged British expats. Interesting, isn't it?

As we grow more urbanised, I suspect we are becoming more and more like the Brits in being 'precious' about our pets, which I don't necessarily agree is a good thing.

I love domestic animals, but if my dog has cancer or an old horse gets repeated, serious colics, I would not for one moment hesitate to put them out of pain by euthanasia.

I would also be slow to call the vet every time a dog gets a bump or a bruise or goes a bit lame. It's a practical approach to animals, informed by a farming background, which many people would share, especially in rural areas.

In many respects, I think the British obsession with their pets is a symptom of a society where individualism reigns, and people are increasingly isolated from their communities. I don't look upon this tendency as a healthy development at all, I'm afraid.

I'm from a rural background and any pets at home are almost considered to be members of the family. They're not waking around in diamante collars with jackets like I've seen, but the cat got poisoned recently and about €500 was spent on treating it. The terrier has to be put out in the kennel when everybody goes to work and heated blankets are put in his house. I have a friend who loves horses and I've seen him spend nights in a stable pen with a sick horse and even though he's a tough guy who grew up hard knocks, he was beside himself when it died.

I've seen mistreatment of animals firsthand close to home and it made me sick, I get what you're saying about pets replacing human relationships being unhealthy though.

Sam Kade

Thelomen Toblackai wrote: »

Animal abuse is animal abuse regardless of whether or not you've got food at the end of it.

Are you a vegan? Do you want all animals to run wild or maybe make all farm animals extinct? Either way you still don't know what animal cruelty is.

[Deleted User]

dodderangler wrote: »

Fox hunting with hundreds of dogs and a few fat lads on horseback should be banned. But I shoot foxes here in Dublin and parts of Wicklow. They need to be seriously thinned out. Way to many about and other animals are taking a hit because of it. Same with mink

The funniest thing about that statement is that shooting foxes is statistically more likely to result in injured and maimed animals dying in agony, maybe starvation, than foxhunting, in which the animal either escapes outright or is killed outright.

Hunting is much fairer to Mr Fox than shooting him! Of course he'd prefer to live, but as you say, the fox population needs to be controlled. Better to give him a fair contest than to shoot him from a distance and managing to fuck it up.

It's great exercise too. Not many "fat lads" ride horses, although that's a slightly ludicrous reference. Is the argument against hunting so weak and illogical that you must resort to calling your opponents fatties? Are you fourteen?

Galwayguy35

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

The funniest thing about that statement is that shooting foxes is statistically more likely to result in injured and maimed animals dying in agony, maybe starvation, than foxhunting, in which the animal either escapes outright or is killed outright.

Hunting is much fairer to Mr Fox than shooting him! Of course he'd prefer to live, but as you say, the fox population needs to be controlled. Better to give him a fair contest than to shoot him from a distance and managing to fuck it up.

It's great exercise too. Not many "fat lads" ride horses, although that's a slightly ludicrous reference. Is the argument against hunting so weak and illogical that you must resort to calling your opponents fatties? Are you fourteen?

You don't seem to know much about fox hunting, a fox being chased by dogs who rip it to pieces if it's not able to escape in time.

Other animals like deer also chased if the dogs come across them during the chase and sometimes the hunt crosses farmland and livestock are put under stress.

Sometimes a dog will get lost and ends up wandering the roads for a few days before it goes into a farmers land and gets a bullet in the head.

Ban it and the sooner the better.

Seanachai

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You don't seem to know much about fox hunting, a fox being chased by dogs who rip it to pieces if it's not able to escape in time.

Other animals like deer also chased if the dogs come across them during the chase and sometimes the hunt crosses farmland and livestock are put under stress.

Sometimes a dog will get lost and ends up wandering the roads for a few days before it goes into a farmers land and gets a bullet in the head.

Ban it and the sooner the better.

Then there's the snares in ditches where the fox is unable to move without the noose tightening. They sometimes have to wait for long periods before they get shot.

Galwayguy35

Seanachai wrote: »

Then there's the snares in ditches where the fox is unable to move without the noose tightening. They sometimes have to wait for long periods before they get shot.

Yep I've seen this first hand when I was a kid when they used to get money for the fur, don't see it any more but I'm sure it still happens unfortunately.

Tar.Aldarion

Here is a good speech that was researched on the topic of Irish animals, this was made last year at vegvest by a guest speaker. They put a lot of effort into getting the facts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBy5BqCv4us

00:00 Opening & framing
00:39 Imagine If
03:21 Speaker Intro
03:38 The Challenge
04:10 I Won't Make You Vegan
04:30 Behind Closed Doors
05:18 Ireland Disclaimer
05:45 Source of Facts
06:18 Definition of Vegan
06:47 Vegan Extremism
07:10 It's Not Like That Here
08:27 What IS It Like?
09:30 You Deserve The Truth
09:59 SOPs & Humane Regulations
11:04 Ireland's Population
11:27 Ireland's Output & Consumption
12:18 Ireland's PIG Industry
12:58 Processing Piglets
13:30 Mother Pigs
15:11 Ireland Non-Compliance
15:26 Undercover Pig Investigation
16:26 Highest Standards
17:55 Pig Stats
18:31 Irish CHICKENS & EGGS
20:18 Battery Cages & EU Ban Explained
22:00 Alice & Joy
23:14 Free-Range/Cage-Free
23:52 What Happens To Baby Boys?
24:43 Ireland's Laws For Grinding Chicks
25:52 Why Don't People Know?
26:21 Ireland's Chicken Death Toll & Methods
26:50 Bacterial Outbreak
27:16 COWS of Ireland
27:51 DAIRY
30:26 VEAL
30:57 Mothers Of Dairy
31:33 Mutilation
32:31 The Pus We Drink
33:00 Our Rationalizations
34:32 Irish (LIVE) EXPORTS
3540: Irish IMPORTS
36:20 Consumer Awareness
37:12 Our Absurd Contradictions
39:11 Profound ILLogic
39:58 THE BEST WE HAVE TO OFFER?
40:29 There's Another Option!
41:02 Footage Intro W/Question
41:37 FOOTAGE Of LEGAL PRACTICES
45:15 End of Footage Message
46:22 CO2 Chambers & Corruption
47:15 HEALTH IMPACT - Heart Disease, Kids, Obesity
48:38 ENVIRONMENT & OCEAN
51:15 Grass-Fed & Land
51:55 Personal Choice & Global Crisis
52:20 Saving Ireland
53:00 Traditions Are Not Justifications
53:27 The Good News - You Decide
54:54 Additional Vids

[Deleted User]

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You don't seem to know much about fox hunting, a fox being chased by dogs who rip it to pieces if it's not able to escape in time.

This is hilarious. I've been riding to hounds since I was a child, and you betray your own unfamiliarity with hunting by such emotionally loaded language.

First of all, given the size and strength disparity between a hound and his quarry, it takes no more than a couple of seconds for insensibility and death to occur. When a fox is killed overground, it is true that the pack will tear apart its carcass, but by this time, the fox is long dead. I don't very well understand why some people get so emotionally worked-up about how a fox's carcass is treated. Many of the same people probably gorge on intensely-farmed chicken, which creatures know a lot more of pain and suffering than any hunted fox!

In many cases, especially in upland parts of Ireland, the fox isn't even killed overground, but runs to ground and, if he is not flushed out to escape, is humanely destroyed, well away from the pack. It would be a breach of the Code of Conduct of the Irish Masters of Foxhounds Association, which is the governing body for hunting in Ireland, for any hound to attack a fox in that situation. He must humanely destroyed. This is a standard practice.

I don't mean to get into an argument about the rights and wrongs of hunting, but so many people allow their instinctive feelings and emotions to rule their mind on this topic. It may seem intuitively cruel, but foxhunting is one of the most effective, and the most certain and most humane methods, of the necessary work of culling foxes

.......

This post has been deleted.

archer22

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

This is hilarious. I've been riding to hounds since I was a child, and you betray your own unfamiliarity with hunting by such emotionally loaded language.

First of all, given the size and strength disparity between a hound and his quarry, it takes no more than a couple of seconds for insensibility and death to occur. When a fox is killed overground, it is true that the pack will tear apart its carcass, but by this time, the fox is long dead. I don't very well understand why some people get so emotionally worked-up about how a fox's carcass is treated. Many of the same people probably gorge on intensely-farmed chicken, which creatures know a lot more of pain and suffering than any hunted fox!

In many cases, especially in upland parts of Ireland, the fox isn't even killed overground, but runs to ground and, if he is not flushed out to escape, is humanely destroyed, well away from the pack. It would be a breach of the Code of Conduct of the Irish Masters of Foxhounds Association, which is the governing body for hunting in Ireland, for any hound to attack a fox in that situation. He must humanely destroyed. This is a standard practice.

I don't mean to get into an argument about the rights and wrongs of hunting, but so many people allow their instinctive feelings and emotions to rule their mind on this topic. It may seem intuitively cruel, but foxhunting is one of the most effective, and the most certain and most humane methods, of the necessary work of culling foxes

We are not as ignorant of the subject as you might think

.
"but runs to ground and, if he is not flushed out to escape, is humanely destroyed, well away from the pack"....you forgot to explain that the 'humanely destroyed" part involves spade men and Terriers, and I think there is no need explain further what that involves other than to state..it ain't pretty :mad:.

Seanachai

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

This is hilarious. I've been riding to hounds since I was a child, and you betray your own unfamiliarity with hunting by such emotionally loaded language.

First of all, given the size and strength disparity between a hound and his quarry, it takes no more than a couple of seconds for insensibility and death to occur. When a fox is killed overground, it is true that the pack will tear apart its carcass, but by this time, the fox is long dead. I don't very well understand why some people get so emotionally worked-up about how a fox's carcass is treated. Many of the same people probably gorge on intensely-farmed chicken, which creatures know a lot more of pain and suffering than any hunted fox!

In many cases, especially in upland parts of Ireland, the fox isn't even killed overground, but runs to ground and, if he is not flushed out to escape, is humanely destroyed, well away from the pack. It would be a breach of the Code of Conduct of the Irish Masters of Foxhounds Association, which is the governing body for hunting in Ireland, for any hound to attack a fox in that situation. He must humanely destroyed. This is a standard practice.

I don't mean to get into an argument about the rights and wrongs of hunting, but so many people allow their instinctive feelings and emotions to rule their mind on this topic. It may seem intuitively cruel, but foxhunting is one of the most effective, and the most certain and most humane methods, of the necessary work of culling foxes

You say that the fox is killed quickly, in ideal circumstances that is. How are the public to know that guidelines are being followed? Foxhunting seems to be a pretty insular world, so we have to rely on the scrutiny of this IMFHA for reassurance that the kill is quick. Unless random post mortems are carried out by independent bodies, how are we to know for sure that the hounds are actually carrying out a swift kill?

Thelomen Toblackai

fizzypish wrote: »

I find some serious juxtaposition (yes I had to look it up) between your animal cruelty stance and your user name (fantasy character that went around the place butchering 90% of the beings it met, bit of a rapist too....).

Just as you calling yourself "fizzy piss" is in juxtaposition with you expecting people to take you seriously then ? And he didn't kill 90% of things he met. He only killed his enemies...

Irish people don't abuse animals more or less than anyone else. Bar radically shifting what we eat, our farming practices are going to continue. Is chicken/pig farming abuse? Yup but I'm not gonna start spouting this till I at least stop eating this produce, come up with an alternative and actively do something myself.

Why not stop eating it then if you see it as animal abuse ?